Drive my elbow into my side to prevent over the top?

[V14_Heels]

I really struggled with approach shots from like 100-150 cause I couldn't hit my irons for the life of me, in fixing my irons I've created a pretty nasty over the top on my longer clubs. i actually have a slight over the top on my irons too but honestly it just gives me a nice fade which is totally playable for me as someone who can just break 100. Unfortunately that fade goes a little beyond a fade and ends up being a slice on my driver, 5 wood and even hybrids. I've been using alignment sticks to help figure out how to adjust to get more of inside out attack angle and what i've found is if I drive my right elbow into my side and ensure it doesnt chicken wing I can eliminate the over the top...but is this going to cause me some other issue...like is this a horrific solution for some reason I can't quite see as a newbie?

 

[blugold]

This "drive the elbow" feeling is a compensation for something else already going on. That over the top move is starting way before that point. If you can figure it out, the elbow compensation might be your best bet, but like all compensations, it's going to start to cause opposite problems soon. So, just be ready to "leave the elbow high" at some point.

 

[*Range Rat]

Yep, that's one of my main swing thoughts

 

[Duffer Seamus]

You're trying piecemeal approaches to fix what you believe to be flaws in your swing. Unless I miss my guess: You're also trying these piecemeal approaches without the benefit of mirrors, videoing yourself, or an independent observer? Trying them based on what you think you're doing? Based on feels?

BTDT. It doesn't work. You will "discover" lots of fixes--one after the other. Some will appear to work, for a time, until they don't any more. I've had such "epiphanies" last as little as a few hours.

 

[Desmond]

My instructor has spent a year stopping me from driving my trail elbow into the side - so I say do not. It creates a large in to out path that can lead to other issues besides less speed.

You don't want that trail arm moving out towards the ball either. My instructor and I got a small ball that I put in my trailing hand and we'd throw that ball to each other in the motion of the swing - you can feel sequencing easier - the trailing arm is the last part you move - momentum will move it and then you move it. He also has me twisting the ball to release. So we play catch for 5 minutes, swing for a while, play catch again. I came home and I throw a soft ball against a wall - made a yuge difference. Ball go high, straight and farther - isn't that the idea?

You've got to sequence properly - keep trail arm high, get to front side, turn everything in sequence, arm stays close but you don't push the elbow into the side. This will get your club path from 0-3, which is acceptable for many of us.

 

[blugold]

My instructor has spent a year stopping me from driving my trail elbow into the side - so I say do not. It creates a large in to out path that can lead to other issues besides less speed.

The ole "stuck inside and prayer flip."

 

[Desmond]

The ole "stuck inside and prayer flip."

Yes, I finally got it when I began straightening that trailing right arm earlier - looked at video and OMG, it was not a cast.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

My instructor has spent a year stopping me from driving my trail elbow into the side ...

Yeah, getting out of that bad habit has been one of the most difficult aspects of the drills I'm currently doing.

 

[DG_1234]

Ben Hogan :

 

[V14_Heels]

Ben Hogan :

Wow. I had never watched Ben hogan swing. His upward path is suuuuuper shallow compared to most modern day pros. Very interesting.

 

[DG_1234]

Wow. I had never watched Ben hogan swing. His upward path is suuuuuper shallow compared to most modern day pros. Very interesting.

In response to your OP I posted this Hogan video to show that (from his address posture) he make a relatively level turn. This creates what some refer to as a "flat swing" but to me his turn and plane is simply easy and natural, To your OP question, a level turn like Hogan makes automatically keeps the right elbow close to the body throughout the swing, without ever having to think about it.

 

[V14_Heels]

In response to your OP I posted this Hogan video to show that (from his address posture) he make a relatively level turn. This creates what some refer to as a "flat swing" but to me his turn and plane is simply easy and natural, To your OP question, a level turn like Hogan makes automatically keeps the right elbow close to the body throughout the swing, without ever having to think about it.

Yea I like it quite a bit honestly. It just caught me off guard, there’s just not a whole lot of steep attack angle that’s taught today. It’s very interesting.

 

[razaar]

The trick is to control the backswing with the left arm and left side. The feeling is that the right arm, shoulder don't move very far during the backswing. The right elbow moves away from the body but not behind the body. The ribcage turns to its limit as does the spine. A good picture is to fold the left side over to the right like folding an envelope. This way the club stays in front of the body where it can be controlled. The feeling then during the downswing is the right shoulder drops vertically and the right elbow returns to its earlier position inside the right hip.
Stop taking the club back with the right arm and side and learn left arm control. The left side moves across during the backswing and moves back away from the right side during the forward swing. The separation of the left side from the right side is one of the keys to eliminating casting.

 

[annsguy]

My instructor has spent a year stopping me from driving my trail elbow into the side - so I say do not. It creates a large in to out path that can lead to other issues besides less speed.

You don't want that trail arm moving out towards the ball either. My instructor and I got a small ball that I put in my trailing hand and we'd throw that ball to each other in the motion of the swing - you can feel sequencing easier - the trailing arm is the last part you move - momentum will move it and then you move it. He also has me twisting the ball to release. So we play catch for 5 minutes, swing for a while, play catch again. I came home and I throw a soft ball against a wall - made a yuge difference. Ball go high, straight and farther - isn't that the idea?

