Is your golf swing a Push or Pull, or have you considered the difference.

[Arlo]

Babe Ruth in baseball and Ben Hogan in golf epitomized Pullers creating force by torso rotation, with bent trail arm at impact for more “batt mass”, and no wrist roll over resulting in larger Area of Impact(AOI).



https://clients.chrisoleary.com/Golf/The-Triple-Pendulum-and-Ben-Hogans-True-Secret



Pushers in effect are straightening the trail arm at impact, using wrists as power hinges.

As trail arm straightens, the torso decelerates, just as a boxer throwing a punch.
Nelly Korda would be a Pusher by this definition... right arm straightening, though hand strength and upper arm mass are lacking.





Strength in the hands, weight in trail upper arm combined with timing of the clubface closure(wrist rollover) is necessary for Pushers.

and Justin Thomas right arm straightening, also. Interesting Nelly and Justin both go vertical when they straighten the trail arm for release. Rory and Rahm also right arm straightening with Colin Morikawa and DJ pullers, right arm bent at impact.


Pullers have a bent trail elbow , with trail hip acting as a fulcrum to the arm levers.

And wrists acting as free hinges, allow the kinematic sequence to unfold to create clubhead speed.

As long as palm of the trail hand faces the sky from top of BS, the torso will keep turning to position

the trail hip and trail elbow aligned with inside quadrant of the ball at impact, "SIDE ON".

The clubface sweeps under the inside quadrant (large AOI) as there is no conscious release of the hands

as clubface slides under the ball.



Pros and Cons of each method?

 

[razaar]

I am a methodical pusher - shut at the top. As are most of the players on the world's golf tours today. We are methodically closing the clubface during the backswing aiming for clubface rotation of 60 to 70 degrees open at the top of the backswing with locked wrists. We do it this way on the basis that the faster the angle of aim of the clubface is changing as it approaches and swings through the ball, then the more any small error in timing is likely to bring the clubface through impact off-line to the target, causing a crooked shot.
This method slows the rate of rotation of the clubhead through impact, making it mechanically easier to get it consistently square to the target as we hit the ball. We still have to roll the clubface 60/70 degrees but we are as humanly possible to a mechanical ball striking machine which has its clubface square to the swing plane throughout.
In doing it this way we give away any mechanical advantage of the fast rotating clubface through impact. Our whole wrist movements feels and is weaker and restricted. We balance this with more body rotation through impact, which gives the swing it's pushing appearance.

 

[zoveracker]

I personally say after putting a question like that in a post title(which until now I have never thought about) you should be exiled. Guaranteed just caused me some issues next time I am at the range. Haha

 

[BigMac]

I personally say after putting a question like that in a post title(which until now I have never thought about) you should be exiled. Guaranteed just caused me some issues next time I am at the range. Haha

It's like asking "Do you inhale or exhale when you swing?" Guaranteed to get in your head.

 

[Turtlerancher]

I personally say after putting a question like that in a post title(which until now I have never thought about) you should be exiled. Guaranteed just caused me some issues next time I am at the range. Haha

Remind me to have this discussion with you in Vegas.

 

[zoveracker]

Remind me to have this discussion with you in Vegas.

I can take any trash talk you have but golfswing talk would be crossing a line!! Haha

 

[blugold]

shoulders on the way back. Hips on the way through.

That's all I think about. I am not too worried about if it's a push or a pull.

 

[nicklongdrive]

I'm definitively a "puller"; my forum photo is a video frame just right before impact as evidence.

 

[Luchnia]

I don't think about being a puller or a pusher. I simply allow it to happen while I focus on my target area. Over analyzing does not make a golf swing work well for me. I used to do that but found it detrimental to my golf game and was really bad for my score card.

My focus has to stay on the target to get the job done. In simple words, setup to ball, hit ball to target, move to next location and repeat.

 

[Arlo]

I am a methodical pusher - shut at the top. As are most of the players on the world's golf tours today. We are methodically closing the clubface during the backswing aiming for clubface rotation of 60 to 70 degrees open at the top of the backswing with locked wrists. We do it this way on the basis that the faster the angle of aim of the clubface is changing as it approaches and swings through the ball, then the more any small error in timing is likely to bring the clubface through impact off-line to the target, causing a crooked shot.
This method slows the rate of rotation of the clubhead through impact, making it mechanically easier to get it consistently square to the target as we hit the ball. We still have to roll the clubface 60/70 degrees but we are as humanly possible to a mechanical ball striking machine which has its clubface square to the swing plane throughout.
In doing it this way we give away any mechanical advantage of the fast rotating clubface through impact. Our whole wrist movements feels and is weaker and restricted. We balance this with more body rotation through impact, which gives the swing it's pushing appearance.

Suggest that , trail arm (lever) Pushing or trail arm straightening, is key intent to subconsciously preprogram the entire movement for impact lasting 5/10,000 second.
Just as Pulling from top of BS is an intent, as in a tug o war.

 

[Arlo]

I don't think about being a puller or a pusher. I simply allow it to happen while I focus on my target area. Over analyzing does not make a golf swing work well for me. I used to do that but found it detrimental to my golf game and was really bad for my score card.

