Wormkiller
Active member
From what I've seen on social media, there seems to be a perception that high handicappers are more likely to win club competitions. Do you agree?
Are high handicappers more likely to win competitions?
In the group / club I play in , we have significant proportion of mid20 - 36 hcp , we also several who are 10 -14 range . The wins accumulated by the higher hcp is disproportionate to that of lower . Imagine lower hcp player would have to play extraordinarily well to have chance comparative to higher who may have reasonable day but not same performance.
l think it connected moreso to hcp system which is finer movement rather than coarser movement which would balance opportunity to win more broadly
l think it connected moreso to hcp system which is finer movement rather than coarser movement which would balance opportunity to win more broadly
Wormkiller
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Golf Australia have taken all the stats from every single golfer in the country with a handicap and looked at win rates in competition according to handicap. Bearing in mind, in Australia only rounds played in competition count towards handicap and at clubs most rounds played would be in competition. So this is tens of thousands of golfers over tens of thousands of rounds. Pretty clearly obvious that there's no real significant discrepancy when it comes to the likelihood of winning a competition and handicap.
So if you're a low handicap you're just as likely to win a comp as any other individual regardless of their handicap. The only discrepancy is that fields would have more golfers at a higher handicap level as this is the mean handicap here (18.2 is the mean average handicap).
So if you're a low handicap you're just as likely to win a comp as any other individual regardless of their handicap. The only discrepancy is that fields would have more golfers at a higher handicap level as this is the mean handicap here (18.2 is the mean average handicap).
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But if you have a demographic that by it’s very nature is of higher handicap , then that will have a higher percentage .
We did match play in our league, highest vs lowest handicap, 2nd highest vs 2nd lowest, all the way to the middle where they played even.
Not a great day for the lower handicap half of bracket, being almost completely eliminated after week 1.
Not a great day for the lower handicap half of bracket, being almost completely eliminated after week 1.
I get my butt kicked on a 9 hole match play league when I am playing people giving them 2 strokes per hole. ( the most the league allows) darn near have to make a birdie every hole to not get smoked. Guys might make big numbers on a few holes, but they certainly arent making big numbers on every hole. Meanwhile if I make par I'm lucky to half.
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David7
Well-known member
My handicap is 47 right now, and I would never play against someone expecting that many pops. I shot a 116 on Monday and my net was 69. How could I say I beat someone like that?
I still think people should just play each other straight up like the pros do if they want to be competitive.
I still think people should just play each other straight up like the pros do if they want to be competitive.
In match play if you are using full handicaps then yeah, High Handicappers are likely to have a big advantage, because as you stated a lot of high handicappers have a few blow up holes but can play respectfully the rest of the way.
In stroke play I don't think there is any advantage for high handicap players as the blow up hole isn't negated as much as it is in match play.
Wormkiller
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Wormkiller
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Match play comps are very rare in Australia. It’s mostly stableford with the occasional stroke and par event. Hell, I’ve never even played a single matchplay round in my entire life. Would like to though.
I see a number of good responses that will refute what I am about to say, which admittedly is purely anecdotal and based on my own game.
I am a high handicapper, because of how volatile my game is. I am not only capable of, but often will rattle off three or four straight pars during a round, but then 2 straight triple-bogeys. The strokes I get in competition for my handicap. Don’t help me when I triple a hole, but make a lot of those pats into birdies.
Therefore, for golfers like myself — very capable, just prone to blowups — I feel that my high handicap does offer me an advantage over a lower handicap player who inherently is much more consistent
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We flight our competitions to avoid any dominance by one group or the other. Last tournament we had about 100 players in 4 (oops, not 5) flights of 25. The top 5 by playing handicap
Flight 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
A 6 1 6 4 2
B 10 9 7 10 8
C 14 12 8* 17 12
D 17 22 17 18 19
* we allow players to pick their tee so sometimes a guy who would be a 12 from the Middle tee opts for the Front and his playing handicap is adjusted downward
Flighting eliminates a lot of the issues with one level of handicap dominating.
Flight 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
A 6 1 6 4 2
B 10 9 7 10 8
C 14 12 8* 17 12
D 17 22 17 18 19
* we allow players to pick their tee so sometimes a guy who would be a 12 from the Middle tee opts for the Front and his playing handicap is adjusted downward
Flighting eliminates a lot of the issues with one level of handicap dominating.
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In a match play scenario, unless you are a very "consistent" high handicapper with lots of pars and triples (ex. average 12 pars and 6 triples a round for an "18"), a much lower handicapper will beat you 55-60% of the time in a match. The handicap formula has a bias toward lower handicaps based on the 8 of 20 scores and the maximum score of net double bogey.
In a net stroke play event that is not flighted, many times the winner will be a high handicap. If you have 80 guys with handicaps spread between 1 and 30, one of the 20 guys with a handicap of 22-30 is likely to have a very good day. 20 high handicappers are typically not going to all shoot their highest score. Several will have a good round. Meanwhile, in the cohort of 1-8 handicappers, some will also have a good day. The difference is a good day for the high handicapper will be a lot lower than the good day for the low handicapper.