You've got to sequence properly - keep trail arm high, get to front side, turn everything in sequence, arm stays close but you don't push the elbow into the side. This will get your club path from 0-3, which is acceptable for many of us.

This is a great drill. My problem is that I’m a lefty but play right handed. I’m likely to knock out a window with my inability to toss a ball right handed. Lol

 

[Tevenor]

One thing to consider is timing. As @razaar mentioned, keeping the club/ hands in front of the chest and not stuck behind it during the down swing has more to do with eliminating casting then simply driving the right elbow in.

 

[Acesteve]

some great advice in this thread which I agree with and struggle with at times even during an otherwise good round. In post #2 @blugold makes the point I believe about my own problems; the problem has already started by the time I get to the top of my swing. Yesterday on number 10 I actually re-gripped my club at the top. I think sometimes I'm so far out of position that the right hand and side taking over to bail me out. I never considered that before last 6 months but now that is my current theory.

Changing from a trail hand dominant player has been a journey I've been on for about 2 years now. If you have played 25 years letting the right hand do things it should not it takes time to get that out of your putting, chipping, pitching, irons and driver play. Just wish I'd started 23 years ago.

 

[Desmond]

This is a great drill. My problem is that I’m a lefty but play right handed. I’m likely to knock out a window with my inability to toss a ball right handed. Lol

I am also a lefty who plays right handed. I use the small "Impact Ball" that I bought for my son. I've worked on using that right arm to get it more involved.

 

[Summit]

You need to figure out what is the cause of the move. Majority of the time it is caused by a strong trailside pushing instead of the lead side pulling. A lot of amateurs will try to gain speed and power by using their dominant hand/arm/side to power the swing. For a right handed golfer, using their right arm to power the swing forces the left side to clear from the top and that is the shaft of the over the top move.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Stop taking the club back with the right arm and side and learn left arm control.

I just finished spending a lot of time learning to do exactly the opposite of that. We are taught to drive the takeaway with the trailing side obliques.

 

[V14_Heels]

There is a ton of helpful advice in here for sure, while at the same time showing how many different ways there are teach this some of which actually contradict each other. So hard...

I would definitely say my #1 issue is my sequencing is definitely off, but it's just so hard to make that sequencing natural. I can't wait for the time when I have a natural swing that I'm not having to think about so much. I envy you all who just get to go up and hit it and swing is just sub conscious.

 

[Acesteve]

I just finished spending a lot of time learning to do exactly the opposite of that. We are taught to drive the takeaway with the trailing side obliques.

wow, hard to imagine that.

Many years ago I think I played like that and I will say I was a decent iron and fw wood player but could never hit a driver. Years later I would learn my angle of impact on a driver was very negative.

Still, I think many approaches can work and everything is relative to the flaw one has.

 

[Reframmellator]

This "drive the elbow" feeling is a compensation for something else already going on. That over the top move is starting way before that point. If you can figure it out, the elbow compensation might be your best bet, but like all compensations, it's going to start to cause opposite problems soon. So, just be ready to "leave the elbow high" at some point.

This is the story of my golf swing:

 

[razaar]

I just finished spending a lot of time learning to do exactly the opposite of that. We are taught to drive the takeaway with the trailing side obliques.

yes I read that. The obliques can assist the the body coil but the rotator muscles attached to he spine are the rotatores and the multifidus. The rotatores are a group of small muscles, each located on one of the boney projection, called transverse processes, and connected to the vertebra above it. Their concerted action rotates the body to the opposite side. They work in concert with the multifidus, a group of larger muscles, each spanning two to four vertebrae from their origin in the sacrum to the thoracic vertebrae of the upper back. Both sets of rotatores and multifidus muscles on either side of the spine work together to stretch the whole trunk, while those on the left work together to rotate the trunk to the right and vice versa.

 

[WILDTHING]

Here are some images for comparison

First Ben Hogan - Pitch elbow


DJ -Pitch elbow



Russell Heritage avoiding an OTT using a pitch elbow



Russell Heritage pitching his right elbow but still OTT because his kinematic sequence was wrong.


So a pitch elbow in itself might not cure an OTT move . If I was the OP , I'd go see an instructor to look at his whole swing from setup/posture/alignment (and any physical limitations) and then check for a correct kinematic sequence using an optimal pelvic rotation and upper body pivot . I'd suggest getting these right and swinging well within himself, in balance ,practice keeping the clubshaft swinging on plane and in rhythm so that he can time the release properly ensuring that the clubhead speed peaks approaching impact (not too much before or after).

 

[Rusty Dave]

The swing is all about sequencing. OTT is usually caused by an overactive upper body.
Start the downswing with the lower body. With relaxed arms the arms should drop in the slot. The arms/hands are the last thing to fire.
There are a ton of online videos for the cure and I watched everyone of them. Multiple lessons, etc... the only thing that finally worked was proper sequencing.