My focus has to stay on the target to get the job done. In simple words, setup to ball, hit ball to target, move to next location and repeat.

Certain words create a preprogram in our subconscious. The word hit creates strong arm straightening intent, as in punch.
The word, Sweep, at top of BS, creates the pull intent, as if a broom with brush behind us.
.

 

[skujan]

Puller because the heel of my trail (right) hand comes off the grip due to a range of motion limitation.

 

[Luchnia]

Certain words create a preprogram in our subconscious. The word hit creates strong arm straightening intent, as in punch.
The word, Sweep, at top of BS, creates the pull intent, as if a broom with brush behind us.
.

I agree to a point, however it depends on how the words used are comprehended and defined in their context by the individual. I more generalize the word hit as I grew up hitting stuff. Certainly others may have a different concept of the hit. You take words like strike, impact, and hit when talking about the golf ball is usually understood in the sense of using a golf club while swinging and not hitting with the fist as in a punch because of using an object to hit with.

Since the action of striking the golf ball with a swinging club has hardly any relation to punching anything I don't think of it in such a way, but maybe some do. If the word hit causes someone to think of it in the manner of a punch, then simply use a different word such as strike. Whatever works for the understanding and keep the thought complexity out of it for the average golfer will more than likely prove more valuable.

My guess is in most cases average golfers do not think of hitting the golf ball as a punch unless maybe in the case of punching the ball out of an area from under a tree and even then they are probably not paying attention to how the arm is working as much as what they are attempting to do with the golf ball when the club "strikes" it.

Maybe the perfect word would sit nicely between sweep and hit, but what would that word be?

 

[Lane]

Babe Ruth in baseball and Ben Hogan in golf epitomized Pullers creating force by torso rotation, with bent trail arm at impact for more “batt mass”, and no wrist roll over resulting in larger Area of Impact(AOI).



https://clients.chrisoleary.com/Golf/The-Triple-Pendulum-and-Ben-Hogans-True-Secret



Pushers in effect are straightening the trail arm at impact, using wrists as power hinges.

As trail arm straightens, the torso decelerates, just as a boxer throwing a punch.

Strength in the hands, weight in trail upper arm combined with timing of the clubface closure(wrist rollover) is necessary for Pushers.



Pullers have a bent trail elbow , with trail hip acting as a fulcrum to the arm levers.

And wrists acting as free hinges, allow the kinematic sequence to unfold to create clubhead speed.

As long as palm of the trail hand faces the sky from top of BS, the torso will keep turning to position

the trail hip and trail elbow aligned with inside quadrant of the ball at impact, "SIDE ON".

The clubface sweeps under the inside quadrant (large AOI) as there is no conscious release of the hands

as clubface slides under the ball.



Pros and Cons of each method?

Exactly- muscles can ONLY “ pull “ ! They are not capable of “ pushing “ !

 

[Arlo]

I agree to a point, however it depends on how the words used are comprehended and defined in their context by the individual. I more generalize the word hit as I grew up hitting stuff. Certainly others may have a different concept of the hit. You take words like strike, impact, and hit when talking about the golf ball is usually understood in the sense of using a golf club while swinging and not hitting with the fist as in a punch because of using an object to hit with.

Since the action of striking the golf ball with a swinging club has hardly any relation to punching anything I don't think of it in such a way, but maybe some do. If the word hit causes someone to think of it in the manner of a punch, then simply use a different word such as strike. Whatever works for the understanding and keep the thought complexity out of it for the average golfer will more than likely prove more valuable.

My guess is in most cases average golfers do not think of hitting the golf ball as a punch unless maybe in the case of punching the ball out of an area from under a tree and even then they are probably not paying attention to how the arm is working as much as what they are attempting to do with the golf ball when the club "strikes" it.

Maybe the perfect word would sit nicely between sweep and hit, but what would that word be?

Suggest there is no universal perfect word, only a perfect intent. My instructor always asked himself
what are we really trying to accomplish.

 

[Luchnia]

Exactly- muscles can ONLY “ pull “ ! They are not capable of “ pushing “ !

Yep, according to science muscles can only contract and they release, yet this contraction of various muscles allow the the body to push an object or swing an object like a golf club. How cool is that.

 

[Luchnia]

Suggest there is no universal perfect word, only a perfect intent. My instructor always asked himself
what are we really trying to accomplish.

I think this is on the money. The perfect intent and I think that evades a lot of golfers out there. Intents are all over the place. I think it is simply what are we trying to accomplish and what method do we use to get there. I remember an old saying that goes like this, "Where are we going and how are we going to get there?"

 

[Snickerdog]

I'm just gonna sit here and watch Nellie's swing, just so perfect. Smooth and effortless power.

 

[Arlo]

I think this is on the money. The perfect intent and I think that evades a lot of golfers out there. Intents are all over the place. I think it is simply what are we trying to accomplish and what method do we use to get there. I remember an old saying that goes like this, "Where are we going and how are we going to get there?"

