Does Drive for Show and Putt for Dough really hold true today?

[choppstixxx]

As long as your playing the appropriate tees for the length you hit shots, chipping/putting > driving it long. I usually score better 75% of the time then buddies that hit it 30+ yds farther than me just because of my chipping/putting.

 

[wubears71]

This article came up in my feed today. It's very good timing since it shows Driving Statistics vs Handicap for us mere amateurs. Just like the PGA tour data, this data shows that Longer average distance off the tee correlates to handicap.

https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/feat...nBiVvLaKUzY6sMD45etbvaO2JBzUmSM5VbU6PCWNATjbo


The data doesn't lie. You may "feel" or "think" that driving for show and putting for dough holds true, but it just doesn't in today's game. While they are not mutually exclusive and you need a half way decent tee to green game and short game to score well, the data supports that the tee shot is more important than what you do around the green.

 

[rollin]

As long as your playing the appropriate tees for the length you hit shots, chipping/putting > driving it long. I usually score better 75% of the time then buddies that hit it 30+ yds farther than me just because of my chipping/putting.

yes but now convert your shorter driving into errant or penal driving on even just 5 or 6 holes per round and I grantee that your 75% better scoring vs your buddies drops way way down. Driving is not just about distance but also about executing even just decent shots that are not costly.

 

[wubears71]

Here is even more empirical evidence that driving is more critical - actual academic study with 70,000 data points.

https://www.golf.com/instruction/no-1-instruction-myth-you-putt-dough


Please someone find evidence that putting is more important because I cannot. I’m not talking subjective data but actual, analyzed data. I would love to see it.

 

[rollin]

This article came up in my feed today. It's very good timing since it shows Driving Statistics vs Handicap for us mere amateurs. Just like the PGA tour data, this data shows that Longer average distance off the tee correlates to handicap.

https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/feat...nBiVvLaKUzY6sMD45etbvaO2JBzUmSM5VbU6PCWNATjbo


The data doesn't lie. You may "feel" or "think" that driving for show and putting for dough holds true, but it just doesn't in today's game. While they are not mutually exclusive and you need a half way decent tee to green game and short game to score well, the data supports that the tee shot is more important than what you do around the green.

while I agree that putting is not more important I dont hink we can put a yardage on HC. reason being is that there are many high cappers who can hit the ball a country mile but cant do so efficiently and cant kep it in play enough. Same with me at a 15/16 cap I can hit the driver 240 to 260 when hitting it well (at least i was before my issues set in this year). But those issues are causing me to be too errant. Imo its not really the distance as much as it could be the ability to keep the ball in play and not be penal. Then after that the distance means a lot too of course.

Plenty folks that payed with me will comment that they thought i was a lower cap than what i am if they happen to catch me on the good driver day. But then i tell them, "but for everyone I have I have 3 or 4 where Im much too errant". I likely could be a 12 that i once was vs my 16 (and recent worse 17+) were not for my errant tee game. It was actually the biggest difference now from when i did reach that 12.5. So its not only the distance but is also for many mid and high cappers also about not being errant and costly. Thats why distance stat can be deceiveing. But given two players who are not as errant and of similar ability tee till holed and certainly the longer one has an advantage for sure.

 

[MrDC]

As long as your playing the appropriate tees for the length you hit shots, chipping/putting > driving it long. I usually score better 75% of the time then buddies that hit it 30+ yds farther than me just because of my chipping/putting.

I doubt it, chances are you're far more accurate off the tee as well.

But even if it were true it's not a fair conclusion, the only way to know is to have all things equal besides driving and putting, and that's sort of impossible without looking at tons of data.

 

[choppstixxx]

Let me correct my original response by saying that this goes under the assumption that my longer driving playing partners are much worse chipping/putting than me. So what I was inferring was that I save shots with my short game.
All things equal, there is almost no way I would be able to beat a playing partner that drives it that much longer than me.

 

[rollin]

I doubt it, chances are you're far more accurate off the tee as well.

But even if it were true it's not a fair conclusion, the only way to know is to have all things equal besides driving and putting, and that's sort of impossible without looking at tons of data.

hence why imo we cannot look at what others do or how they win or lose. It simply can imo only be about ones own game and how it stacks up against no one but simply where and what is costing the individual the most strokes. It simply doesn't matter what anyone else does. Imo its never about what another does better but is about what I didnt do well. The idea is to be as efficient as we can from tee till holed.

 

[5150]

I’m just pulling it from the pga tour website and the official golf rankings. Nothing special.

Cool. Lots of good stuff there; been poking around.

Just for kicks I pulled Top 10 Driving Distance and compared it to Top 10 Finishes. I highlighted in green the names that appear in both lists.



What's that tell us?

Nothing yet, other than Top 10 Finishes is a different measure of the effectiveness of one's game that Strokes Gained. I would've expected more crossover between the lists. I wonder if Driving Accuracy will see more crossover than Driving Distance.

