We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Flagstick - Science says you should pull it 99.9% of the time.

Pretty interesting article, and a different approach than what I have seen so far, especially with doing putts that would go certain distances past the hole.

I did notice that the last time I played I focused too much on asking everyone about pulling or not pulling the flag. I will add that we never discussed it before we played too, and had no pace of play issues, but I felt the flow on the green wasn't as good since it seemed we asked each other about the pin more than normal, or it appeared that way to me.

Until a putt really impacts my game, I don't care whether it's in or out when it's my turn unless it's a long putt, then I would ask to put it back in, like I have always done.
 
Schanker said:
How did he define center strike vs off center strike? You'd think a putt only rolling 6' passed with a center strike (no pin) would go down more than 35% of the time.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. I'm assuming they used flat/straight putts so that it was easy to ensure center vs. off center. They also used a Perfect Putt device to ensure the putts were the same each time.
 
Canadan said:
This is basically my experiences with a pin in the hole.

I know there's lots of info flying, but visually speaking, this is how I perceive and have experienced it, and why there's no way I'll make the switch.
Click to expand...

This exactly. I would gladly trade the 5 seconds per hole (one minute and a half per round) of time spent pulling the pin to avoid this scenario.
 
Science proves you should pull the pin if it annoys you.
 
I find these removing the flag studies and threads are taking away from the Kuchar/Mayakoba thread.
 
I think these studies and analytics on the issue are fun to debate on the internet or in the bar after a round but completely worthless as to what any individual should do. I don't care if there's a stick, no stick, or a dynamite stick in there...it doesn't matter if you miss or come up short of the hole. If you have trouble aiming and drawing a line on the green between your ball and the cup like I do and the stick helps you with that...leave it in. If you tend to come up short like many do and banging the stick like a back board gives you a good mental image to help with that....leave it in. If you are already comfortable with your sight line and getting the ball there, probably no reason to add a new visual in to the equation so take the stick out. If you don't care either way, leave it in and speed things up.

The analytics of whether or not a flagstick helps or hurts when it comes to balls entering the cup are probably fine for pros and great putters who get it there regularly, but I don't think it's anywhere near as important to most of us as creating a comfortable visual for us to actually get it there with more consistency.

I have a guy in my league who's an awful putter, he could miss a 12 incher by six inches to the left...and usually comes up way short. In a team match we forced him to leave it in and kept telling him, hit the stick with the ball...he putt better than ever. That is of course until he hit the stick one time and it popped out so he blamed the stick and takes it out all the time now...and he's back to missing way left and/or several feet short. So the point is, even if you could prove scientifically that it can cause an otherwise good putt to pop out, what does that matter in the grand scheme if it's helping you give another dozen putts a better chance of actually getting there.
 
Like all good debates I think most folks have already made their mind up and simply read the research or cite anecdotal evidence that aligns with their belief. I think this one will be no different LOL!!!
 
In Bryson I trust, Guys got it down to an molecule. Honestly pulling if I feel it’s correct at the moment just an instinct for myself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The MyGolfSpy test I saw was pretty conclusive the other way. Leaving the flag in leads to way more putts holed. As I can’t even hit the hole with the flag in from short range though, I’ll continue to pull it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It appears that MGS seems to be a little less than enthused about this article. They just posted a video inviting GD and this professor to come and test it with them. Seems like he took it personal.
 
Unless I missed it and I may have, in which case I apologize, but Pelz doesn't seem to address two key points - the thickness of the flagstick, and breaking putts, so how complete is his data? not very it seems.
 
Last week I played a solo round on a very windy day and left the flagstick in all day. I had a short chip and a putt that were going at the center half of the hole but not dead center at a pace to go past the hole 3-5 feet. Both bounced off the flagstick and finished less than 3 feet from the cup. Real world results that agree with the data in this article. I know from experience both would have gone in with the flag out or or possibly if the the wind wasn’t bending the flagstick towards one side of the hole. Had I been playing in a group I would have pulled the flagstick and had an even par day instead of a 74.

I honestly don’t care what anyone else does with the flagstick. I don’t think speed of play will be changed at all by this rule. Slow players will continue to be slow. My golf season starts tomorrow with 6 rounds planned for the next 7 days. It will be interesting to see first hand what others think of the new flagstick rule.
 
Last edited:
I enjoyed reading the study, and I appreciate the science behind it. However because putting is as much feel as technique, I haven't deciding one way or another about leaving the pin in. I'll see once my season starts here (this weekend)
 
I think I mentioned this on the other thread, but I tried with the flagstick in until
I had two instances where the consensus of the guys I was playing with was the the putts would have gone in but for the flagstick. During that time I never made a putt where I felt the flagstick helped me either by going in or keeping the ball closer than if it hadn’t been in.

My group has no problem with leaving it in and unattended for longer lag putts or until the first guy putts and is there to putt out, mark or pick up and is close enough to easily attend the flag as desired by the next guy. Once out no one has any issues with leaving it out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
tahoebum said:
I honestly don’t care what anyone else does with the flagstick. I don’t think speed of play will be changed at all by this rule. Slow players will continue to be slow. My golf season starts tomorrow with 6 rounds planned for the next 7 days. It will be interesting to see first hand what others think of the new flagstick rule.
Click to expand...

