"Handsy" Swings

[sintaks12]

I sure am getting confused when I hear people talking about handsy swings and releasing the club. Last night I watched the golf fix and Breed talked about lag and how the release is a "snap through the ball." He went so far as to give a drill... a 9 to 3 lag drill where you snap the club at release. I'm starting (key word starting) to develop this in my swing and when I have good tempo and rhythm that day, it feels great. When I watch better players swing, they all have that snap in their swing. Watch Breed swing... big lag and a late snap at release. Yet I continue to hear people, including our local pro, talk about using "your big muscles" and that you don't use your hands... the body releases the club. I don't buy it. I know that the lower body starts the downswing and rotates around the spine... yadda yadda yadda. But you don't stop the swing at impact and let the your body do the rest. That sounds pretty difficult to do actually. The right hand rolls over the left.

My question is, do instructors use the "big muscles" logic to try and keep the swing simple for beginners? If I can be consistent with lagging the club and snapping it through contact, what's wrong with that? Am I OK trying to develop this or am I starting bad habits?

EDIT: Posted in two forums. Mods, feel free to merge.

 

[blugold]

My understanding of the "big muscle" take, is to avoid standing with your legs and arms still and just using your arms to swing the club. Also try to avoid releasing the club too early. I have heard that called "casting". I am hardly an expert, but I would take some lessons and learn what a good swing feels like.

I like "The Golf Fix", but I think it can get confusing/contradictory for amateur players.

 

[Tmex]

I get really confused when I start getting a lot of tips. But that's just my learning style, and I start to tinker with other things and when I fix one, I have to go to another. Which is why lessons are awesome haha. Great point.

My understanding of the "big muscle" take, is to avoid standing with your legs and arms still and just using your arms to swing the club. Also try to avoid releasing the club too early. I have heard that called "casting". I am hardly an expert, but I would take some lessons and learn what a good swing feels like.

I like "The Golf Fix", but I think it can get confusing/contradictory for amateur players.

 

[rrpruett]

I also watched last nights Golf Fix. He gives out a lot of information and I can only take a couple things from what he says to think about and or work on. I think he gives out a lot of info so we can Grasp a couple of things. I know on more then a few occasions he has helped me fix a problems with just some little example.

 

[All4's]

Actually both are right, just from different schools of thought. Lots of ways to successfully swing a club have been discovered. Which I think can be good for new golfers if they can find a PGA Pro who can teach multiple types of swings and then work with you on the one that fits you best. Unfortunately, a lot of instructors become very committed to one school of thought or another and then try to make everyone fit into that cookie cutter swing.

Here is an oldie but goody on the motion at the bottom of the swing you are talking about: http://youtu.be/JwINLfEmAjc If you want something more technical just let me know and I can provide more on how the different release patterns.

Also, yes the right hand rolls over the left, but 2 things to keep in mind: 1) it does so naturally with no effort from you, 2) make darn sure that isn't happening until a good bit after impact; preferably a a foot or more after. Otherwise, instead of a release, you have the dreaded flip and/or throwaway. That would be the bad habit to start. To make sure you are not doing that, video your swing if possible (face on) and make sure you have a flat left wrist at impact in relation to the shaft/clubhead (stronger/weaker grip will affect exactly how this looks but only to a small degree usually) and that your right arm does not fully straighten until after contact, again preferably a foot or so after contact. Many teachers refer to that concept as the "flying wedge", with the wedge being the bent right wrist supporting the flat left wrist through impact.

Lynn Blake's Youtube channel also has some great videos on this that should help clarify it better than I have. BTW-he is our guy Brian Gay's teacher and a bunch of others.

 

[berty1027]

I actually get caught up on this handsy swing issue as well. I always felt that on my worst swings, my wrists would almost flip/snap through contact, and for me I considered that as having been handsy during that swing. I was actually getting fit for clubs yesterday, and my fitter told me that it all stems from a quick move to the inside on my backswing. I have pretty broad shoulders, and he said that when I make such a quick move to the inside on the backswing, the position I am creating at the top is causing difficulty in squareing up the club face at impact; basically saying my larger upper body was getting in the way on the downswing because of how inside and compact I was at the top. The only way, from this position, that I was able to hit decent shots was due to pretty decent hand-eye coordination (being able to time the flip/snap accurately). This led to me feeling very handsy at impact. I started to understand what he was saying a bit this morning when I played. As I started my backswing more straight back (more by rotation of the upper body, and not just extending my arms) I was able to feel as if I was loading correctly at the top, and had room to drive through the ball with my whole body (in essence using my bigger muscles). But sure enough, when I reverted back to the inside move, the result was flipping the wrists and hitting a weak soft fade most of the time.

Not sure if this helps at all, but I think trying to time the 'snapping through impact' swing could lead to very inconsistent contact. It just adds another component in the swing, rather than letting your hands/arms rotate properly through the ball - which I am starting to feel is best done by letting the big muscles do the work throughout the swing.

Just my two cents....

 

[sintaks12]

I actually get caught up on this handsy swing issue as well. I always felt that on my worst swings, my wrists would almost flip/snap through contact, and for me I considered that as having been handsy during that swing. I was actually getting fit for clubs yesterday, and my fitter told me that it all stems from a quick move to the inside on my backswing. I have pretty broad shoulders, and he said that when I make such a quick move to the inside on the backswing, the position I am creating at the top is causing difficulty in squareing up the club face at impact; basically saying my larger upper body was getting in the way on the downswing because of how inside and compact I was at the top. The only way, from this position, that I was able to hit decent shots was due to pretty decent hand-eye coordination (being able to time the flip/snap accurately). This led to me feeling very handsy at impact. I started to understand what he was saying a bit this morning when I played. As I started my backswing more straight back (more by rotation of the upper body, and not just extending my arms) I was able to feel as if I was loading correctly at the top, and had room to drive through the ball with my whole body (in essence using my bigger muscles). But sure enough, when I reverted back to the inside move, the result was flipping the wrists and hitting a weak soft fade most of the time.

Not sure if this helps at all, but I think trying to time the 'snapping through impact' swing could lead to very inconsistent contact. It just adds another component in the swing, rather than letting your hands/arms rotate properly through the ball - which I am starting to feel is best done by letting the big muscles do the work throughout the swing.

Just my two cents....

I grew up playing tennis and I correlate my left hand in the golf swing to that of my backhand stroke in tennis. The racket starts open at the top of the backswing, the arm and shoulders start to swing forward, the wrist gradually begins to roll over but is square at impact, then the follow-through. This is not unlike the golf swing. While I agree the right hand rolls over the left after impact, the club has to start to release prior to impact. I'm not talking about casting the club very early... but if you hold lag in your downswing the club has to release a little bit before impact just so your club has a chance to get back to square. Right?

 

[berty1027]

I would agree with that. But being that its not so dependant on a perfectly timed flip through the impact zone, it's almost as if the release is happening for a longer period of time, starting before impact for sure. Not just as a last second 'catching up' so that I can attempt to square the face at impact, since I am having an issue clearing the arms past my upper body. My arms are getting stuck behind, and I am then producing a weak, late wristy/handsy type action as an attempt to square the face. I am not sure if I am explaining it well, but its almost as if the action of releasing the club through the impact zone is happening for a longer period of time, but still not resulting in my right arm rotating over my left arm (I am a righty) until after impact (as All4's alluded too). The feeling of getting my right forearm over my left forearm (taking more bigger muscles to do so) moreso then my right hand on top of my left hand (taking wrists and hands to do so).

I hope that makes sense, but I doubt it, haha. Not terribly good at explaining it. Again it's just a feeling that I am trying to develop, and I think it's going to be better for me in the long run rather than trying to time a perfect snap through the impact zone.

 

[All4's]

I forgot to add that a drill that was used on me to get me to feel the sensation of the release and not a flip is chipping/pitching holding the club with just your left hand. It forces a straight arm and wrist at impact and almost hurts if you flip it because your right hand isn't there to act as a brake. I was amazed at how far down the line the head would extend as it gradually continues releasing after squaring up at impact.

Now I make anyone who flips it do that drill to feel the sensation of a extension and release.

