Long Par 4's and Bad Drives

[TheDoctor]

I wonder if there's something to this. Maybe my brain is just too wrapped up in "birdie/par/bogey" mentality but I can't see myself playing for bogey prior to even hitting my tee shot. I suppose I end up playing a reactionary game as opposed to dictating the game.
Something to think about for sure for me.

If you only look at the scorecard without taking into consideration your handicap, then yes, you are playing for a bogey, BUT, when you add in the stroke for your handicap, a par 4 then becomes a par 5 and you are looking at a par

This, to me, is the point of your handicap being what it is - to take into account your ability / expected score / however you want to describe it, so use it to your advantage, especially in competition scenarios if your opponent has to give you shots.....work out where you get them and make the most of them

 

[BIGBALL]

I most often go into long par 4's like this ( I only run into them maybe once a round, if that - I play from the whites ) with a par 5 mentality. If it is open off the tee & I hit a really good drive, and can get there in 2 if there isn't much trouble, I'll go for it. If not, I will hit a club I know I can put in the fairway, and my next shot I will try and lay up to yardage that brings my best scoring club ( LW ) into play and try & make par that way. If I end up with a bogey on a hole like that, I consider it a win.

 

[Smallville]

I always try to get as close as I can on every shot unless there is trouble I want to avoid.

 

[Smithfaced]

Unless I'm feeling very confident with driver I usually play a 450+ par 4 as a par 5 (in my mind not on the card). Carding a 5 on that long of a par 4 is a win for me every time.

 

[evand23mc]

I came to the realization late in the season last year that I need to play to my strengths. Mind you, it has taken me 20+ years to realize this. There are certain areas of my game that I am just not that great at, i.e. 20 yards to 90 yards out. No reason to force myself into a closer shot if it is tougher for me to achieve a positive outcome. I would try to lay up to 100-120 and hit a PW or 9 iron into the green. If I hit a good shot and make a putt, I can par. If I hit an okay shot I can 2 putt and still stop the bleeding at a bogey.

 

[gatoreric]

I agree with a few guys in regards to the tees. But I see your point if the next tees are that far up. Kinda unusual to have a lot of 450+ par 4's on one course. But every course is different. As far as playing it. I would say drive the ball and see what happens from there. If it is iffy drive play it like a par 5, if you get one solid and have 200 in. Then I would go for it depending on hazzards and difficulty of the green you are hitting into. I would assume a par 4 of that length wouldn't get too crazy with water, sand, or tiny greens. So a 5W or 3H are good options into the green. I hit my fairway woods fairly decent. So it would depend on your game. I don't mind playing for bogey after the results of my drive. I don't like settling for bogey in my mind on the tee box. Because, for me, if I am mentally settling for bogey on the tee, then the likelyhood of me turning that into a double bogey increases. I mean by laying up you are pretty much saying you have to hit the green with your third. No margin for error on an iffy wedge. Just my opinion, Good Luck.

 

[IceyShanks]

I'm not playing for bogey from the tee box, but if my tee shot puts me in a bad spot, I'm playing for bogey from there for sure.

 

[impactswing]

450 yard hole, if you have decent distance you are at least 250 on a good shot, if you drive 275 or 300, you are well inside the 200 all the time.

So if you visualize the best time you played that hole and think tempo, you don't have to hit a 300 yard hole to score, you should start to do well on the toughest holes.

Now if you have a gale force wind in your face that day, you know you can't even reach it in two, well then you might think about 3/4 stingers and choke downs and stuff.

Every tee you visualize your best tee shot ever on that hole and think SWING EASY, IMPACT HARD due to a full shoulder turn and hitting the ball squarely with good tempo.

Longer holes become tough when you press to hit a driver 20 yards past your normal distances.

Can you get near a hole at 200 yards, yeah sure, maybe not stiff, but on the green or close enough to it to get up and down.

So now how bad do you have to really hit a shot to be only 200 yards out? Pretty bad if you usually drive it 275 or 300.

Now if you are not scratch and can't hit the ball 250 consistently (the USGA definition of scratch golfer is hitting a driver consistently 250 at SEA LEVEL), then you are on the wrong tees, move up a set of tees so the long par 4's are 425 or 400.

If you hit 300 yard drives your wedge is 150, so you look at 450 yards as no big deal, decent drive and wedge, YAWN.

Guys struggling with 450 yard holes with todays technology are either not swinging fast enough in swing speed to be playing that distance, or their ball striking is way off.

I'm 55, I play at sea level in SFL with sponge fairways, yesterday I was inside the 50 yard marker on 4 of the shorter par 4's that played down wind, they are 360 yards, so with wind and a little roll out I was 300 yards consistently, and I do not hit the ball 300 yards. Maybe 260 or so in the air, with roll out to 275 if I take a full cut, which I rarely do.

So a little wind and 275 becomes 300.

The longest par 4's a senior plays today are 425 range, with 400 usually the beasts.

Longer tees you have 450 par 4's and you better be close to 275 in tee shots to play them since 450 yard par 4's are usually only a couple holes in 6800 yard tracks, you get over 7000 yards you start to see 475 yard par 4's.

TEE IT FORWARD bro, if you cannot consistently hit a golf ball in the 275 yard range, that is the distance you need to play 6700/6800 yards well according to the PGA.

If you can swing 105 to 110 mph you have 275 with rollout in your bag, you can play 6800 yards. If you have 115mph you have 300 with rollout in your bag and can play monster tips.

If you swing 90/95 mph you should be on 6200/6400 yard tees.

If you overswing from your normal tempo on longer holes, your problem is over swinging, swing easy and impact hard, being inside the 200 marker from 450 is not a big deal if you have swing speed.

 

[bu11dog]

I came to the realization late in the season last year that I need to play to my strengths. Mind you, it has taken me 20+ years to realize this. There are certain areas of my game that I am just not that great at, i.e. 20 yards to 90 yards out. No reason to force myself into a closer shot if it is tougher for me to achieve a positive outcome. I would try to lay up to 100-120 and hit a PW or 9 iron into the green. If I hit a good shot and make a putt, I can par. If I hit an okay shot I can 2 putt and still stop the bleeding at a bogey.

I just responded in the "hero shot" thread and think that my response there applies here too. I used the analogy of playing the odds like in poker. Some of it is situation dependent. There are times when going for it is the right decision, but often playing to your strengths (or playing to the odds) is the best call.

As a side note: one thing that took me a long time to recognize is that course management isn't always about playing to the fat part of the green.

 

[TheDoctor]

I'm not playing for bogey from the tee box, but if my tee shot puts me in a bad spot, I'm playing for bogey from there for sure.

You show a handicap of 11 Icey, so even if the hole is stroke index 1 which means you get a stroke on that hole, you are still not considering a bogey from the tee which equates to a nett par? I am not having a go at you or anyone else who says they can't contemplate a bogey but when your handicap gives you a shot on a hole I would be inclined to make the most of it and plan the hole accordingly


Example scenario for those that can't contemplate a bogey when stood on the tee.....

The hole is 470yd par 4 stroke index 1, with your typical second shot being a forced carry of 200-220yds over water to a green which is protected by said water and other hazards - would you still go for the green and risk putting it in the water or lay-up and leave yourself with a wedge and a possible single putt for a par (nett birdie) or a bogey (nett par)

Personally, I would be laying up and taking the wedge option, but that is just me

I am wondering if the thread that Tadashi started about playing the hero shot has partly been inspired by this thread?

 

[Awkward silence]

I feel like if I am playing tees where I am consistantly 200 yards out on par 4s then I need to move up becasue that doesnt sound like a fun day at all.

 

[dhartmann34]

If I'm looking at 200+ out, I have to take a look at a couple things. First, what kind of trouble is around the green. If there's water, OB, or anything that could cause me extra strokes, I'm laying up to 50-75 yards. If there's really nothing big in terms of trouble, I'm just taking a nice smooth swing and hoping to hit a good shot. If I catch it well, I hope it gets there. If it comes up short, then at least I'm close with a pitch shot to try and make par.

 

[Hawk]

Anything that long is a bogey hole for me. If I par it I feel like I did something really good.

 

[Paladin]

I feel like if I am playing tees where I am consistantly 200 yards out on par 4s then I need to move up becasue that doesnt like a fun day at all.

No, it's one specific hole, the 9th, at my home course, that's a 450 yard par-4 that, as I was tracking some of my rounds, I realized was getting more doubles-plus. When I play 9, it's the hole that is most likely to stick in my craw on the ride home. And when it's the hole heading into the turn, it's often a sign of things to come. It's easily and far & away the longest par-4 on the course. But I kinda felt like I can end up in a similar mindset if I get a bad drive of occasionally being in that "long approach" versus "punch-out and get bogey" scenario.

 

[IceyShanks]

I always play for par. This way if I hit a bad shot or 2 I know I can scramble and make a bogey and keep away from the big numbers. If I hit a few good shots, it brings birdie into play but I dont push my limits and try to make something happen that maybe 1 out of 10 times will happen. That's how mistakes compound each other and end up with the nice snowman.

I quoted Ricky here because it's my thoughts exactly, it's almost like once I hit a bad shot then I'm playing above the par.

You show a handicap of 11 Icey, so even if the hole is stroke index 1 which means you get a stroke on that hole, you are still not considering a bogey from the tee which equates to a nett par? I am not having a go at you or anyone else who says they can't contemplate a bogey but when your handicap gives you a shot on a hole I would be inclined to make the most of it and plan the hole accordingly


Example scenario for those that can't contemplate a bogey when stood on the tee.....

