Does Drive for Show and Putt for Dough really hold true today?

[GraniteRoost]

I know a lot of others use the Grint App, and I have been reading the replies and tried to correlate those that posted favoring the putting versus those that favor off the tee or distance.

I have two questions: One, those using the Grint App do you find the data has helped improve your game in either area off the tee or putting? (I know not really part of this discussion, but I am curious as to what some think)
Two, and more in terms of the discussion here, I have noticed those that lean toward the putting side seem to be lower handicap individuals and those that lean on the off the tee and distance side have mid to higher handicaps. That leads me to think, as some have said, we all pick what is harder for our games when thinking about this discussion. Lower amateur handicap players are generally good off the tee and see themselves as needing to improve in the short game area like putting. While higher handicap players tend to be poor at driving and approach shots, therefore, they need to improve with distance and off the tee to lower their scores.

What do you think? Does handicap play more into your bias versus what you truly think is a more important section of golf?

On the first question, I am not an intense stats consumer, more intrigued to know my game and have been tracking this year some basics for the first time. The biggest point of awareness for me is that by tracking it I in general have more awareness of exactly which parts of my game were sharp or not that day and how my averages may compare to either others my handicap or at the handicap I might aspire to. I've not been practicing my weak areas off course, so most of the improvement comes from course management, mental strategy.

Second point, I have more than average clubhead speed, so for me distance is useless unless its in play. I'm prone to tee shots going far enough to get into trouble, so my whole game is based on using 3H off the tee most often and Driver least. Chasing FIR% and GIR%, leaving smart misses. I definitely see both sides, and have the luxury of distance making a lot of things possible (but not advisable) in my game. To score, you have to leave your ball in a spot to control your ball coming into the green. To that point I'll take 110 yards approach every single time over 50- 80 yards where I have more trouble with distance control and am more likely to be hitting from the rough due to hitting a longer club off the tee. That scenario plays out on many Par 4's.

The reason I posted the stats was simply to show that for me, I need to keep the ball under control coming into the green, peg the GIR%, and hole putts to score. I'll likely never hit the ball tons further, and even now don't need to. Driver is idle most holes, and by random chance at this point in time 20 rounds of golf show I can still score if I miss one more fairway. There is no recovering from a missed putt, your score is one higher. And I know from experience my score blows up when I start making doubles dropping balls out of hazards or the woods off the tee.

I think if the golfer is playing the correct set of tees for them, distance is not so much the problem, it's keeping it in play at the distance you choose. When you are pushing the limits of your ability level on course length and difficulty, or trying to compete at a scratch level, you need both firepower and finesse, there is no way around it.

 

[ntanygd760]

The grint stats don't mean much. Give me 7 fairways averaging 290 over 14 fairways averaging 250 all day long.

 

[5150]

The two are not exclusive. It drives me insane. But if I have to pick, I'd rather be a long hitter than a lights out putter. It doesn't matter how good a putter you are if you have absolutely no chance to be laying up on a par 5 in two shots. Also, give me a 50 deg wedge into a green even from the rough than a 5i sitting in the middle.

What good does getting there in 2 do if I 3-putt?

 

[fuffle master]

What good does getting there in 2 do if I 3-putt?

I don't disagree, but what good does being able to 2 putt or even 1 putt if I already am laying 5 on a par 4 due to an OB tee shot?

There is no question being able to hit both straight off the tee and being a good putter will lower your scores. I just lean on the side of it's much harder to hit straight off the tee with distance than it is to 2 putt on the green.

Even if I don't hit OB (poor or short hitters don't hit many OB) and just slice/fade/pull the shot into the rough. Depending on the course and thickness of the rough I am forced to up club. When up clubbing the difficulty factor increases dramatically. Now, I hit a shot, but again due to the poor tee shot, I am still not at the green. I now have to chip and depending on that might not be on the green until the fourth shot. I have to save bogie with a one-putt or that's another bad hole.

So many more variables in getting to the green than once you are on the green.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

What good does getting there in 2 do if I 3-putt?

Getting on in 2 and 3-putting for par is better than getting on in 3 and 3-putting for bogey. And it beat the heck out of getting on in 5 and 3-putting for triple!

 

[5150]

Getting on in 2 and 3-putting for par is better than getting on in 3 and 3-putting for bogey. And it beat the heck out of getting on in 5 and 3-putting for triple!

My point is that having a well rounded game is the key. Golf is a broad game. Doing one thing really well and not much else doesn’t usually lead to lower scores.