Also, I'm fried after a long day at the office, and my analyzing skills are probably sh!tty right now.

I'll mess with it some more. Fun stuff.

 

[ntanygd760]

while I agree that putting is not more important I dont hink we can put a yardage on HC. reason being is that there are many high cappers who can hit the ball a country mile but cant do so efficiently and cant kep it in play enough. Same with me at a 15/16 cap I can hit the driver 240 to 260 when hitting it well (at least i was before my issues set in this year). But those issues are causing me to be too errant. Imo its not really the distance as much as it could be the ability to keep the ball in play and not be penal. Then after that the distance means a lot too of course.

Plenty folks that payed with me will comment that they thought i was a lower cap than what i am if they happen to catch me on the good driver day. But then i tell them, "but for everyone I have I have 3 or 4 where Im much too errant". I likely could be a 12 that i once was vs my 16 (and recent worse 17+) were not for my errant tee game. It was actually the biggest difference now from when i did reach that 12.5. So its not only the distance but is also for many mid and high cappers also about not being errant and costly. Thats why distance stat can be deceiveing. But given two players who are not as errant and of similar ability tee till holed and certainly the longer one has an advantage for sure.

It is all about playable distance. If the guy who can hit 260 has a bunch clip trees and drops his average to 210 or whatever that is not playable. Now I think what a lot of people who see a guy hit 1 or 2 drives 260 who don't score well think that distance doesn't equal lower scores. If you get a guy who actually hits it well and never has a drive below 250 it will be way way easier to score.

 

[rollin]

It is all about playable distance. If the guy who can hit 260 has a bunch clip trees and drops his average to 210 or whatever that is not playable. Now I think what a lot of people who see a guy hit 1 or 2 drives 260 who don't score well think that distance doesn't equal lower scores. If you get a guy who actually hits it well and never has a drive below 250 it will be way way easier to score.

playable distance a good way to put it and seems to be what I meant.

 

[PapaJohick]

As long as your playing the appropriate tees for the length you hit shots, chipping/putting > driving it long. I usually score better 75% of the time then buddies that hit it 30+ yds farther than me just because of my chipping/putting.

Honest question. What do you say is an appropriate tee? Is it ensuring you have short irons into all Par 4? Able to reach all 5s?

I know what my game can handle and whether I’m playing 6000 yards or 6700 yards, I have to have driver working to even have a chance at breaking 80.

 

[ntanygd760]

Honest question. What do you say is an appropriate tee? Is it ensuring you have short irons into all Par 4? Able to reach all 5s?

I know what my game can handle and whether I’m playing 6000 yards or 6700 yards, I have to have driver working to even have a chance at breaking 80.

That is the question. I would think you would have to say what the round is. Casual round you have the choice of playing the right tees and maybe that means distance isn't as important. But in a competitive round with no option to move up then I would say distance is way more important. Personally if I am playing a shorter set I don't just start hitting hybrid off half the tees because the box "takes driver away", I swing away and have 40 yards into par 4s and try to go low.

As for the correct box 36 x 5 iron works well. +/- 300 from that number seems good

 

[PapaJohick]

I’m the same way. I’ll hit driver all day long. Probably averaging 10 times a round.

Ive seen that formula before and I can get behind it I guess. At the same time, I really don’t care about yardages too much (course wise). Now I won’t go play a 7k+ because that would be a very rough day for me and they typically have forced carries from the tee that I cant do. But overall, I’ll generally be ok with anything from 6-6800 yards

 

[choppstixxx]

Honest question. What do you say is an appropriate tee? Is it ensuring you have short irons into all Par 4? Able to reach all 5s?

I know what my game can handle and whether I’m playing 6000 yards or 6700 yards, I have to have driver working to even have a chance at breaking 80.

Pretty much going off of the following chart:
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"671","width":"651","src":"https:\/\/images.squarespace-cdn.com\/content\/v1\/5117275fe4b0cd4cc717656b\/1365832822577-07RPJU148VRBS5S7SZ3E\/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kB56IM8TiXhTvNGQSAMWHX1Zw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZUJFbgE-7XRK3dMEBRBhUpyZFGILv3NEiStajB5F1CrnNgerzpB_cHyh9dg2qBQB0IwjJ_2UCE4k5TNzRsgF7pA\/Tee+it+Forward+distances.png?format=1000w"}[/IMG2]

For example my drives average between 230-250, so I don't usually play a tee box that is longer than 6500yds.

 

[wubears71]

Sounds. About right. I average 284 off the tee and 7100 yards is about as long as I like to play.

 

[PapaJohick]

Makes sense.

I just think a general thing like that is not the best way.

I try to play a course length where I may be able to have a chance at at least one par 5, 1-2 par 4s that require more than 6 iron, and par 3s that range from 120-180.

I know, a dream world haha but out of the courses I have played, it ends up being right around 64-6600 yards. (I typically average 230-240 carry)

 

[kevin81002]

Chicks dig the long ball.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Makes sense.

