Slow players play slow. Changing the pace of the greens will just mean bad putters leave putts short, and slow players play slow. There are so many ways to play slow, and on the greens is just one of the myriad ways.
Green speeds, putts per round, and pace of play
Smallville
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You haven't played our course. I've personally gone out and had groups let others through.
Letting groups through isn't the end all to the situation though. You want groups to pick up the pace, not let people through, because letting groups through means the group who is already slow, is now standing around for six to eight minutes while the group they let through hits their first shots, and then their second shots. All the while, more groups are coming up behind them.
I generally prefer quicker greens. There is much more to slow play than green speed. Contour, speed, pin placement, and green design all are factors. Not playing ready golf, not preparing for your put while others are putting, and outrageous pre-shot routines are much more impactful on pace of play.
Agreed. Thanks for doing your best to improve the game.
But how do we, with respect to all, get the pace of play to the 4 or 4.5 hour mark.
Ideas any one
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There is no doubt imo that greens play is one of the biggest reasons for pace issues. So I don't think the OP's thoughts are far misplaced. I didn't vote yet because I cant decide if the speed of the greens is as much a detriment towards pace as is the players who have horribly slow habits on and near the greens. I guess the idea is that since the greens play habits of many are indeed too slow then if greens are more difficult it further delays them even more. More difficult, the more careful one must be, and still more missed putts, and also the further off those misses are. It takes everyone longer including those who are already painfully slow at greens play to begin with.
Its a good point. But like as been mentioned, greens play (close in chipping/pitching and of course putting) were slow years ago too. And even Jack was known to be very slow on the greens. I guess in the end its the person on the greens much more than it is the conditions of the greens. Things like not finishing after lag putting, picking up and marking every single putt, slowly realigning and over analyzing all of it, and never putting out of turn for sake of pace, etc, etc.. but again more difficult just means more of all of this and is why I am on the fence.
Some feel that speedy greens is only relevant and is just a matter of getting use to it and therefore not a factor. Others cant get use to it and feel its too difficult.
On a separate note - What I don't get in this thread is when some mentioned "high end" course as though there is some sort of reason there to not be held to the same thoughts. I don't know how any that idea helps anything. Whether the greens speed idea is right, wrong, or indifferent, I'm just not sure what is meant for the ok of a "high end" course being different.
Its a good point. But like as been mentioned, greens play (close in chipping/pitching and of course putting) were slow years ago too. And even Jack was known to be very slow on the greens. I guess in the end its the person on the greens much more than it is the conditions of the greens. Things like not finishing after lag putting, picking up and marking every single putt, slowly realigning and over analyzing all of it, and never putting out of turn for sake of pace, etc, etc.. but again more difficult just means more of all of this and is why I am on the fence.
Some feel that speedy greens is only relevant and is just a matter of getting use to it and therefore not a factor. Others cant get use to it and feel its too difficult.
On a separate note - What I don't get in this thread is when some mentioned "high end" course as though there is some sort of reason there to not be held to the same thoughts. I don't know how any that idea helps anything. Whether the greens speed idea is right, wrong, or indifferent, I'm just not sure what is meant for the ok of a "high end" course being different.
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What I see from everyone is "practice more", "pick up the pace", "get rid of the long pre-shot routines" that are caused by the PGA tour players. In a perfect world.
But let's not kid ourselves. If we include those who don't keep official handicaps, over half of the golfers out there can't break 100. The preshot routine may not be based on what they saw Tiger do on TV ten years ago, but may be just getting their mind ready so they don't lose a dozen Noodles during a round. They don't take lessons. And over half their drives end up either duck hooked or sliced off into the woods. Most end up in the rough. They're playing from the blue "men's" tees for machismo. They may be out with their kid who can't drive the ball more than 140 yds and he's also playing from the blues. Both these people should be playing from the red tees mis-termed "ladies" tees.