I think the cliche re: show/dough is more about how a long drive, while fun to watch, is wasted if one can’t putt well.

The converse is also true: draining a 30 footer for double bogey doesn’t mean much either.

 

[PapaJohick]

What good does getting there in 2 do if I 3-putt?

What it does is show that you have an opportunity to better your score by hitting it longer. If you’re not a good/long driver, your ability or opportunity to make better scores go down pretty dramatically.

 

[olperfesser]

Sorry, short game is where the money is. I get a lot of one putt pars, and an occasional one putt birdie. Not a lot of GIR.

 

[Brassie]

My point is that having a well rounded game is the key. Golf is a broad game. Doing one thing really well and not much else doesn’t usually lead to lower scores.

I think the cliche re: show/dough is more about how a long drive, while fun to watch, is wasted if one can’t putt well.

The converse is also true: draining a 30 footer for double bogey doesn’t mean much either.

This ^^^^

I loved it when I had length and accuracy off the tee, along with well struck irons with accuracy and feel and touch around the greens. Getting EVERYTHING working wasn't the norm though, I usually had something or somethings not working exactly right on the course and was scrambling to make up for it. My part of the game that was consistently less than desirable was my putting. Three putts were the bane of my golf existence. Not feel the distance right on the 1st putt, miss the comeback and then tap in the 3rd. Ugh!!! Especially when the 1st putt was for eagle. It use to drive me crazy.

 

[wubears71]

Here is some statistical evidence I pulled from the PGA tour and analyzed in excel that shows "Driving for show" is more important that "Putting for dough"



World Golf Ranking compared to strokes gained off the tee on PGA Tour (Average World Golf Rank - 55.5, Median 31):

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the Tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Rory McIlroy	2	1	2	24
Jhonattan Vegas	113	2	12	135
Bubba Watson	25	3	6	167
Dustin Johnson	3	4	4	74
Jon Rahm	6	5	20	36
Cameron Champ	158	6	1	123
Keith Mitchell	74	6	28	166
Corey Conners	71	8	66	181
Paul Casey	18	9	62	121
Abraham Ancer	37	10	103	113
Jason Kokrak	54	11	17	103
Tommy Fleetwood	13	12	59	55
Jason Day	23	13	38	30
Aaron Wise	79	14	33	132
Brendan Steele	251	15	34	176
Luke List	87	16	3	157
Justin Thomas	5	17	37	144
Patrick Cantlay	7	18	21	26
Gary Woodland	17	19	13	130
Emiliano Grillo	67	20	85	185
Average	55.5	10.45	32.2	113.9
Median	31	10.5	24.5	126.5

World Golf Rankings compared to average drives on PGA tour (Average World Golf Rank - 79.61, Median 51.5):

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Cameron Champ	158	6	1	123
Rory McIlroy	2	1	2	24
Luke List	87	16	3	157
Dustin Johnson	3	4	4	74
Wyndham Clark	151	88	5	8
Bubba Watson	25	3	6	167
Trey Mullinax	290	33	8	169
Tony Finau	12	23	9	125
Brooks Koepka	1	21	10	48
Cameron Davis	237	63	10	147
Jhonattan Vegas	113	2	12	135
Gary Woodland	17	19	13	130
Sam Burns	129	45	14	29
Byeong Hun An	49	29	15	182
J.B. Holmes	60	60	16	187
Jason Kokrak	54	11	17	103
Phil Mickelson	39	165	19	139
Jon Rahm	6	5	20	36
Average	79.6111111	33	10.2222222	110.166667
Median	51.5	20	10	127.5

World Golf Rankings compared to Strokes gained putting on PGA tour (Average World Golf Rank - 102.89, Median 101.5):

Name	World Golf Rankings	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Denny McCarthy	160	95	122	1
Jordan Spieth	33	176	88	2
Graeme McDowell	101	172	165	4
Andrew Putnam	44	184	179	5
Aaron Baddeley	201	177	162	6
Patton Kizzire	148	179	91	7
Wyndham Clark	151	88	5	8
Vaughn Taylor	102	149	174	9
Beau Hossler	126	100	53	10
Webb Simpson	14	114	145	11
Brandt Snedeker	38	147	156	12
Rickie Fowler	19	55	30	13
Pat Perez	152	180	164	14
Billy Horschel	34	75	114	16
Justin Rose	4	67	28	17
Johnson Wagner	282	148	172	18
Peter Malnati	216	171	110	19
Kevin Kisner	27	74	160	20
Average	102.888889	130.611111	117.666667	10.6666667
Median	101.5	147.5	133.5	10.5

The data shows that the Tee shot is much more critical than putting ability at least on the PGA tour.

 

[WMac19]

I used to think for me that driving the ball well was most important as that tended to relax me and help the rest of my game fall into place.

Although this year I've recaptured 10-15 yards lost distance with driver (simple ball position adjustment) and maintained accuracy, my scores have not lowered.

And that's due in combination with subpar iron play but also putting. My putting has not been as solid as year's past. While I'm not often 3-putting, I'm missing VERY makeable par saves and birdies all too often (last 3 rounds were solid, so fingers crossed).

So yup, I'd give up the reclaimed 10-15 yards off the tee for even a 10%-15% improvement with the flat-stick.

 

[5150]

Here is some statistical evidence I pulled from the PGA tour and analyzed in excel that shows "Driving for show" is more important that "Putting for dough"



World Golf Ranking compared to strokes gained off the tee on PGA Tour (Average World Golf Rank - 55.5, Median 31):

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the Tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Rory McIlroy	2	1	2	24
Jhonattan Vegas	113	2	12	135
Bubba Watson	25	3	6	167
Dustin Johnson	3	4	4	74
Jon Rahm	6	5	20	36
Cameron Champ	158	6	1	123
Keith Mitchell	74	6	28	166
Corey Conners	71	8	66	181
Paul Casey	18	9	62	121
Abraham Ancer	37	10	103	113
Jason Kokrak	54	11	17	103
Tommy Fleetwood	13	12	59	55
Jason Day	23	13	38	30
Aaron Wise	79	14	33	132
Brendan Steele	251	15	34	176
Luke List	87	16	3	157
Justin Thomas	5	17	37	144
Patrick Cantlay	7	18	21	26
Gary Woodland	17	19	13	130
Emiliano Grillo	67	20	85	185
Average	55.5	10.45	32.2	113.9
Median	31	10.5	24.5	126.5

World Golf Rankings compared to average drives on PGA tour (Average World Golf Rank - 79.61, Median 51.5):

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Cameron Champ	158	6	1	123
Rory McIlroy	2	1	2	24
Luke List	87	16	3	157
Dustin Johnson	3	4	4	74
Wyndham Clark	151	88	5	8
Bubba Watson	25	3	6	167
Trey Mullinax	290	33	8	169
Tony Finau	12	23	9	125
Brooks Koepka	1	21	10	48
Cameron Davis	237	63	10	147
Jhonattan Vegas	113	2	12	135
Gary Woodland	17	19	13	130
Sam Burns	129	45	14	29
Byeong Hun An	49	29	15	182
J.B. Holmes	60	60	16	187
Jason Kokrak	54	11	17	103
Phil Mickelson	39	165	19	139
Jon Rahm	6	5	20	36
Average	79.6111111	33	10.2222222	110.166667
Median	51.5	20	10	127.5

World Golf Rankings compared to Strokes gained putting on PGA tour (Average World Golf Rank - 102.89, Median 101.5):

Name	World Golf Rankings	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Denny McCarthy	160	95	122	1
Jordan Spieth	33	176	88	2
Graeme McDowell	101	172	165	4
Andrew Putnam	44	184	179	5
Aaron Baddeley	201	177	162	6
Patton Kizzire	148	179	91	7
Wyndham Clark	151	88	5	8
Vaughn Taylor	102	149	174	9
Beau Hossler	126	100	53	10
Webb Simpson	14	114	145	11
Brandt Snedeker	38	147	156	12
Rickie Fowler	19	55	30	13
Pat Perez	152	180	164	14
Billy Horschel	34	75	114	16
Justin Rose	4	67	28	17
Johnson Wagner	282	148	172	18
Peter Malnati	216	171	110	19
Kevin Kisner	27	74	160	20
Average	102.888889	130.611111	117.666667	10.6666667
Median	101.5	147.5	133.5	10.5

The data shows that the Tee shot is much more critical than putting ability at least on the PGA tour.

It would be interesting to see GIR in that data as well.

 

[ntanygd760]

It would be interesting to see GIR in that data as well.

Why strokes gained putting takes away the need to reference if they hit or missed the greens like total putts stat. Proximity would be more meaningful

 

[wubears71]

It would be interesting to see GIR in that data as well.