The hole is 470yd par 4 stroke index 1, with your typical second shot being a forced carry of 200-220yds over water to a green which is protected by said water and other hazards - would you still go for the green and risk putting it in the water or lay-up and leave yourself with a wedge and a possible single putt for a par (nett birdie) or a bogey (nett par)

Personally, I would be laying up and taking the wedge option, but that is just me

I am wondering if the thread that Tadashi started about playing the hero shot has partly been inspired by this thread?

For me if I hit a good drive in the fairway on that long of a par 4 I'm still probably going for the green with like a 3 hybrid. If I'm out of the fairway with no shot at the green, then maybe I'm looking at a layup.

 

[JonD]

Definitely a bogie hole for me as well. Club off the tee depends on how I'm hitting my driver that day. In reality, if there's trouble or a tight fairway, I SHOULD be pulling less than driver regardless of the distance and playing for bogie.

At my handicap, basically anything under a bogie average is a good day. So bogie is my goal on holes that aren't 'easy'. If I can limit my mistakes to a double here and there, some pars and maybe (gasp) a birdie somewhere, I'm in the high 80s or right at 90. That's about where I ended last year. Goal this year is to further limit mistakes and start stealing a few more strokes a round.

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

When I play a longer par 4, it really depends on how much trouble is in play first off the tee and then on the approach. I will play driver off the tee as long as it isn't too narrow or there isn't some nasty crossing hazard at 220-250 yards - my goal is to get it out there 240 or 250 so that I can get within range for a hybrid shot. On the second, if there is no real trouble around the green I will try to get there, but if there is a lot I may decide to layup to a yardage and play to get on in 3. If I screw up a tee ball on a hole like this, I will always revert to trying to get on in 3, because I have no shot at getting to the green on a 450 yd hole unless my tee ball goes at least 220 yards.

I don't like playing for bogey, but in some situations it really saves you from taking something much worse.

 

[rollin]

Course yardages can sometimes be deceiving due to even just a couple of oddball holes on a given course and the amount of P5's and P3's. So even if one is playing the correct tees may still be faced with an unusual hole here and there. I play the middle (whites) at my locals all around 6400. I am long enough to play them from the blues at 7000 and have on very rare occasion but I don't 99.9% of the time because I am not consistent enough. But if I was on a course that was around 6400 from the blues (similar to my whites) than I would play the blues on that course. That could be one reason to leave you in a rare situation for a real long p4 without technically being at the wrong tees since the course overall is not too long for the individual.

Besides, Its ok that there will be holes that require a longer and well played driver shot. You do need some diversity. And It doesn't have to mean you are at the wrong tees. And even a bunch of regular holes that are not so long may still require one of your better driver hits. But regardless of the hole length, when we hit an errant shot or mishit a shorty we can often be left with an approach that is simply not manageable for the individual even if the hole is not so long. A bad drive is a bad drive. It happens and is going to leave you in less than manageable situations. So I just take the medicine and move on with the best "manageable" choices I can make. If that means now playing for bogey than so be it. Worse thing I believe I can do is fix a bad situation with another bad situation. Bogey is better than triple or worse.

 

[impactswing]

450 par 4's start to get 'long' for anyone but scratch level players or better, they usually are on courses with 6700 or more yards.

The definition the USGA gives for 'scratch' is ability to hit a driver on average 250 yards or more at sea level and to be able to reach a 475 yard hole in two shots at sea level.

450 is long at sea level, I play at sea level everyday near the ocean in SFL. Once you start to look at courses at seal level as the PGA does with Tee It Forward, you see average driver needs to be 275 yards to play 6700 yards. So 275+ driver a 450 yard par 4 is not big deal.

How many guys playing 6700 yards have a solid 275 in their bag? Not many, or they would all be plus golfers with a little practice, 275 is 105+ MPH swing speed or Senior Tour level.

Unless the course is a very oddball design, you will not see 450 yard par 4's on a 6400 yard track. You start to see a couple on 7000 yards usually, or one on a 6700 yard track.

So if you have trouble with a 450 yard hole, why? Are you swinging 95 mph which is a lot of s/s for most golfers or under that, then 450 is far.

Once you are in the 105mph s/s range or 275 yds average off the tee with roll out, 450 is no big deal.

The OP is probably 95mph or less s/s or if they are higher, then they have ball striking issues.

6400 tees the answer, and he will never see a 450 yard par 4 on a 6400 yard track unless something was designed very strange.

450 yards was a short par 5 30 years ago, so 6700 yard tracks from over 30 years ago, had 360 to 425 par 4's. Now you see 450 and even 500 yard par 4's on super long modern tracks.

There's 1 450 yd par 4 on a solid 6800 yard track I play all the time. Thats the tips and it's rated 74 on a par 71 course.

The rest are usually under 425 yards.

450 yard holes are LONG, and shouldn't be on most tracks unless you are in the 7000 yard range, then you see lots of them.

 

[PirateJim]

Good question. For me, a 450+ par four is out of reach in two except with two really good shots so a lay up is sort of a given. And yes, I would be playing closer tees if possible. To the original question, one of the best bits of advice I ever heard was; "when in trouble after the first shot, your priority is to make sure your third shot is NOT from trouble."

I'm not sure what level the OP plays at, but unless you're mighty competent trying to shape a fairway wood or long iron around a tree to land on a green is a mighty dangerous shot, especially from the rough (IMHO). You MIGHT land on the green. There's also a good chance you could end up in a bunker, or if the shot doesn't bend much it could end up in the woods or somebody's back yard, or if the rough you're in binds up the club you could end up much closer to that tree with even fewer options. Since the subject is eliminating 7s and 8s on the card I suspect these type of scenarios are playing out all too often. It's easier to shrug you shoulders and accept that you've hit a sub-optimal drive, then take a mid iron and pop the ball out into the fairway where you can wedge into the green. Make a good wedge shot, you still have a putt at par.

 

[thewitt]

One of the courses I have been playing recently has a 477 yard par 4. Up hill, dogleg right, tough green, 280 yards to clear the dogleg...

The members play this as a virtual par 5, happy to walk away with a bogey.

If I nut a drive, I can clear the dogleg, which leaves me 200 up hill to the green. Fortunately there are no sand bunkers protecting the green, but it's contours and surrounding "grass bunkers" are such that a miss on the wrong side virtually prevents an up and down, and a 3 putt is almost guaranteed if you end up in the wrong place on the green.

The majority of the guys I typically play with drive the ball 230 with roll..... Not a chance to reach this hole. Ever.... From the next tee box up, it's 443 again all up hill, so on in 2 is really a dream for these guys.

Too severe? Add bunkers and make it a par 5? Ok to have a hole like this?

I asked the golf pro and he said the membership loves the challenge of that hole, but he also admitted birdies are virtually unheard of...

This is only the number two index hole on the course, the first being captured by another par 4 with water, elevated green, heavy bunkering and multi tiered green.

Last round there I was the only one in the group with even a chance to reach in 2, and everyone was a single digit handicap. It struck me as a little severe, though they were all cheering for me to get on "the beast" in 2. I missed right, down in a deep grass bunker, flopped onto the middle of the green and missed the par putt...

In contrast I reached three of the four, 500+ yard par 5s in 2 and birdied two of them.

 

[TheDoctor]

Unless the course is a very oddball design, you will not see 450 yard par 4's on a 6400 yard track. You start to see a couple on 7000 yards usually, or one on a 6700 yard track.

450 yard holes are LONG, and shouldn't be on most tracks unless you are in the 7000 yard range, then you see lots of them.

One of the courses I have played around here has two par 4's in the area of 450yds and is only just over 6,400 yards so that is contradictory to your statement above as the course is certainly not an 'oddball' design, it also has a couple of 200yd+ par 3's

Link to scorecard HERE

 

[PirateJim]

.......

Last round there I was the only one in the group with even a chance to reach in 2, and everyone was a single digit handicap. It struck me as a little severe, though they were all cheering for me to get on "the beast" in 2. I missed right, down in a deep grass bunker, flopped onto the middle of the green and missed the par putt...

I think this is an important point. Those guys aren't single digit handicappers because they boom their drives 300+. They are single digit because they have learned to play smart and to their personal strengths. I would bet they all have a real solid short game though, so they still have a decent chance at par even though they don't even try to get on the green in two. And it's the number 2 handicap hole, so they probably aren't expected to get a 4 on that hole anyway! If the person playing that hole has a 21 handicap, they should get 2 strokes there, so even a 6 is still not unexpected really.

Golf is less frustrating if you play to beat your handicap rather trying to beat par.

 

[TheDoctor]

I think this is an important point. Those guys aren't single digit handicappers because they boom their drives 300+. They are single digit because they have learned to play smart and to their personal strengths. I would bet they all have a real solid short game though, so they still have a decent chance at par even though they don't even try to get on the green in two. And it's the number 2 handicap hole, so they probably aren't expected to get a 4 on that hole anyway! If the person playing that hole has a 21 handicap, they should get 2 strokes there, so even a 6 is still not unexpected really.

Golf is less frustrating if you play to beat your handicap rather trying to beat par.

Exactly my point I made earlier in the thread - play to your handicap and take the bonuses when you have a chance