They've tried "Tee it forward" and that initiative failed because it's based on distance not on ability. Someone hit a 260 yd drive once and they think they should play from the blue tees. No one wants to admit they hit their average drive under 200 yds. especially with these monster heads.
I still think stimping the greens to a max of 9 in non-tournament conditions would help the average mid to higher handicapper play a little faster, but it's not the whole answer. Not only that it saves on water and chemicals, making the course a little more eco-friendly. Water is becoming a very important issue.
We've cut down the rough and that hasn't helped. We've cleared out the underbrush in woods and that hasn't helped other than make sure no poison ivy or poison oak takes hold.
Another thing that was suggested was getting rid of fairway bunkers - these things are at the typical driving distance of most golfers. Better golfers drive past them, but I don't think this is the answer either. Removal of tree blocking the forward exit from Fairway bunkers? Yes, that would help a lot. Some courses I've played have these. Long forced carries? Yes, that would help.
Changing the bunker rule allowing people to drop the ball outside behind the bunker at a cost of one stroke if they keep a line from where the ball was in the bunker and the hole with no limitation as to how far back they can drop would speed up play. Reason: bunkers are hazards, and they're the only hazard on the course that you have to drop inside if your ball unplayable. In a lateral hazard, if your ball is unplayable, you have a few different options available that do not involve hitting the ball from inside the hazard and a lateral hazard does not have to be filled with water. Most people suck at hitting out of bunkers and take a couple strokes or more. This would save time for those people.
A lot of courses were designed with a par 3 on the second hole - this is a terrible bottleneck, especially if the men's tee is 190 yds. That's a 3H for a lot of people which is not an accurate club.
Another thing is that the majority of golfers can't control their drivers. The drives always go into the trees on one side or another on over half of the holes. Most people who play on the course aren't good enough to hit a driver. Many people can't hit club that has less loft than a 6 iron. But acknowledging this fact would be detrimental to the game. A player who cannot break 100 should IMO play from the red tees and tee off with a 6 or 7 iron and play around the course like that. The goal is to bogey every hole on the course. They don't need to play a single fairway wood all the way around. If they can get a reasonable distance like 140 yds with their 7 iron, I can almost guarantee they'll end up with a score around 94 and be done with their round in around 3.5 hours. They may even par a short par 4 to offset a double bogeys, maybe not but I doubt they'll have balloon holes, because hitting a 7 iron 140 yds up the fairway is better than rolling a topped 3W 40 yds.
As the person gets better, they move back to the senior tees and use their 3W off the tee. Then when they get better move back to the white tees and they can play their drivers.
But it's not fun to play this way. That's the problem with this. You'll never get anyone to do it because no guy is ever going to play from the red tees unless they're instructing a woman. So we have to live with band aids. One of the band aids is to make putting easier for the average player. Or we continue to suffer with long rounds on weekends. Marshalls aren't going to run paying customers off the course for slow play because courses need the revenue.
The USGA should have thought about this when they banned the anchored stroke, too. They could have banned it for professional competition. In basketball they have a three point line. In high school, it's 19' 9". In College it's 20' 9". In Europe (FIBA) and the WNBA it's 22.1'. In the NBA it's 23' 9". You can have different standards for different levels.
But let's not kid ourselves. If we include those who don't keep official handicaps, over half of the golfers out there can't break 100. The preshot routine may not be based on what they saw Tiger do on TV ten years ago, but may be just getting their mind ready so they don't lose a dozen Noodles during a round. They don't take lessons. And over half their drives end up either duck hooked or sliced off into the woods. Most end up in the rough. They're playing from the blue "men's" tees for machismo. They may be out with their kid who can't drive the ball more than 140 yds and he's also playing from the blues. Both these people should be playing from the red tees mis-termed "ladies" tees.
They've tried "Tee it forward" and that initiative failed because it's based on distance not on ability. Someone hit a 260 yd drive once and they think they should play from the blue tees. No one wants to admit they hit their average drive under 200 yds. especially with these monster heads.