Here you go:

Name	World Golf Ran k	Strokes Gained off the Tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting	GIR
Corey Conners	71	8	66	181	1
Johnson Wagner	282	148	172	18	2
Paul Casey	18	9	62	121	4
Jason Dufner	163	48	129	175	5
Justin Thomas	5	17	37	144	6
Charles Howell III	59	49	32	43	7
Josh Teater	260	90	112	102	8
Scott Piercy	69	47	106	63	9
Brendan Steele	251	15	34	176	10
Brooks Koepka	1	21	10	48	11
Talor Gooch	186	153	65	70	12
Shawn Stefani	291	164	81	138	12
Martin Laird	230	85	57	95	14
Kevin Streelman	96	25	114	155	15
Jason Day	23	13	38	30	16
Cameron Tringale	294	137	70	51	17
Brice Garnett	167	44	154	75	18
Matt Kuchar	20	94	135	41	20
Average	138.111111	64.8333333	81.8888889	95.8888889	10.3888889
Median	129.5	47.5	68	85	10.5

GIR is pretty meaningless - 138.11 Avg and 129.5 Median.

 

[fuffle master]

Here is some statistical evidence I pulled from the PGA tour and analyzed in excel that shows "Driving for show" is more important that "Putting for dough"



World Golf Ranking compared to strokes gained off the tee on PGA Tour (Average World Golf Rank - 55.5, Median 31):

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the Tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Rory McIlroy	2	1	2	24
Jhonattan Vegas	113	2	12	135
Bubba Watson	25	3	6	167
Dustin Johnson	3	4	4	74
Jon Rahm	6	5	20	36
Cameron Champ	158	6	1	123
Keith Mitchell	74	6	28	166
Corey Conners	71	8	66	181
Paul Casey	18	9	62	121
Abraham Ancer	37	10	103	113
Jason Kokrak	54	11	17	103
Tommy Fleetwood	13	12	59	55
Jason Day	23	13	38	30
Aaron Wise	79	14	33	132
Brendan Steele	251	15	34	176
Luke List	87	16	3	157
Justin Thomas	5	17	37	144
Patrick Cantlay	7	18	21	26
Gary Woodland	17	19	13	130
Emiliano Grillo	67	20	85	185
Average	55.5	10.45	32.2	113.9
Median	31	10.5	24.5	126.5

World Golf Rankings compared to average drives on PGA tour (Average World Golf Rank - 79.61, Median 51.5):

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Cameron Champ	158	6	1	123
Rory McIlroy	2	1	2	24
Luke List	87	16	3	157
Dustin Johnson	3	4	4	74
Wyndham Clark	151	88	5	8
Bubba Watson	25	3	6	167
Trey Mullinax	290	33	8	169
Tony Finau	12	23	9	125
Brooks Koepka	1	21	10	48
Cameron Davis	237	63	10	147
Jhonattan Vegas	113	2	12	135
Gary Woodland	17	19	13	130
Sam Burns	129	45	14	29
Byeong Hun An	49	29	15	182
J.B. Holmes	60	60	16	187
Jason Kokrak	54	11	17	103
Phil Mickelson	39	165	19	139
Jon Rahm	6	5	20	36
Average	79.6111111	33	10.2222222	110.166667
Median	51.5	20	10	127.5

World Golf Rankings compared to Strokes gained putting on PGA tour (Average World Golf Rank - 102.89, Median 101.5):

Name	World Golf Rankings	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Putting
Denny McCarthy	160	95	122	1
Jordan Spieth	33	176	88	2
Graeme McDowell	101	172	165	4
Andrew Putnam	44	184	179	5
Aaron Baddeley	201	177	162	6
Patton Kizzire	148	179	91	7
Wyndham Clark	151	88	5	8
Vaughn Taylor	102	149	174	9
Beau Hossler	126	100	53	10
Webb Simpson	14	114	145	11
Brandt Snedeker	38	147	156	12
Rickie Fowler	19	55	30	13
Pat Perez	152	180	164	14
Billy Horschel	34	75	114	16
Justin Rose	4	67	28	17
Johnson Wagner	282	148	172	18
Peter Malnati	216	171	110	19
Kevin Kisner	27	74	160	20
Average	102.888889	130.611111	117.666667	10.6666667
Median	101.5	147.5	133.5	10.5

The data shows that the Tee shot is much more critical than putting ability at least on the PGA tour.