Care in what we ask for. Intents must fulfil laws of nature:
"My approach took the following format; The human mechanical machine is an exceedingly complex multi-lever assembly where the bones provide the rigid structures that act as levers that move about joints. There are 206 bones in the human body, the majority of which are involved, in some way or other, in both the upswing and the downswing. And every movement that the golfer makes must occur within a precise sequence of individual mechanical events, the satisfaction of the fundamental needs of each such event is totally dependent upon the function of the bone movement that preceded it. All bone movement is powered by muscle contraction. Muscles can PULL but they cannot PUSH, it is well to remember that! Invariably muscles act in groups, seldom individually, if ever. Muscle contractions are controlled from within the very deep subconscious brain, invariably far removed from conscious controls. The subconscious brain receives messages from the conscious brain relating to an intended motion or sequence of motions (such as the golf swing). The subconscious receives an image which it proceeds to interpret and then to pre-program into a sequential flow of motion. Be careful what you ask for, you may not like what you get! Since we are dealing with levers (the bones) every movement made is governed by The Laws of Levers and Leverage. Since we create motion, every movement is the total servant of Newton's Laws of Motion. There are no exceptions, you obey the Laws and the Rules or you pay accordingly.

 

[Luchnia]

I'm just gonna sit here and watch Nellie's swing, just so perfect. Smooth and effortless power.

I just wished I could find the "effortless" part!

 

[Arlo]

It's like asking "Do you inhale or exhale when you swing?" Guaranteed to get in your head.

Very Zen to focus on breath. Frees the mind of all the biomechanical mumbo jumbo.

 

[Lane]

Exactly- muscles can ONLY “ pull “ ! They are not capable of “ pushing “ !

Their are three words that are used in golf instruction that I believe are extremely detrimental to a players progress and success.
GRIP — the grip attached to the butt of the shaft is to be—-HELD.

HIT- one of two of the absolutey worst words an instructor should ever use while teaching - a golf ball is to be “ swept “ off the ground / or tee by the clubface as it is being PULLED around your torso on an inclined arc.

RELEASE — the second of the two worst and most detrimental word and most horrible of them all . That a human can “ release “ ( gotta include ( * hit & throw ) with their HANDS and wrist and time that to square the face at impact is absolutely ludicrous, ridiculous and impossible ! Against all logic. And you can easily see millions of high handicappers doing just that .

Consider this — the golf swing is performed and powered by and with levers. The rotation ( turning ) of the torso is one of those “ levers “ AND - BTW , obviously the most powerful lever . We also have another lever - the formation of the lever between our arms and shaft / lever which is another part of the process .
Most everyone I see nearly always rotates / turns their torso during their BS . Most can easily form a lever with their arms and shaft .
SO—- since the golf swing is all about LEVERAGE I ask this question below —-

If the shaft of a player becomes inline with his left arm at any point during their DS by attempting to apply pressure or to provide power ( hit / throw /release ) with their DOMINANT HANDS ( particularly the DOMINANT RIGHT which should ONLY CONTROL THE ENTIRE PROCESS ) — has that leverage been expended / dissipated / eliminated and is no longer available where it should be ?
Again - I attached a great pic which illustrates my thoughts —.
Just my thoughts .

 

[Arlo]

Yep, according to science muscles can only contract and they release, yet this contraction of various muscles allow the the body to push an object or swing an object like a golf club. How cool is that.

"You create a conscious intention on the conscious levels of the brain where you do have some control over input. But that's really about where all conscious controls must end. Your selected intention is passed into the far deeper levels of the subconscious brain where it's interpreted. The subconscious brain then draws up an entire program of individual mechanical events that must be executed with extraordinary precision in a precise sequence of coordinated motion. It's really all a subconscious reaction chain triggered by a conscious intention. You cannot change any link in that chain without altering the primary trigger that initiated it"

 

[Arlo]

Arguably Tiger's golf swing was the best ever , golf swing in 2000. Turn, slide, then unwind.
Right elbow bent to impact...pulling the lever around his spine at 90 degrees, so pure.


Until the gurus' got him to change to Pushing, so upright, right arm straightening, torso decelerating to post up on straight left leg, taking out his knee then his back. Thanks for the memories, Tiger.

 

[razaar]

Arguably Tiger's golf swing was the best ever , golf swing in 2000. Turn, slide, then unwind.
Right elbow bent to impact...pulling the lever around his spine at 90 degrees, so pure.


Until the gurus' got him to change to Pushing, so upright, right arm straightening, torso decelerating to post up on straight left leg, taking out his knee then his back. Thanks for the memories, Tiger.

He is doing both pulling with his left side and pushing with his right. That is how we rotate. If one is missing it becomes a lateral movement and a body stall. If you are a puller you have a body stall through impact coupled with an early release. Pushers pull and push similar to a revolving door. If you have been told to post on the left side and rotate you are a puller with a lateral movement through impact relying on the shoulders and arms to power the swing. Conversely the pusher is using the ground and body rotation to pull the shoulders, arms and club down and around.
The tag pusher is only about appearance with the left shoulder internally rotated through impact with the tailbone rotated away from the target and the right shoulder and arm driving under and forward as a solid unit.