I still think stimping the greens to a max of 9 in non-tournament conditions would help the average mid to higher handicapper play a little faster, but it's not the whole answer. Not only that it saves on water and chemicals, making the course a little more eco-friendly. Water is becoming a very important issue.
We've cut down the rough and that hasn't helped. We've cleared out the underbrush in woods and that hasn't helped other than make sure no poison ivy or poison oak takes hold.
Another thing that was suggested was getting rid of fairway bunkers - these things are at the typical driving distance of most golfers. Better golfers drive past them, but I don't think this is the answer either. Removal of tree blocking the forward exit from Fairway bunkers? Yes, that would help a lot. Some courses I've played have these. Long forced carries? Yes, that would help.
Changing the bunker rule allowing people to drop the ball outside behind the bunker at a cost of one stroke if they keep a line from where the ball was in the bunker and the hole with no limitation as to how far back they can drop would speed up play. Reason: bunkers are hazards, and they're the only hazard on the course that you have to drop inside if your ball unplayable. In a lateral hazard, if your ball is unplayable, you have a few different options available that do not involve hitting the ball from inside the hazard and a lateral hazard does not have to be filled with water. Most people suck at hitting out of bunkers and take a couple strokes or more. This would save time for those people.
A lot of courses were designed with a par 3 on the second hole - this is a terrible bottleneck, especially if the men's tee is 190 yds. That's a 3H for a lot of people which is not an accurate club.
Another thing is that the majority of golfers can't control their drivers. The drives always go into the trees on one side or another on over half of the holes. Most people who play on the course aren't good enough to hit a driver. Many people can't hit club that has less loft than a 6 iron. But acknowledging this fact would be detrimental to the game. A player who cannot break 100 should IMO play from the red tees and tee off with a 6 or 7 iron and play around the course like that. The goal is to bogey every hole on the course. They don't need to play a single fairway wood all the way around. If they can get a reasonable distance like 140 yds with their 7 iron, I can almost guarantee they'll end up with a score around 94 and be done with their round in around 3.5 hours. They may even par a short par 4 to offset a double bogeys, maybe not but I doubt they'll have balloon holes, because hitting a 7 iron 140 yds up the fairway is better than rolling a topped 3W 40 yds.
As the person gets better, they move back to the senior tees and use their 3W off the tee. Then when they get better move back to the white tees and they can play their drivers.
But it's not fun to play this way. That's the problem with this. You'll never get anyone to do it because no guy is ever going to play from the red tees unless they're instructing a woman. So we have to live with band aids. One of the band aids is to make putting easier for the average player. Or we continue to suffer with long rounds on weekends. Marshalls aren't going to run paying customers off the course for slow play because courses need the revenue.
The USGA should have thought about this when they banned the anchored stroke, too. They could have banned it for professional competition. In basketball they have a three point line. In high school, it's 19' 9". In College it's 20' 9". In Europe (FIBA) and the WNBA it's 22.1'. In the NBA it's 23' 9". You can have different standards for different levels.
ntanygd760
Well-known member
I may be missing something but how does slowing greens down save water?
I understand the thoughts behind this, but I think the frustration is misplaced in a general sense. The greens themselves aren't causing the problems, it's the slow players. As others have already said, slow will be slow, doesn't matter what the greens are doing.
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Longer blades of grass means they don't dry out as fast meaning they require less water. When your lawn isn't mowed as low it requires less water before it burns.
ntanygd760
Well-known member
Oh ok, you learn something new everyday.
StLCardsFan
Well-known member
It would be nice if every course had the same green speeds, but that would never happen. To many variables from place to place to accomplish that. I think it would be nice if there was a standard measure listed at each course. Just like the cart sign most courses have on #1 about if you can go off the path, have a sign to say what speed the greens are. I don't know if it would help speed play at all, but it would help people learn how to play at that speed. If your regular course was always a 10, and you played at a new place that was an 8, you would know to adjust and by how much. Over time, many golfers would be able to adjust based on the number. It wouldn't speed up play, but it would be nice to know. Right now, green speeds are measured as slow, kinda slow/kinda fast, fast, really fast, and really freaking fast. I would not be opposed to getting that standardized.
