Importance of Course Management

[2BFAST]

That is something Id say that even avid better (than high cap) players may be a poorer choice. The 60 lw is a specialty club not even used by many people. Thats not really what i man when I refer to a basic golf shot. So the lw (or the struggles with one) could imo actually be a poor choice.

Making poor choices regardless of what they are is poor course management regardless of ability. No matter if its a LW like mentioned, going at a tucked pin with trouble all around, punching out of trees, whatever it may be. Its a choice, and a bad choice is poor course management no matter how you slice it. For a high capper, using a high lofted LW around the greens is a poor choice resulting in poor course management.

 

[rollin]

That is something Id say that even avid better (than high cap) players may be a poorer choice. The 60 lw is a specialty club not even used by many people. Thats not really what i man when I refer to a basic golf shot. So the lw (or the struggles with one) could imo actually be a poor choice.

Making poor choices regardless of what they are is poor course management regardless of ability. No matter if its a LW like mentioned, going at a tucked pin with trouble all around, punching out of trees, whatever it may be. Its a choice, and a bad choice is poor course management no matter how you slice it. For a high capper, using a high lofted LW around the greens is a poor choice resulting in poor course management.

yes i agreed and stated the LW can be a poor choice. Reason being is that its not what I consider a basic club and shot. its more a specialty club and also one in which is difficult for many people and many who are lower than high cappers dont even use one or are very careful about when to select the use of one. There are plenty other basic options for basic chips and pitches that are easier for a higher capper to use than a LW.

But when it comes to making a basic golf shot like say a 5iron from 5i distance or some other longer club from that clubs distance while in the firway with nothing special invloved in the stance, lie, layout, landing area,etc....those are basic shots. And just because a 20 capper may struggle with some of the basic clubs in the bag doesnt imo make it a bad choice because imo at some point we all have to simply play the game for what it is. I only use 5iron as example. But its a club that is part of our basic club line-up and when at that distance while nothing special about the scenario its just a basic golf shot. Even if the 20 capper fails often at that shot i just dont think we can call it a bad choice. We are out there to play the game for what it is. being at 5 iron or 4iron or 5w whatever distance is what it is. Nothing special about the shot other than basic ability (or lack of) then its not poor managing to attempt it, uits just part of basic golf.

 

[Tadashi70]

this comment fascinates me. You are obviously a well respected instructor and I have seen nothing to convince me that should change. As such, valuing your opinions on things and putting extra weight on them is something I do. But this one seems to run counter to common statements. Would love to hear you elaborate on it. Even when swinging well, there are some measure of misses on the majority of swings, and course management is at least partially managing misses? Quote willing to be wrong here, but that is a large part of my understanding going in

When my swing is on, I don’t hold back. I hit driver when not needed, I take the lesser club and hit hard and I take lines that are more aggressive. I’m not worried about misses or playing to a yardage because I know my yardages will be fine and most everything will be solid.

If the game is a bit off then I’m playing clubs that keep me short of trouble. I’m mixing it up off the tee and playing to the fat part of the green.

 

[5150]

Some random approach to course management is setting some goals and rules.

When we where students and had no money for clubs we made a pact that you are allowed to play with irons only, until you can break 100. Then you are allowed to buy a used 3 wood and the next goal was to break 90 at which point you are allowed to buy a used driver. All three of us did this and it was invaluable.

It thought me a few things:

1. If you can’t smack a driver over all the trouble you become more aware of choosing a side of the fairway to leave it on.
2. Most par 4’s and all par 5’s are reachable with irons only.
3. Full shots into greens have a higher success rate than awkward sub 50 yard distances
4. If the driver isn’t working on a given day you can still play your Handicap
5. You become very confident with your irons and when you do need to scramble it’s almost like going to a familiar happy place.

Give it a go. Play 18 holes with only irons and see what happens. Bet you you’ll come in under Handicap after just a few times out.

My personal best scores on my home course have always come when I left the driver and woods in the car.

 

[rollin]

When my swing is on, I don’t hold back. I hit driver when not needed, I take the lesser club and hit hard and I take lines that are more aggressive. I’m not worried about misses or playing to a yardage because I know my yardages will be fine and most everything will be solid.

If the game is a bit off then I’m playing clubs that keep me short of trouble. I’m mixing it up off the tee and playing to the fat part of the green.

what tadashi says above is what i meant when I brought up the point that good managing for a 20 capper (or any different levels of ability) can be two very different things. They can at times even be complete opposite choices. When one has raw ability they can (when playing well, or even just pretty good) play a riskier game because the success rate is still living very much in the high percentile. Things the higher capper should avoid can often be the smarter play managing for the much better player.

 

[DG_1234]

what tadashi says above is what i meant when I brought up the point that good managing for a 20 capper (or any different levels of ability) can be two very different things. They can at times even be complete opposite choices. When one has raw ability they can (when playing well, or even just pretty good) play a riskier game because the success rate is still living very much in the high percentile. Things the higher capper should avoid can often be the smarter play managing for the much better player.

Good vs poor course management has always been evident at the pro level. To win tournaments, the greatest of all time, Jack Nicklaus, consistently deployed excellent course management. Developing a swing technique that took one side of the course out of play, laying up on par 5 tee shots and second shots, 1-irons and 3-woods off lots of par 4 and par 5 tee boxes, playing for the fat of greens etc... were all hallmarks of the Nicklaus playing style.
Most playing pros during the Nicklaus era, on up until today, don't have near the course management discipline which he did.

 

[rollin]

My personal best scores on my home course have always come when I left the driver and woods in the car.

I certainly believe what your stating, but it sort of goes back to something I mentioned a few times. Imo only of course,.... while it works its not imo an answer to playing the game for what it is. leaving the woods in the car imo is not part of why i play the game. To each his own but as i've maintained in the thread, basic golf shots is what we do, try to do and practice and take lessons for and is how we play the game. It doesnt sit well with me to ever leave my driver or woods in the car and play a sort of stripped down version of golf. Imo thats not an answer to better golf but only some better scores. Sounds contradicting i know but i really feel at some point we have to play the basic game with our bag of clubs for what it is. fwiw i can move up a tee or two to the front and leave my dr,3w and probably 5w in my car cause i wouldnt "need" any of them anymore but is that the game i strive to improve at and want to play? not for me it isnt.

My driver "use to be" one the more consistent clubs (beleive it or not) in my bag. Since many lessons and swing rebuild im a better ball striker in general but for some godly reason it has resulted in really hurt my driving. been working on this for past year and half. I could easily leave my driver now in the car and would be just long eneough with 3w on majority of holes from my 6300 to 6400 tees and probably get rid of a number of costly misses. i dont use driver on all par4's But imo Im not going to remove driver but rather work it back to what it use to be for me and honestly use it on the holes for basic driving in which i have little reason (other than lacking success right now) not to use it. Choosing to use it is not imo to be considered poor or mismanaging. Its just basic golf and some struggling with that basic golf. My current scores are lowest when my driver struggles are at a minimum but chosing to remove driver is just not imo an answer. Bad managing decision (to me) is if I use my driver on a shorter dogleg and then hit it through the leg and into the trees. I hit shorter clubs on those holes and that imo is good managing. But on a longer hole and with little concern except outright lack of ability someitmes is not what i consider bad choice. Using it on a 390 yard hole that has no real threat of concerns is just a basic golf shot and imo is playing the game or what it is.

And mind you....Im a big fan of playing to smart choices and avoiding bad ones. But just that at some point we have to play the basic game we put our efforts into learning and improving. You've got to imo play basic golf for what it is. Go ahead and remove driver (plenty people do) and your woods also if it makes you happy. Whatever floats your boat . But to me its all just part of the basic game and failing at that (like a 20 capper will do a decent percentage of the time) is not bad managing. Its just needing to improve on consistency.

 

[rollin]

Good vs poor course management has always been evident at the pro level. To win tournaments, the greatest of all time, Jack Nicklaus, consistently deployed excellent course management. Developing a swing technique that took one side of the course out of play, laying up on par 5 tee shots and second shots, 1-irons and 3-woods off lots of par 4 and par 5 tee boxes, playing for the fat of greens etc... were all hallmarks of the Nicklaus playing style.
Most playing pros during the Nicklaus era, on up until today, don't have near the course management discipline which he did.

And all it takes is for someone in a given tourney to get hot or be aggressive and successful and start to pull away. Or you simply played a bit too poorly in the beginning and have alot of catching up to do. At that point if you want to win you have to also be aggressive. Think (since you mentioned him) jack.... in 86 masters. That greatest comeback (probably the greatest one ever in golf) was not about conservative play. But i just dont like to use tour pros when comapring most things about our golf as we live in two different worlds. The smarter decsions for one of great ability can often be ciomplete oposite of what a smart decsion is for most of us. And again....competing can also be a different thing. They say that jack didnt have so many birdies but more that he simply pared more than everyone else. which would speak to good managing in general. But still even his good and safer managing at that level can still be two different things vs what it is for us.

 

[5150]

I certainly believe what your stating, but it sort of goes back to something I mentioned a few times. Imo only of course,.... while it works its not imo an answer to playing the game for what it is. leaving the woods in the car imo is not part of why i play the game. To each his own but as i've maintained in the thread, basic golf shots is what we do, try to do and practice and take lessons for and is how we play the game. It doesnt sit well with me to ever leave my driver or woods in the car and play a sort of stripped down version of golf. Imo thats not an answer to better golf but only some better scores. Sounds contradicting i know but i really feel at some point we have to play the basic game with our bag of clubs for what it is. fwiw i can move up a tee or two to the front and leave my dr,3w and probably 5w in my car cause i wouldnt "need" any of them anymore but is that the game i strive to improve at and want to play? not for me it isnt.

My driver "use to be" one the more consistent clubs (beleive it or not) in my bag. Since many lessons and swing rebuild im a better ball striker in general but for some godly reason it has resulted in really hurt my driving. been working on this for past year and half. I could easily leave my driver now in the car and would be just long eneough with 3w on majority of holes from my 6300 to 6400 tees and probably get rid of a number of costly misses. i dont use driver on all par4's But imo Im not going to remove driver but rather work it back to what it use to be for me and honestly use it on the holes for basic driving in which i have little reason (other than lacking success right now) not to use it. Choosing to use it is not imo to be considered poor or mismanaging. Its just basic golf and some struggling with that basic golf. My current scores are lowest when my driver struggles are at a minimum but chosing to remove driver is just not imo an answer. Bad managing decision (to me) is if I use my driver on a shorter dogleg and then hit it through the leg and into the trees. I hit shorter clubs on those holes and that imo is good managing. But on a longer hole and with little concern except outright lack of ability someitmes is not what i consider bad choice. Using it on a 390 yard hole that has no real threat of concerns is just a basic golf shot and imo is playing the game or what it is.

And mind you....Im a big fan of playing to smart choices and avoiding bad ones. But just that at some point we have to play the basic game we put our efforts into learning and improving. You've got to imo play basic golf for what it is. Go ahead and remove driver (plenty people do) and your woods also if it makes you happy. Whatever floats your boat . But to me its all just part of the basic game and failing at that (like a 20 capper will do a decent percentage of the time) is not bad managing. Its just needing to improve on consistency.

I agree. I’d rather feel confident with the driver and woods than leave them in the car. The fact that my lowest scores on my home course have come without them is due to (in my opinion) 2 factors:

1) As you’ve suggested, I need to do some work to be more proficient with those clubs, and

2) On my home course... they’re just not necessary to score. I’ll explain (as I should’ve in my first reply that you quoted - my bad).

