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There seems to be an assumption that more forgiving clubs lack precision. Do you find it to be true? What do you think is the reason for it?
Forgiveness vs Precision
I think the misnomer of forgiveness and precision when it comes to golf clubs is more of a lack of workability. Forgiving clubs are designed to go straight so working a ball left to right could be harder as the club is not designed for that.
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I think forgiving clubs have more precision. They are very repeatable and accurate. I think what they lack is versatility. You can always hit more shots with a smaller more basic head shape. Forgiveness has it's place in the bag, it just doesn't have to be every club.
Forgiving clubs are perceived to be less precise because the most forgiving clubs are played by higher handicappers who are less accurate. So, therefore more forgiving = less precise. But, in reality, no. A low handicapper should be just as accurate with more forgiving clubs.
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I have the perspective that regardless of how finite the line is, we should all strive to find the set that perfectly blends our need to maintain control while guarding against our inevitable error.
In shot, give me as much bulk as I can wrap my brain around and let me succeed.
In shot, give me as much bulk as I can wrap my brain around and let me succeed.
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We will be discussing wedges soon
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I wood maybe replace the word precision with constant. I feel like an SGI style of club is less consistent and can have big differences in distances. I guess that would also mean precision but consistency is the word I prefer with them.
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Wouldn’t run out be more a product of angle? And with a flyer on a spinnier club, getting debris between ball and club face would do similar, right? I think a decade ago we saw major hot spots but a lot has changed.
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Let me ask you a couple of follow ups. Wouldn’t the less forgiving club have more variance since impact is not exact every shot?
And another follow up. If you took a thick cavity back wedge and a muscle back wedge and hit them both multiple times on clean lies you think the larger one would have larger variance in distances?
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I often think about aspects of this question. I don't know. I hit some clubs, and balls land within a few yards of each other over and over. I hit other clubs, same setup, and I spray the balls around. Some players clubs feel forgiving to me. Some GI clubs feel precise to me. I feel like with golf there are simple narratives and then there is the reality of the golfer and too many little variables to quantify.
For a tour player caliber I think there is some truth to it as dialed in as they are and the way they work the ball in every direction possible. For everyone else I think there is more precise shots on forgiving clubs than that of say a blade. I know I can’t toe a 7 iron blade and still hit the green the same way I do with a forgiving iron
bombs
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I have found that hollow body irons with thin fast faces lack precision in the form of distance dispersion. I would often hit two identical shots, one landing pin high and the other missing long.
I have far greater consistency of outcome with players irons. As long as it's not an awful swing I know exactly how far the shot will carry.
I guess if my ball striking was not good then forgiveness would improve the result of my worst swings. But I'd rather have 8/10 predictable shots and land a few short due to mishits, rather than play the lottery every time I hit a hollow bodied iron.
I have far greater consistency of outcome with players irons. As long as it's not an awful swing I know exactly how far the shot will carry.
I guess if my ball striking was not good then forgiveness would improve the result of my worst swings. But I'd rather have 8/10 predictable shots and land a few short due to mishits, rather than play the lottery every time I hit a hollow bodied iron.
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Those are good questions.
Wouldn’t the less forgiving club have more variance since impact is not exact every shot?
- my personal opinion is it's the opposite. I'll preface this by saying I don't have a ton of experience with a super forgiving iron but when I've tried them it seems like I've had a larger front to back as well as side to side variance. It feels like if I absolutely smoke a shot with a GI iron it's going further than what I would normally hit, something that I don't believe I experience with something like a blade. If I hit it poorly yes it's going to give me more distance, but I honestly don't think it's a real big gain over something like a players iron. It seems like maybe a 5 yard difference.
Sole width and design plays a part in that also I think. If you have a huge sole from an SGI club that bounces off the hard ground it's going to impact how well you strike that ball consistently which could really mess with the variance.
Now side to side if I hit the ball further with a forgiving iron that means any little bit I'm offline is going to be magnified. Now my left to right dispersion would be larger wouldn't it? I guess that speaks more toward a lack of precision than consistency.
I'm one that believes that yes there is forgiveness to be gained in certain styles of clubs, but not a huge amount. That's for my game though. Someone who struggles to make consistent contact could see better results I guess. Having been playing blades lately I feel like a mishit shot gives me pretty small distance loss but also better side to side dispersion on those mishits.