Green speeds aren't causing slow play. But they aren't speeding the game up at all. Amateurs love fast greens because it's easier to get the ball to the hole. But in reality, slow greens are just as fun.
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- #38
I think this is a good post, but is indeed showing that the course is not the culprit. For over a decade it was the rough too long, the trees, the overall difficulty. Courses made those changes and play did not get any faster at all. Reason? Because its not the course or the characteristics. Players are playing slow regardless of the challenge presented to them, and no matter what they change, the pace does not pick up.
Because reality is, its not about the game of golf, its about everything in between the game of golf that is slowing them down by drastic amounts.
Very solid post InTheRough and I agree on all counts. Unfortunately the nature of golf means that it just takes ONE slow player on a busy day to start jamming up a golf course. By the time a Marshall is made aware it's always too late and letting the first group play through doesn't help the course, it just helps that group.
ntanygd760
Well-known member
As long as the practice green is the same I always use a "stock" putt and see how far it goes, while I don't know the stimp number I do know that this course is either a little faster or a little slower. Obv not perfect but that is how I try to deal with the issue. Asking one of the grounds keepers doesn't hurt either, some know some don't some are like what is a stimp meter
GenErr
Well-known member
Slow play will be with us as long as we have slow players. We don't need to doctor up the course or the rules just because certain individuals play slow.
Big SoIL
Well-known member
On slower greens you can be a little more aggressive with your putts without the punishing misses on the really fast greens. I do agree that it's more pace of play than the courses fault, but slower greens would cut some strokes and turn several 3-putts into 2-putts. I'm always up for cutting down on 3-putts.
One of my least favorite shots is putting downhill on fast greens, nobody wants to putt downhill on really fast greens. You can tap it off the toe and sometimes it might not stay on, then you have to walk back to the cart and grab a wedge. That's not a shot amateurs should have to play on a regular basis.
One of my least favorite shots is putting downhill on fast greens, nobody wants to putt downhill on really fast greens. You can tap it off the toe and sometimes it might not stay on, then you have to walk back to the cart and grab a wedge. That's not a shot amateurs should have to play on a regular basis.
Slow play is slow play. You can sit here and debate it back & fourth until you are blue in the face but it won't change a thing until the USGA & R&A decide to change things. Really enforce the slow play on the Tour Players ... hit'em where it hurts ... their pocket book! It shouldn't take longer than 30 seconds to hit your ball ... not the 40 - 60 that the USGA defines it as before they are "put on the clock." Some players routinely go over this threshold but are Never penalized ... and god forbid if you are in the TOP 20 ... They never will.
Plus the USGA & R&A need to add more definition to "undue delay" for the amateur player. Say "upon reaching his/her ball, or upon taking relief or getting a rules clarification, the player has 45 seconds to strike the ball." That way the rules are clear and concise.
But it won't change ... so I say leave it as it is.
Plus the USGA & R&A need to add more definition to "undue delay" for the amateur player. Say "upon reaching his/her ball, or upon taking relief or getting a rules clarification, the player has 45 seconds to strike the ball." That way the rules are clear and concise.
But it won't change ... so I say leave it as it is.
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I'm OK with both fast greens and the size of the hole.
If I had a complaint around the greens it is with greenskeepers who place the pin in stupid locations. Near a high saddle point for example. Or right at the crest of a false front. Now I understand if it is a light play day that it wouldn't slow play significantly but if it is a busy day, the greens are fast and you put the pin at the crest of a false front, you know that you are going to have a bunch of golfers taking a lot of strokes there.
I had a green the other day where I just touched the ball on a 12' back to the pin. It missed the hole and kept going and rolled 5 feet into the thick rough. I had to pitch the ball back to the original spot and just breath on the ball to get it to stop close to the hole. If the greens are that fast, you have to give a player someplace below the hole to put the ball or it's going to be ugly.