Now that is an in-depth post and looks like you Putt ???? a lot of work in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wubears71]

Why strokes gained putting takes away the need to reference if they hit or missed the greens like total putts stat. Proximity would be more meaningful

Here you go:

Name	World Golf Ranking	Strokes Gained off the tee	Average Driving Distance	Strokes Gained Puttingq	GIR	Proximity to Hole
Corey Conners	71	8	66	181	1	1
Chez Reavie	28	53	158	84	57	2
Jim Furyk	48	127	186	69	24	3
Jason Dufner	163	48	129	175	5	4
Ryan Armour	153	136	184	53	68	4
Vaughn Taylor	102	149	174	9	91	4
Russell Knox	81	109	139	142	26	7
Chesson Hadley	119	168	63	47	154	8
Keegan Bradley	36	56	61	178	40	10
Joaquin Niemann	83	35	41	141	53	10
Louis Oosthuizen	22	79	77	55	93	10
Nate Lashley	92	154	132	40	72	13
Brian Stuard	162	151	185	54	145	14
Talor Gooch	186	153	65	70	12	15
Charley Hoffman	99	99	87	137	106	15
Paul Casey	18	9	62	121	4	17
Josh Teater	260	90	112	102	8	17
Hideki Matsuyama	26	26	31	97	20	17
Average	97.1666667	91.6666667	108.444444	97.5	54.3888889	9.5
Median	87.5	94.5	99.5	90.5	46.5	10

While it certainly is more meaningful than strokes gained putting and GIR, the Tee Shot is clearly more important than putting or GIR on the PGA tour (at least today).

So Drive for dough, putt for show

 

[wubears71]

Now that is an in-depth post and looks like you Putt ???? a lot of work in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am a statistical nerd so I really enjoy doing it. Once I have the raw data, it's pretty easy to formulate.

 

[fuffle master]

I am a statistical nerd so I really enjoy doing it. Once I have the raw data, it's pretty easy to formulate.

It’s awesome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ntanygd760]

Thank you wubears, those numbers are the type of thing to dive into for a good discussion on the subject.

 

[wubears71]

Thank you wubears, those numbers are the type of thing to dive into for a good discussion on the subject.

My pleasure. I really enjoy it.

 

[5150]

My pleasure. I really enjoy it.

Good stuff sir.

I’m a data nerd as well, although I tend to be more interested in analyzing the relationship between data points than I am in analyzing specific points by themselves.

Golf, to me, is like a complex integrated system: there’s likely more than one cause involved when things go right (and wrong).

What’s the data source? I’ll goof with it a bit as well.

 

[wubears71]

Good stuff sir.

I’m a data nerd as well, although I tend to be more interested in analyzing the relationship between data points than I am in analyzing specific points by themselves.

Golf, to me, is like a complex integrated system: there’s likely more than one cause involved when things go right (and wrong).

What’s the data source? I’ll goof with it a bit as well.

I’m just pulling it from the pga tour website and the official golf rankings. Nothing special.

 

[ntanygd760]

My round today was a good example of playable distance is king.

If I said I had 33 putts, 1.88 putts per GIR, longest putt made was 7 feet and only 5 fairways you would think it was not a good round, it was though, very good. To be fair if I made any putts it would have been very very all time good.

 

[LLIB]

Drive for dough. I only had 25 putts today and shot a 95. How you ask? I’m a short hitter and had hybrid or mid iron on every approach and every par 3. Lots of missed greens which results in chips and pitches which results in fewer putts. Give me more driver length all day long

 

[rollin]

Im still not a believer in looking at pro stats nor discussing who won what on tour as any means of deciding which parts of ones game is more important. My feelings are that its really not relevant because it can only be about ones own game and not at all about what anyone else did nor who won what and how they won it. The only thing that should be referenced is how we (each player as individuals) play our own game vs no one but the course and our own self and just where and how we hurt ourselves the most and lose the most strokes. It doesnt matter what our playing partners or competitors did nor who won what nor how nor what nor how any tour pro did.

The other day my tee game forced 9 recovery shots. 2 of those were lost balls. Several were pitch outs and 2 of those were bad situations that i had to again recover from. And few were simply not so penal via being in play but very short due to popups. I was all over the map not just with driver but also 3 and 5w as well were mixed in there. I lost or better said costed me about a solid 12 extra strokes required to play that round because of tee game. My putting was fine but i did lose another 3 or 4 stokes chipping/short pitching as i just had poor to no feel that day what soever. Id been playing ok ion that area but not the other day it was a bad one. So there is my lost extra strokes in the green-side game and most of them in the tee game. Putting was fine I had only one 3putt from afar with double break and steep slope. had some 1putts and mostly 2 putted all else.