Problem is when you have multiple slow players ahead of you who each have different preferences. Shouldn’t matter in theory, but in reality most slow players are slow because they’re paying zero attention to anything until it’s their turn and then aren’t ready to hit. So with the flagstick you have the issue of four dipshits, none of which are using common sense like holding the flag or letting people with the same preference follow each other. It’s pull it out...drop...putt...complain about putt...stare at each other until someone picks it up...replace...putt...miss putt...complain...stare at each other until someone pulls it...drop..........����
 
mancest said:
Exactly, one science says it is better to leave it in, another says it is better to pull the flag... I had a 40' birdie putt lip out with the pin in, it caught the high side corner and rode the back of the cup never touching the flag and a guy in my group goes "that is why you should pull the pin".... Ball never touched the stick, so it had ZERO impact on that particular putt going in or out...

I think many of these studies have confirmation bias, they want a certain outcome so they focus on proving it right. Personally I could care less. If the people putting in front of me want it in, leave it in, if someone in front of me wants it out, leave it out.
Click to expand...

To your first paragraph yes I agree there is always going to be the predetermined logic that the pin will cause a missed putt. Too many times people use the result they were anticipating and automatically becomes the (in their mind) that the pin lost them that putt. And even to the point as in your example where the ball didn't even touch the pin. But even if it did there is really no way to know whether the given put would have gone in if the flag was pulled. But its what they anticipated so the blame is going to go wherever they want it to. But claiming a victory to any argument based on just one putt is ridicules anyway. Its like trying a new club or ball and having a great or poor shot and then making a determination based on that one shot. It hold no water.

I agree with your second paragraph. The study in this thread is imo as bias as it can come. He set out to prove his point but did so in a manor which favors his desired results. I mean 90 balls were rolled at the exact place that created the worst chances and at a speed where the differences begin to appear. He basically caught the sweatspot just for what he wanted and drove that home with the 90 balls. Its just math made to order

The pelz study however had no bias and was really done originally for chipping purposes. However was done in a putting fashion so happens to wirk well for putting. He didn't do his study to prove a point one way but did it to determine (as he wondered) which way works best and which way he would then suggest is best. So there was no bias towards one way or the other. He used 3 speeds, at 5 different areas of the cup (not at all any one sweat spot) and then did this on flat and also again sloped. The study consisted of thousands (not 90 or even 300) but thousands of balls and then also had someone physically putting a huge sum of balls as well. That is one heck of a huge sample size vs what anyone else has done and must have been one heck of a long term trial. The whole pelz process imo was without bias assistance of any sweatspot and is simply much too large and very good mixed sample size to be overturned by a (relatively speaking ) tiny sample and one of bias experimentation.
 
Last edited:
These studies just crack me up. If you like it in leave it in if like it out take it out, such a moot point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mark_UK said:
The MyGolfSpy test I saw was pretty conclusive the other way. Leaving the flag in leads to way more putts holed. As I can’t even hit the hole with the flag in from short range though, I’ll continue to pull it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It was causing me the same problems until I stopped trying to hit the hole and started trying to hit the flag from short range. That stopped whatever my brain was doing. I am not sure how you were missing but I kept slightly going beside the hole when I was close with the flag in.
 
DataDude said:
It was causing me the same problems until I stopped trying to hit the hole and started trying to hit the flag from short range. That stopped whatever my brain was doing. I am not sure how you were missing but I kept slightly going beside the hole when I was close with the flag in.
Click to expand...

This is interesting because I’ve recently started barely missing 3-4’ putts and have been trying to figure out what was going on. I’m not seeing the same problem on the practice green. I’m going to have to try your thought process on the course and see if it helps.
 
Ive always found the pin pleasing to the eye (for me). But also to me ots really no different than those mini flags on a practice green. I usually don't allow many things at all to bother me like noise or movements or such. So just for me and in my head the flag simple has no affect as I can good or bad either way. The only thing that alwys seemed bothersome to me wa having to deal with in general. Especially when someone always wants it pulled while chipping and I have yet to chip but had preferred it in. Im like (in my head) c'mon man just take your shot cause now I or someone else has to go and get it for you and all that pertains to doing so and yet all the while I want to make my chip/pitch with it in.
 
kenh said:
Dave Pelz says he has tons of real-world data that says you should always leave it in. https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

I love Pelz' data-driven approach and will go with him over a theoretical assessment.

(Shrug) I'm leaving it in. Doing so noticeably speeded up my league round last week. The only downside I found was that it was sort of annoying on short putts.
Click to expand...

There is nothing theoretical about the video in the link provided though. Actual realized samples that show the pin rejecting the ball vs it going in without the pin.

Visual, real life on video samples.
 
rollin said:
Ive always found the pin pleasing to the eye (for me). But also to me ots really no different than those mini flags on a practice green. I usually don't allow many things at all to bother me like noise or movements or such. So just for me and in my head the flag simple has no affect as I can good or bad either way. The only thing that alwys seemed bothersome to me wa having to deal with in general. Especially when someone always wants it pulled while chipping and I have yet to chip but had preferred it in. Im like (in my head) c'mon man just take your shot cause now I or someone else has to go and get it for you and all that pertains to doing so and yet all the while I want to make my chip/pitch with it in.
Click to expand...

I’m the opposite. I routinely pull the practice green mini flags when I’m putting inside of 15 feet. On the course, a six or seven foot tall flagstick with it’s flapping flag in the wind and shadow are too much visual noise for my brain to handle and I will always pull it from inside that distance. This new flagstick rule gives way more options for accommodating individual preference such as your example of pulling the flag for chipping. I’m thinking now that the USGA should have just left it as it was....sort of reminds me of their decision of banning anchoring the putter after allowing it for 60 years.

I really hope that this new rule will not slow play down at my club. It certainly seems that opinions are split on this topic!
 
I usually leave the flag in on casual rounds and my partner on our Wednesday scramble prefers it in. But three times in the last two weeks I saw puts deflected by the flag where I believe they would have dropped with flag out.
I think I’ll be flag out for awhile.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top