And another follow up. If you took a thick cavity back wedge and a muscle back wedge and hit them both multiple times on clean lies you think the larger one would have larger variance in distances?
- I think here you're going to see a little difference but still nothing huge. I don't think you'll see those big, unexpected distance gains on a smoked shot from a larger wedge which will help with the variance. Again I think sole design is going to be a factor in that if the thick cavity back has a large sole that bounces off of a baked out fairway that could cause trouble. Although I would guess any company probably has that figured out in the wedge area.
I say that comment after absolutely loving the RTX3 CB wedges too. I actually preferred that wedge in my 48* and 52* spot because it did give me a little extra confidence having that added face real estate to play around with.
Like everything though I think it comes down to what makes a person confident. The mental aspect is the biggest toss up in the game and if someone feels more confident hitting a GI club than that is likely what is going to work for them because they have mentally grasped on to that thought. The same holds true for someone like me that likes a smaller and likely less forgiving iron.
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I had always thought the SGI irons were setup to be a bit shorter, but straighter on mishits. Hence the need to jack the lofts. While the muscle clubs were made with the idea when you hit the sweet spot the clubs go a long way and are more workable left or right. However, if you hit the muscle clubs off line you would lose more distance then a forgiving club.
wristcock
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If you achieve great forgiveness you will almost certainly end up with improved precision
In my way too simplified version— no I play forgiving clubs to be precise. If I played not so forgiving clubs, I know I wouldn’t be as precise.
I have been playing GI clubs for the last two years, the user gives the club the precision. The club gives forgiveness. You can have both without issue.
Without a doubt runout could be a product of angle. If two shots descend at the same angle, and the same speed, but one has less spin than the other will they stop at the same distance? Of course conversely, if both have the same spin but different approach angles what will the results be? Perhaps this may be where control and playability factor in, respective to the individual player.
Concerning flyers, your comment on hot spots was where I was kind of heading. But that doesn’t seem to be much of an issue now.
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If I had hair to tear out, I would over this very issue. I made a switch to a players cavity back towards the end of July. My index is now the lowest it has ever been and the irons are one of the reasons for it. I believe that they are leaving me closer to the hole but I do not know why, It may be turf interaction, I honestly don’t know. I cannot deduce a reason.
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I think that the benefits can get overridden at some point by the most skilled users, because there's a sacrifice in versatility. Leveling the worst comes at the expense of potential 'best', as it were. As a bad analogy, autonomous braking and steering can help a bad driver be better and safer, but at some point they're going to get in the way of a skilled one wishing to control things themselves, and actually cause problems.
I would echo @Canadan 's "regardless of how finite the line is, we should all strive to find the set that perfectly blends* our need to maintain control while guarding against our inevitable error. " sentiments.
There are some things made much harder by the forgiveness added into certain club designs, and we have to decide what best benefits our individual games. Just because I can score well with forgiving, doesn't mean they are best for me, or that I can't do better with others less forgiving. @Tenputt might have something to say about this idea.
*solution?
edit: Dang!! second time tonight someone's beat me to my own thought. Hi @Tenputt
I would echo @Canadan 's "regardless of how finite the line is, we should all strive to find the set that perfectly blends* our need to maintain control while guarding against our inevitable error. " sentiments.
There are some things made much harder by the forgiveness added into certain club designs, and we have to decide what best benefits our individual games. Just because I can score well with forgiving, doesn't mean they are best for me, or that I can't do better with others less forgiving. @Tenputt might have something to say about this idea.
*solution?
edit: Dang!! second time tonight someone's beat me to my own thought. Hi @Tenputt
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Faiz
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More forgiveness equals more precision.
A larger sweet spot means more consistent distance.
A more forgiving club head is going to help with accuracy in terms of ironing out minor swing variance to give a straighter flight.
I myself would love more forgiveness in terms of less workability but I'm struggling to find many irons that are of a more traditional loft. For someone who doesn't want additional distance there doesn't seem to be much out there that has traditional loft gapping.
Maybe the combo is the way to get the additional forgiveness in the longer irons.
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A larger sweet spot means more consistent distance.
A more forgiving club head is going to help with accuracy in terms of ironing out minor swing variance to give a straighter flight.
I myself would love more forgiveness in terms of less workability but I'm struggling to find many irons that are of a more traditional loft. For someone who doesn't want additional distance there doesn't seem to be much out there that has traditional loft gapping.
Maybe the combo is the way to get the additional forgiveness in the longer irons.
Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk