is the word forgiveness misleading ?
- Admin
- #27
Of course. Then again, that isnt any different indoors or out. Our bodies adjust naturally. To make the reverse argument, you could say fitting with wind, is a complete waste, right? Elimination of variables is one of the easiest ways to see how a player delivers the club head to the ball.
No tools are perfect, but some people continue to dismiss them, without ever actually witnessing one.
I think there might some merit to the point of a larger club head being detrimental at some point and to certain players - even at different skill levels.
I have no doubt that a larger sweet spot is more forgiving. But I also believe a smaller club head helps some players improve their consistency.... in kind of an aim small, miss small way. No science to back this up, just an opinion.
I have no doubt that a larger sweet spot is more forgiving. But I also believe a smaller club head helps some players improve their consistency.... in kind of an aim small, miss small way. No science to back this up, just an opinion.
Last edited:
Forgiveness is almost a required buzzword if you are trying to sell golf clubs since only one player in 50 breaks 80, 98% of golfers need clubs that forgiving. My cavity backed irons let me get away with a lot of misshits that my blades wouldn’t. Each company has to differentiate themselves from everyone else and do it their own way. Obviously, not all are as successful with their choices. Just as one way doesn’t work perfectly for every swing.
DG_1234
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 6,211
- Reaction score
- 1,931
- Handicap
- 2
- Thread starter
- #30
I believe your definition (of forgiveness) is the majority one. Mine is different because I don't see the point and, or, benefit of "forgiveness" if the club's design inherently promotes mishit shots.
DG_1234
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 6,211
- Reaction score
- 1,931
- Handicap
- 2
- Thread starter
- #31
Is your cavity back model head shape-size similar to your muscle back iron or is the cavity back of significantly larger head size ?
I believe in the merits of perimeter weighting (cavity back) but think that when the head size becomes too large the club's design may become counterproductive.
greenOak
Well-known member
It's definitely an overused term imo. One thing that annoys me is equating forgiveness with launches higher.
The 5 iron from my forged blades are only a bit smaller than my cavity backed clubs. You tell me if it’s a significant difference.
You‘re not using the correct terminology. Forgiveness in clubs refers to what happens to your ball after you mis-hit it. How much speed, direction and spin was the ball able to maintain via the design and technology that is inside the club. What you are describing is simply personal preference that the club heads are too large.
DG_1234
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 6,211
- Reaction score
- 1,931
- Handicap
- 2
- Thread starter
- #36
What you have there is an old school tiny true blade iron. I guess 70's era ?
And is the cavity back from about 20 years ago ?
What is the brand/model name of those two irons ?
If it's not too much hassle, please post a photo of their backsides.
DG_1234
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2015
- Messages
- 6,211
- Reaction score
- 1,931
- Handicap
- 2
- Thread starter
- #37
I don't know that what I am describing is only my "personal preference". My guess is that if a dozen 18 handicap players were each given a set of relatively small head Ping irons and a set of Ping's largest head iron , and those players each played 5 rounds of golf with each set, that the shot making/scoring results would be about 50/50. That is, half the 18 handicap players get the best results from large heads, and the other half gets their best results from the small head iron model.
Yet the golf industry equipment company marketing suggests just about every 18 handicap player should be swinging the largest heads offered for sale.
ntanygd760
Well-known member
I always thought of it as % of distance loss on off center hits. Still need to square the face up to hit it straight.
I have never seen a golf ad that said high handicappers should be playing the largest heads.
Can you share one?
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 24,384
- Reaction score
- 25,928
- Handicap
- 17.2
I think the main problem with the fitting process is that people expect to go in and be told exactly what to hit and then they will go out and magically be a much better golfer. IMO fitting is a 2 way street. You need to know what you like in a golf head and then the fitter helps you get the shaft, weight, loft, and lie angle that fits your swing. They can certainly do it all for you, but like many have said hitting off a mat is different than being on the course and while you may smoke that iron off that mat, when you pull it out of your bag on a side hill lie in 3" rough you better feel comfortable with how it makes you feel trying to swing it. Feel is a huge part of golf so letting a fitter dictate 100% of the decisions in a fitting may end in disappointment with the process. When you go you need to know a little about what they are doing and a lot about what head shape you are interested in.
Knot Right
Well-known member
There is a world of difference between those two heads.
Offset - Weight distribution - Bounce angles - Sole radius
Also, that older blade had it's weight closer to the shaft with the longer hosel as many of the older forgings did, where the weight in the newer iron is more evenly distributed by the wider sole and maybe a slightly thicker toe area. (is that a Cleveland?)
I have always though the term "forgiveness" was a bit overrated when it comes to golf. To get decent results you still have to put a good swing on the ball, no matter what type of club you play. I have played everything from MB's to UGI's and never noticed that much of a difference.
i guess ymmv shouldn’t be overlooked
for me, at my grandaddy fitting we tried different clubs, and we went with the clubs that gave me the most consistent results. we tried demanding clubs and super forgiving, and landed somewhere in the middle.
for me, at my grandaddy fitting we tried different clubs, and we went with the clubs that gave me the most consistent results. we tried demanding clubs and super forgiving, and landed somewhere in the middle.
There is a tremendous difference between clubs in regards to the range of my ability to hit them. But it has less to do with the size of the club head and more with the design - specifically the vertical center of gravity (at least that's what I believe).
Regarding professional fittings... I have all the faith in the world of there being a best fit club and shaft for me, but very little faith that it will be determined by a professional service.
I agree with those who believe hitting from off a mat is a poor reflection of what will happen on the course - regardless of the lie. I simply swing differently inside from a mat than I do outside on the turf. I have years of video to support that. I know that's not normal and that for most, the process works well. But for some of us, it's a poor way to assess how well a club fits.
Regarding professional fittings... I have all the faith in the world of there being a best fit club and shaft for me, but very little faith that it will be determined by a professional service.
I agree with those who believe hitting from off a mat is a poor reflection of what will happen on the course - regardless of the lie. I simply swing differently inside from a mat than I do outside on the turf. I have years of video to support that. I know that's not normal and that for most, the process works well. But for some of us, it's a poor way to assess how well a club fits.
Acesteve
Well-known member
over-rated for me historically. The biggest issues in my game over a 30 year period and that of my 4-some are fat hits, pulls and slices. Making a club head slightly bigger or smaller just did not have a material impact. I'd say my avg round over my first 25 years was about a 93 and if anything the shaft in a club might have made the biggest difference.
Now jump to 2020 and I'm shooting around 80 most days and it is really 2 or 3 blow-ups that are costing me mid-70's. Had the best ball striking day ever 2 weeks out and on some poor shots noticed that my contact was all over the face. Suggested to me that I got more then I deserved on a couple of bad moves and that the forgiveness of my cross over players iron was helping me.
Now jump to 2020 and I'm shooting around 80 most days and it is really 2 or 3 blow-ups that are costing me mid-70's. Had the best ball striking day ever 2 weeks out and on some poor shots noticed that my contact was all over the face. Suggested to me that I got more then I deserved on a couple of bad moves and that the forgiveness of my cross over players iron was helping me.
I like slightly smaller driver heads. Deep faces in the 430cc range. Mainly because they spin less.
I play game impediment (improvement-autocorrect changed it to impediment and I thought it fitting) irons as I don’t play enough to consistently hit my players irons.
I’ll take all the help I can get right now.
As a positive it sounds like you (OP) are golfing again so that’s a plus.
I play game impediment (improvement-autocorrect changed it to impediment and I thought it fitting) irons as I don’t play enough to consistently hit my players irons.
I’ll take all the help I can get right now.
As a positive it sounds like you (OP) are golfing again so that’s a plus.
I watched a video today about forgiving clubs. The driver.... The 2016 Callaway Big Bertha Fusion. It was advertised as the most forgiving driver on the market. Did it sell? No. Why? because it wasn't as long as the Taylormade by about 10 yds, yet the ball went straight pretty much every time unless you really screwed up with club delivery. People want distance, not forgiveness with a driver. So club manufacturers say forgiveness but that's all secondary to distance. Callaway tried to give the average golfers what they needed and got punished for it.
Cleveland gave us the HB Turbos. Who wants to be seen with those in the bag? Most of us really could use the help they give, but we'd have to throw egos out the window since they go a step even beyond Super Game Improvement Irons. They're a full set of hybrids.
And putters.... get fit.
Cleveland gave us the HB Turbos. Who wants to be seen with those in the bag? Most of us really could use the help they give, but we'd have to throw egos out the window since they go a step even beyond Super Game Improvement Irons. They're a full set of hybrids.
And putters.... get fit.
My ego was thrown out the window. My HL4's ain't going anywhere, because since they came into my life, my scores went down.