I just think a general thing like that is not the best way.

I try to play a course length where I may be able to have a chance at at least one par 5, 1-2 par 4s that require more than 6 iron, and par 3s that range from 120-180.

I know, a dream world haha but out of the courses I have played, it ends up being right around 64-6600 yards. (I typically average 230-240 carry)

Not a dream world at all. I think that's a very reasonable desideratum.

Trying to think off the top of my head about my home course from the tees I usually play. It fails the "one [reachable] Par 5" but just barely. There are a couple where if I hit my very, very, very best driver I could hit a fairway wood up around the front edge of the green. So there are certainly a couple where my third shot can be a short chip or pitch for eagle.

But otherwise, check and check. Par 3's range from 125 to about 170 (normal tee locations and pin positions). Par 4's I usually have a hybrid or fairway wood on one of the long ones and a 5-iron or 6-iron on another one.

During the winter I move up one set of tees. The Par 3's are pretty short (couple of 110-yarders) but two of the Par 5's are reachable with two great shots even on a cool day when the ball isn't carrying.

So I'm with you. That's pretty much my list. When I play by myself I often move up a set of tees on one random Par 5 just to at least think I have a reachable one (never seem to hit a good driver on the one I'm playing up though).

 

[PapaJohick]

Not a dream world at all. I think that's a very reasonable desideratum.

Trying to think off the top of my head about my home course from the tees I usually play. It fails the "one [reachable] Par 5" but just barely. There are a couple where if I hit my very, very, very best driver I could hit a fairway wood up around the front edge of the green. So there are certainly a couple where my third shot can be a short chip or pitch for eagle.

But otherwise, check and check. Par 3's range from 125 to about 170 (normal tee locations and pin positions). Par 4's I usually have a hybrid or fairway wood on one of the long ones and a 5-iron or 6-iron on another one.

During the winter I move up one set of tees. The Par 3's are pretty short (couple of 110-yarders) but two of the Par 5's are reachable with two great shots even on a cool day when the ball isn't carrying.

So I'm with you. That's pretty much my list. When I play by myself I often move up a set of tees on one random Par 5 just to at least think I have a reachable one (never seem to hit a good driver on the one I'm playing up though).

Ya my home course from the white tees semi fills this. 3 of the par 5s are reachable with good drives. One can be anywhere from a 3 wood/hybrid/6iron depending on wind. One is mainly a 3 wood needed (unless your legit long on the tee) but you’ll need a really good 3 wood shot (fade) to be worth it, and the last one, you need a good drive and it’s either 3 wood or hybrid depending on how long you are.

Par 4 wise, there is typically only one par 4 that is routinely long for me. Can be anywhere from 3 wood to 5 iron based on wind or contact.

Par 3, we have one long par 3 (160-180) and that’s only if they put the white on that tee box. The others are between 110-150.

The tips are long long but I actually get more enjoyment due to different shots and more variety of iron usage.

 

[rollin]

So yesterday was a 93. The front was +14, the back was +7 for a +21 total and the 93. What was the difference between horrible front and a much more acceptable back? Having (on the front) to recover from wayward tee shots 5 times. One was penal and a re-tee, another was in such a poor place it took two strokes to get out and back into good play. Thats 4 strokes lost just on those 2 tee shots. then we had the other 3 of the 5 where I lost those 3 more strokes recovering back out and/or up into play. The back at the much better +7 I hit 5 fw's and its not so much hitting the fw or not but just that I had no penal tee shots that costed me strokes like it did on the front. I simply hit efficiently off the tee (mostly driver).

We simply cannot be sitting 3, 4 , 5 strokes due to a poor tee game and only then get to play for or be on the green to only then be putting for 5 or 6 or 7th stroke. You simply can not play this game well that way. The math just doesnt work. Thats just a fact. There is no such thing as whats being more important than another. That ideology is nonsense and its wrong. I dont care what any pga instructor says, what any highly respected golf personality dictates, what any tour pro says nor does in any event. You have to look at your own game, not what anyone else does or did nor who beat anyone nor how they best them. Are you costing yourself too many putting strokes? thats highly important and you need to try to make that better. Are you costing yourself too many shots from the tees? same answer. Iron/appraoch striking?, chip/pitching? all has the same exact answer. Its all of greatest importance equally. And nothing makes up for anything already lost and spent. Thats not possible. The only thing thats possible is trying not to spend any more strokes in addition to any of it from anywhere.

 

[MrDC]

It's silly to argue which is more important, every swing is important in golf, that's one of the reasons it's so tough.

You won't find many good players that struggle off the tee often, nor will you find many that three-putt a lot, it's just that simple.

But for me, knowing my game, and watching countless amateurs I've grouped with, I think driving is the swing that can make or break a round, I've never had a great score for me without driving well, and those same cards probably had some questionable putting.

I'd love to be a better putter though, it's easily 5 strokes I give up every round I'm sure, maybe more.