 

[jmingt]

I'd say the trick is doing the flip without really trying to flip it.

Really....think of it as throwing a baseball. It's impossible to do without wrist action. However, when you're explaining it to someone, you don't say you flick your wrist as hard as you can in the direction you want to throw.

 

[jdjanda]

I tried to keep the hands out of the swing and always left the face open, with lessons I am learning to close the face. I can hit the driver most times without the big S, and can put some draw on my irons. Something I could never do prior to lessons because I always held the face open.

I'll take a couple of practice swings before hitting driver practicing letting the hands roll over early.

 

[sintaks12]

I'd say the trick is doing the flip without really trying to flip it.

Really....think of it as throwing a baseball. It's impossible to do without wrist action. However, when you're explaining it to someone, you don't say you flick your wrist as hard as you can in the direction you want to throw.

This makes sense. That kinda fueled my question to begin with. In the same sense that you don't tell someone to flick your wrist when throwing a baseball, instructors don't tell their students to roll their wrists over during release... but it sure seems like all good golf swings have that component to them. So it's happening... it's just not a conscious flip of the wrists.

 

[bogey_russ]

IMO
flipping
handsy
casting
is all a biproduct of trying to correct a decelerating arm swing
at impact position in order to compensate for the deceleration in an attempt to gain clubhead speed... the hands work harder by "flipping"
and for some reason these swings look so much "faster" to the untrained eye because it seems there is greater effort

a "big muscle" swing keeps everything accelerating thru the ball and looks more like effortless power like ernie els

 

[sintaks12]

Do any of you subscribe to the slicefixer or dfw1500/Gotham Golf Fix/Michael Martin logic of "releasing" the club? From the reading I did yesterday and today, it seems exactly like swinging through with the body and holding lag/leverage/bent right wrist for as long as humanly possible. The methods they describe make alot of sense. I actually pitch/hit shorter shots this way. Didn't realize it applied to full swings as well. It really looks like they are rolling the hands over, but it's way after impact. If this method improves consistency and ball striking, I will be giving it a try.

 

[bogey_russ]

i think over thinking the hands during the swing will lead to more problems
im in the correct little things until you get what want frame of mind... solid fundamentals mean everything

 

[Ryan Loves Golf]

Do any of you subscribe to the slicefixer or dfw1500/Gotham Golf Fix/Michael Martin logic of "releasing" the club? From the reading I did yesterday and today, it seems exactly like swinging through with the body and holding lag/leverage/bent right wrist for as long as humanly possible. The methods they describe make alot of sense. I actually pitch/hit shorter shots this way. Didn't realize it applied to full swings as well. It really looks like they are rolling the hands over, but it's way after impact. If this method improves consistency and ball striking, I will be giving it a try.

I actually try(!) to swing that way. Key for me is to have a light grip and flimsy wrists meaning I am not trying to hold on to the lag/angle I created in the back swing but just letting gravity and rotational force work on its own. The club will always release whether you consciously release it or whether you let physics release it, otherwise it will hurt. Letting physics release the wrists is more natural for me, and I just have to think grip lightly and rip it. Another thing of note is, this works with rotational swings(you really have to TURN) but not very well with an arms only swing in my experience.

 

[pjcedog]

I only notice what my hands are doing on short game shots, and only on flops, lobs or sand shots. Chips, putts, driver, 3 wood, 5 iron, all are hit with no noticeable hand action. I think many people are fooled by hand action int he swing, similar to weight shift the only hand action that takes place is as a REACTION to other things going on in your swing. When average players try to hit the ball like Freddie Couples with a loop at the top and a big wrist cock it is usually a disaster, lots of fats and slices result from that. When I play my best I keep firm wrists and make a full turn and the only wrist movement I am aware of is just allowing the club to come back to square as I get to the hitting area, if I apply hand pressure or try to add any kind of hand action it is going to throw the face off and the shot will not go where I want it to go. The only time I will alter this is when I am trying to make sure that I hit a slice or a hook around an obstacle and I will either hold the face open or close it down to hit those shots. My hands ideally are just guiding the club back to the same position where I started at at address.