It’s a 9 hole track that is cheap, fun and within stumbling distance of my house. 2 par 3s, a 475y par 5 and the rest are par 4s.

None of the par 4s are over 310y. For the longer hitters (not me) they are all drive-able.

The guys who run the course know this, so the greens are surrounded by trouble. Thick brush, tall grass, etc welcomes the errant tee shot. Additionally the course penalizes long misses with out-of-bounds or serious trouble behind 8 out of the 9 greens. Lastly... since it’s a cheap course... the greens are small.

So, at my home course anyway, leaving the driver and woods in the car is about playing the course with my brain instead of my ego. Greens are small, surrounded by trouble and long is dead - why would I go after them with a low lofted club off the tee? I’m better off playing to a yardage I like off the tee to get a comfortable approach shot and avoid the trouble.

It’s a par 35, and so far my best two rounds (both 36s) were with nothing longer than a 5i, which resulted in more GIRs, more pars, etc.

Now, back to course management, and to your point: would that approach work on a longer course? Not necessarily. My lowest round ever on a “real” course is a 78, and that day, I felt like I couldn’t miss with the driver, so I used it.

 

[InTheRough]

I've started taking what my game gives me. No hero shots. I always try to advance the ball out of trouble because the chances of bottling the chip out are not much better than bottling the shot advancing the ball. I'm usually in among the trees near the fairway so it's just keeping it low. And if it's bad sometimes stroke and distance is actually the smarter play.

I've also learned that using the rules to ones advantage can help. For example in a tournament I crushed my 3W where it ended up behind a tree near the green complex. The ball was very playable, but I had no shot. The approach area was very narrow and there was a chance that I'd overshoot my "chip out" and end up in the rough on the other side. So I took an unplayable lie and a 1 stroke penalty. This gave me a perfect lie and perfect angle to the hole. I chipped up to 3' from the cup and putted in for par.

And it's 5:37 and it's night already.

 

[CobraX51]

Importance of course management on 2 blown holes on Veteran's Day...

Par 5 a perfect drive but a dog-leg left. My nephew was 5 yards behind me and hit a 7iron to the middle of the fairway on his 2nd shot, he wound up being 100 yards away from the green. I decided to grab hybrid and plan for the draw/hook. It went dead straight into someone's backyard, white stakes, laying 3 hitting 4 and saved bogey. Stuuuuuupid play by me. Should've just hit the same iron my nephew did, or even an 8 iron and leave myself a wedge.

Par 3 194 tail wind to a back pin. All day I've been below the hole. I should've hit 5iron but I hit a perfect 4hybrid dead at the flag. One bounce on the back of the green and rolled off the back into the water. Brutal double bogey.

Wasted strokes due to not playing the hole correctly. Going to continue with the strategy of staying below the hole.

 

[darthweasel]

Importance of course management on 2 blown holes on Veteran's Day...

Par 5 a perfect drive but a dog-leg left. My nephew was 5 yards behind me and hit a 7iron to the middle of the fairway on his 2nd shot, he wound up being 100 yards away from the green. I decided to grab hybrid and plan for the draw/hook. It went dead straight into someone's backyard, white stakes, laying 3 hitting 4 and saved bogey. Stuuuuuupid play by me. Should've just hit the same iron my nephew did, or even an 8 iron and leave myself a wedge.

Par 3 194 tail wind to a back pin. All day I've been below the hole. I should've hit 5iron but I hit a perfect 4hybrid dead at the flag. One bounce on the back of the green and rolled off the back into the water. Brutal double bogey.

Wasted strokes due to not playing the hole correctly. Going to continue with the strategy of staying below the hole.

some people smarter than I would argue you had correct club though...go to the back of the green not the center. That it did not work out in this instance does not affect the long-term plan. At least, that is my understanding of how they state it.

 

[CobraX51]

some people smarter than I would argue you had correct club though...go to the back of the green not the center. That it did not work out in this instance does not affect the long-term plan. At least, that is my understanding of how they state it.

I would have the correct club had their not been a tailwind. That was my mistake. With perfect conditions I'd hit that hybrid every time. Even if I land short of the green with 5i or 30 feet away for birdie. I'm going to walk off with Par or Bogey at the worst. The double sucked.

 

[Snickerdog]

I would have the correct club had their not been a tailwind. That was my mistake. With perfect conditions I'd hit that hybrid every time. Even if I land short of the green with 5i or 30 feet away for birdie. I'm going to walk off with Par or Bogey at the worst. The double sucked.

Nailed it!!! You have to know those added distances with and against wind. Yes sometimes you will be tricked by catching gusts that you can't control, but it is still about making the correct play and eliminating the trouble.

 

[rollin]

Importance of course management on 2 blown holes on Veteran's Day...

Par 5 a perfect drive but a dog-leg left. My nephew was 5 yards behind me and hit a 7iron to the middle of the fairway on his 2nd shot, he wound up being 100 yards away from the green. I decided to grab hybrid and plan for the draw/hook. It went dead straight into someone's backyard, white stakes, laying 3 hitting 4 and saved bogey. Stuuuuuupid play by me. Should've just hit the same iron my nephew did, or even an 8 iron and leave myself a wedge.

Par 3 194 tail wind to a back pin. All day I've been below the hole. I should've hit 5iron but I hit a perfect 4hybrid dead at the flag. One bounce on the back of the green and rolled off the back into the water. Brutal double bogey.

Wasted strokes due to not playing the hole correctly. Going to continue with the strategy of staying below the hole.

Im confused about what you describe as...."laying 3, hitting 4"
And so your #2 shot goes OOB, did you replay from same spot now hitting 4? What did you end up hitting the second time to then get yourself up and down for that bogey? Did you hybrid again and make the green the second time around and then 2putt for the 6? or did you lay up and wedge in afterwards and then a one putt for the 6?

 

[CobraX51]

Im confused about what you describe as...."laying 3, hitting 4"
And so your #2 shot goes OOB, did you replay from same spot now hitting 4? What did you end up hitting the second time to then get yourself up and down for that bogey? Did you hybrid again and make the green the second time around and then 2putt for the 6? or did you lay up and wedge in afterwards and then a one putt for the 6?

No. I looked for my ball around the persons backyard. Didn't find it. Group behind us in the fairway. I dropped in front of a white stake. Laying 3 hitting 4. I landed on the green and 2 putted for 6.

Do I care that it was white stakes? No. I wanted to keep the pace going with a group behind us. Did I write down 6? Yes. Did I record this round for my handicap? No. Did I have fun? Yes.

 

[rollin]

No. I looked for my ball around the persons backyard. Didn't find it. Group behind us in the fairway. I dropped in front of a white stake. Laying 3 hitting 4. I landed on the green and 2 putted for 6.

Do I care that it was white stakes? No. I wanted to keep the pace going with a group behind us. Did I write down 6? Yes. Did I record this round for my handicap? No. Did I have fun? Yes.

I wasnt getting at that as a point. I was honestly just wondering (in line with the subject) about the further decisions of managing the hole that were made by you. Was wondering if you tried the same thing a second time and were sucessful or cose the layup route that second time around.

But since you brought it up. You could have used next years rule. Droppend on edge of fairway and gave yourself 2 strokes. Fwiw that could have worked even more so to speak to you about what the poor decision costed you. The "fun" doesnt have to chage either way. Just sayin.

One the things I would like to know was......is the shot in question (hybrid dogleg) a shot you pull off more times than not? If so it may not actually be the wrong decisions (or poor managing) but simply that this was one of the times it didnt work. I know for me Im probablly failing that most times so in my case not a good managing decisions. But for you just may be its a shot you normally have in your bag.

 

[CobraX51]

I wasnt getting at that as a point. I was honestly just wondering (in line with the subject) about the further decisions of managing the hole that were made by you. Was wondering if you tried the same thing a second time and were sucessful or cose the layup route that second time around.

But since you brought it up. You could have used next years rule. Droppend on edge of fairway and gave yourself 2 strokes. Fwiw that could have worked even more so to speak to you about what the poor decision costed you. The "fun" doesnt have to chage either way. Just sayin.

One the things I would like to know was......is the shot in question (hybrid dogleg) a shot you pull off more times than not? If so it may not actually be the wrong decisions (or poor managing) but simply that this was one of the times it didnt work. I know for me Im probablly failing that most times so in my case not a good managing decisions. But for you just may be its a shot you normally have in your bag.

I gotcha. To be honest I don't really care to know the intricacies about the rules of golf, old and new. I know white stakes you have to re-tee/ play a provisional or play the same shot but I'll just drop where I went OB, and record it for my handicap, I don't really care. Red stakes I can drop in that area. I don't play tournaments, and if I "cheat myself" by putting a lower score than what I did then so be it, I'm a reverse sandbagger instead of a sandbagger, I'll take being the former all day. Lord knows how many gimmies I've taken and still record it for my handicap, or using a rangefinder with slope, or having 15 clubs in my bag, all rule breakers.

Now in terms of the shot that I didn't pull off originally. It was just me being over ambitious. I wanted a 40-50 yard wedge shot instead of being smart laying up with an iron. I hit a great hybrid, it just went dead straight.

 

[rollin]

I gotcha. To be honest I don't really care to know the intricacies about the rules of golf, old and new. I know white stakes you have to re-tee/ play a provisional or play the same shot but I'll just drop where I went OB, and record it for my handicap, I don't really care. Red stakes I can drop in that area. I don't play tournaments, and if I "cheat myself" by putting a lower score than what I did then so be it, I'm a reverse sandbagger instead of a sandbagger, I'll take being the former all day. Lord knows how many gimmies I've taken and still record it for my handicap, or using a rangefinder with slope, or having 15 clubs in my bag, all rule breakers.

Now in terms of the shot that I didn't pull off originally. It was just me being over ambitious. I wanted a 40-50 yard wedge shot instead of being smart laying up with an iron. I hit a great hybrid, it just went dead straight.

hence the reason I dont pull driver on shorter doglegs. if i hit it well but dont turn it or cut the corner Im through and in the woods. Besides for the distance I wont need it anyway so depending on tee placement, winds, etc...I might tee with 5w , 4h, or 3w if head winds or unless heavy wnds in face then driver but would be rare on such holes.

Its just too bad i can the perfect 5w for the given hole and then yet go and chunk a pw or gw for the approach 10 yrds..lol but such is the life of a mid-mid/high capper...lol

 

[CC Stryder]

Not 20 to 10, but I went from 13 to 8 by changing nothing but how I thought on the course and the way I navigated it. I credit the former to "Golf Is Not A Game of Perfect" by Bob Rotella and the latter to a friend of mine that used to play mini-tours giving me on course pointers and tips. So, no doubt in my mind a lot happens between the ears. I actually recommend that book to everyone I come across and often re-read it at the start of every season...

 

[alexped2393]

I found that improving my ball striking along with course management is the way to get rid of the most strokes. I was able to change my major mis-hit from a heavy fat to a thin so that helped a lot.

Also stopped swinging full beans at every club helped improve strike

 

[jhstew1]

I had not been playing much, but recently i have played more & I quickly realized that anything that is not a full swing, inside 110 yards or in the sand is a big struggle. So I am trying to be sure that any shots i have are full swings & if that means laying back to make sure so be it. I would rather hit an 8 iron from 155, than a 3/4 wedge from 80. My current course management is too give myself full swing yardages on every hole and honestly its not easy when playing with guys who expect or want you too just bomb driver every time.