If I had a complaint around the greens it is with greenskeepers who place the pin in stupid locations. Near a high saddle point for example. Or right at the crest of a false front. Now I understand if it is a light play day that it wouldn't slow play significantly but if it is a busy day, the greens are fast and you put the pin at the crest of a false front, you know that you are going to have a bunch of golfers taking a lot of strokes there.
I had a green the other day where I just touched the ball on a 12' back to the pin. It missed the hole and kept going and rolled 5 feet into the thick rough. I had to pitch the ball back to the original spot and just breath on the ball to get it to stop close to the hole. If the greens are that fast, you have to give a player someplace below the hole to put the ball or it's going to be ugly.
theoverswinger
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I think the speed of greens has some impact on pace of play, but not much.
If the guy is a slow player, and there's no one in the group to push him along, he'll be slow regardless of green speed.
That said, the green is one area where play can get real slow. High rollers + betting + putting = one really slow day.
I've seen someone view his 12 foot putt from north, south, east and west only to leave it 3 feet short.
I think it's all right to leave the stimp at 8 or 9 on ordinary days, then push it up to 11 on tournament day. I don't mind fast or slow greens, what's not easy are greens with several grasses mixed in that makes the speed inconsistent. I think that kind of green won't be easy for anyone.
There are also friendly-round pin locations, and championship pin locations. There are locations on the green that should not be and are not good pin locations. I don't care if the lowest net shot 5 under, nobody wants to five-putt. This is less about green speed but more of pin locations. If the hole is cut on a slope where even a two footer can be tricky, you'll have the rest of the field slowing down to be more careful of their putts. This is no longer the players' fault, this would be more of the management's fault.
If the guy is a slow player, and there's no one in the group to push him along, he'll be slow regardless of green speed.
That said, the green is one area where play can get real slow. High rollers + betting + putting = one really slow day.
I've seen someone view his 12 foot putt from north, south, east and west only to leave it 3 feet short.
I think it's all right to leave the stimp at 8 or 9 on ordinary days, then push it up to 11 on tournament day. I don't mind fast or slow greens, what's not easy are greens with several grasses mixed in that makes the speed inconsistent. I think that kind of green won't be easy for anyone.
There are also friendly-round pin locations, and championship pin locations. There are locations on the green that should not be and are not good pin locations. I don't care if the lowest net shot 5 under, nobody wants to five-putt. This is less about green speed but more of pin locations. If the hole is cut on a slope where even a two footer can be tricky, you'll have the rest of the field slowing down to be more careful of their putts. This is no longer the players' fault, this would be more of the management's fault.
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Jeanthemachine
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I'd be willing o try a larger hole but I am not sure it would speed up play. Also I like to think I am playing the same game the pros play even though I know it is very different.
You could make the hole the size of the green and it wouldn't speed up play all that much. People would spend 20 minutes agonizing over weather to use a PW or an AW.
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MBurnham
Active member
I said leave things the way they are. I didn't really like the other options. Maybe I just don't notice green speeds up here but I don't remember playing a course where the greens really held me up.
Bstubbs42
Member
Although I think these options may help a little I don't think they are the answer to slow play but I sure don't think doing nothing is a good option either. A larger hole and slower greens could lead to less putts but I am sure I can still miss the putt. Plus the USGA would never sanction the larger hole for public play when posting a score for Hncp, we all need to be held to the same standards as the PGA Tour according to the Blue Blazer elitists at the USGA. People need to learn to play tee boxes that suit their games and to play ready golf I see far to many people standing around waiting for other players to hit before they will even go to their ball. I played a course years ago with my son that had a great junior program, in order to participate in the program (which meant cheaper green fees) you had to sit through a video on golf rules that included tips for speeding up play. I wish more courses would do this and then get the marshals to enforce it I would like to play a round in 4 hours or less..
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The speed of the green may have a little to do with pace of play, but I think it's more of the mindset that amateurs feel they need to read every putt like the pros.