Boone
Well-known member
I’m sure any high handicapper on the Planet will gladly trade their golf game with any of you low handicappers so you can win more club competitions 
I belonged to a course for several years where the seniors had a weekly tournament. I was the low handicap in the group (the only single digit IIRC), with handicaps ranging all the way up to 36. Some seniors only played in the tournaments. I never won an event, and struggled to finish in the top 3. In many events, I would have had to shoot in the low 60s to win. The group wasn't large enough to have more than a single flight.
@Wormkiller 's chart brings up an interesting perspective. It certainly FEELS like higher indexes win more handicapped events....but it's important to remember there are more higher handicapped players and we tend to lump them all together.
A's rarely win handicapped events at my club, but we have maybe 40 A players out of 500 members. Any time someone who is not an A wins, we might call them a "higher handicap". But really we're talking about 90% of the players at the club.
I'm not a huge fan of handicapped competitions, i always end up losing the stroke holes with pars and that sucks
A's rarely win handicapped events at my club, but we have maybe 40 A players out of 500 members. Any time someone who is not an A wins, we might call them a "higher handicap". But really we're talking about 90% of the players at the club.
I'm not a huge fan of handicapped competitions, i always end up losing the stroke holes with pars and that sucks
Some interesting articles on just this"
www.golfshake.com
All centered on the World Handicap System
The World Handicap System The Debate Rages On
And so the debate goes on. We recently reported on the feedback from our latest annual survey regarding the World Handicap System, a subject that continues to divide opinion. And it came as no surprise that the article exercised many of your minds yet again.
All centered on the World Handicap System
The problem with playing straight up is that a higher handicap would have virtually no chance of ever being competitive in a tournament unless it was flighted. It works for the pros because they're all plus handicaps and the differences between their games are very small - the difference between a scratch handicap and a 20 handicap is huge.
Any real competition is gross and not net. There is no such thing as the Net Club Champion.
And let's not forget those carpetbaggers that manipulate their handicaps. They give us high handicappers a bad name!
In our Men’s group we play a modified Stableford points game based on an established quota from playing in previous events. Your initial quota is based on your handicap if you have one. 1 point for Bogey, 2 for Par, 4 for Birdie and 7 points for an Eagle.
We have players ranging from low single digits to 30 handicap. The Men’s group plays on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday with about 20 players on average each play day. There are close to 70 members of the MGA
We have players teeing off from 4 different tee markers too. They play from wherever they established their quota and can only change which tees they play from twice a year on Jan 1 & July 1st. When they move up or back a set of tees their points are adjusted.
We also have prizes for closest to the pins, low gross and an optional birdie pool.
It is very hard for a low handicap player to be plus a bunch on their points unless they have a tremendous day with multiple birdies or an eagle or two.
The low handicap guys tend to win more often the low gross award, participate in the birdie pool and win an occasional close up.
If you are plus on your points during an official play day your points go up by 1/2. If you are minus on your points they go down a maximum of 1 point.
The higher handicap guys have more variation in their game and a good day can lead to lots of points versus their quota.
The system seems to be working. There is something for everyone.
Despite that, the low cappers b*tch about the points game being unfair to them and the high handicappers b*tch about the low gross award and are also more likely to abstain from the optional birdie pool.
We keep statistics both monthly and Year to date and the one thing that stands out is that regardless of handicap the guys that play the most tend to be at the top of the money list every year.
We have players ranging from low single digits to 30 handicap. The Men’s group plays on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday with about 20 players on average each play day. There are close to 70 members of the MGA
We have players teeing off from 4 different tee markers too. They play from wherever they established their quota and can only change which tees they play from twice a year on Jan 1 & July 1st. When they move up or back a set of tees their points are adjusted.
We also have prizes for closest to the pins, low gross and an optional birdie pool.
It is very hard for a low handicap player to be plus a bunch on their points unless they have a tremendous day with multiple birdies or an eagle or two.
The low handicap guys tend to win more often the low gross award, participate in the birdie pool and win an occasional close up.
If you are plus on your points during an official play day your points go up by 1/2. If you are minus on your points they go down a maximum of 1 point.
The higher handicap guys have more variation in their game and a good day can lead to lots of points versus their quota.
The system seems to be working. There is something for everyone.
Despite that, the low cappers b*tch about the points game being unfair to them and the high handicappers b*tch about the low gross award and are also more likely to abstain from the optional birdie pool.
We keep statistics both monthly and Year to date and the one thing that stands out is that regardless of handicap the guys that play the most tend to be at the top of the money list every year.
David7
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I get that but honestly, someone like me has no business playing in a tournament. It’s just hard for me to wrap my mind around the concept of one person beating another even though the one who lost actually played better.
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It’s not a perception, it’s math. A high HC player can easily have a range of scores that is 20, 30, even 40 strokes apart. They can have a day when they shoot 10-15 strokes below their HC. That is NEVER going to happen with a low HC player. If I am a scratch or better golfer am I going to shoot a 55 on a regulation size course? No way!
This is precisely why in larger HC [E.g; net score] tournaments they create flights of golfers within a specific handicap range.
David7
Well-known member
If anyone accuses me of that I’ll confidently tell them “my bad game is all real baby!”