Yes, but sometimes it's words that get those fists, feet, elbows, and knees going.
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Yes, but sometimes it's words that get those fists, feet, elbows, and knees going.
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... and it's the fists, feet, elbows, and knees constitute battery which is a crime. Taunting is not, at least to my knowledge.
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Heck, if you get someone dumb enough with a hot enough head, all you'd need to do is glance their way and shake your head in disgust and they'll do you the favor and start it.
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all im getting at (youd have to consider our whole recent conversation began)
You said that initiating a fight is always wrong. But yet you also say you would entice someone to make the first move.
Well, I think most would agree that is also just as wrong.
I don't think your seeing how that could be considered one in the same thing. If you are to talk of what is right or wrong , your statement is contradicting. Not sure how else to explain it.
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It's sorta like in Top Gun. They were given the order, "Do not fire until fired upon!" So, they couldn't fire at the enemy until they were fired upon, but they could still taunt them.
See, I knew I could spin a movie in there somehow.
Just seeing this thread...
Sorry, that's a whole bunch of misguided ego driven BS. Obviously, ymmv.
It's literally juvenile behavior, both the actions and intimated emotion behind them.
I kept reading waiting for the punchline. I didn't read the rest of the thread, was this a joke?
Sorry, that's a whole bunch of misguided ego driven BS. Obviously, ymmv.
It's literally juvenile behavior, both the actions and intimated emotion behind them.
I kept reading waiting for the punchline. I didn't read the rest of the thread, was this a joke?
Taunting can be considered assault if the individual feels in imminent threat of bodily harm.
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That's why you make it clear that you're only there to protect yourself if they're feelin' frisky.
Fortunately I haven't had any kind of altercations on the golf course (except maybe with some briars on occasion)...though one of the municipal's in my area had an incident where one golfer bit the finger off of another. Talk about giving someone the finger...
Atxpkrgolf
Active member
Gonna reply and then read the replies. First and foremost, don't ever get into an altercation around your kids. EVER. Dude could pull a gun and shoot your kid instead of you. Second, you aren't defending yourself. Defending yourself is when someone attacks you physically, not a finger. Be a better man. Ok, now that I said that, go back and take kids on different holes instead of waiting might have been the prudent move.
As for the debate about what is assault and what is not, I cannot speak for other states nor municipalities, but at least in NY (where I was a police officer) a physical injury must be incurred to elicit a charge of assault.
Words or threats may amount to harassment, aggravated harassment, threatening movements usually with an object in hand, may amount to menacing. But words or movements absent of injury or substantial physical pain would never amount to assault.
Assault is determined by the intent to cause physical injury and thereby causes physical injury. Or through depraved indifference for human life when a person acts in a reckless manner resulting in physical injury to another.
Threatening words may help to form an affirmative defense if an altercation were to arise but words alone do not cause physical harm nor do they alleviate responsibility for subsequent intent or recklessness.
Words or threats may amount to harassment, aggravated harassment, threatening movements usually with an object in hand, may amount to menacing. But words or movements absent of injury or substantial physical pain would never amount to assault.
Assault is determined by the intent to cause physical injury and thereby causes physical injury. Or through depraved indifference for human life when a person acts in a reckless manner resulting in physical injury to another.
Threatening words may help to form an affirmative defense if an altercation were to arise but words alone do not cause physical harm nor do they alleviate responsibility for subsequent intent or recklessness.
Difference between "assault" in criminal and civil law contexts. That may be the root of the debate.
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Sounds like battery to me, but that wouldn't be the first thing NY was off the mark on.
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Wow, just wow. First you demean the NJ education system and now you question the NY criminal statutes. It's a real good thing you are here to correct all the ills in society.
As an aside, both definitions are considered assault depending on the criminal statutes of the jurisdiction. From the Legal Institution Institute I quote the definition of assault:
Assault
Definition
The definition of assault varies by jurisdiction, but generally falls into one of these categories:
1. Intentionally putting another person in reasonable apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Intent to cause physical injury is not required, and physical injury does not need to result. So defined in tort law and the criminal statutes of some states.
2. With the intent to cause physical injury, making another person reasonably apprehend an imminent harmful or offensive contact. Essentially, an attempted battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states.
3. With the intent to cause physical injury, actually causing such injury to another person. Essentially, the same as a battery. So defined in the criminal statutes of some states, and so understood in popular usage.
It would be refreshing to read one response of yours during a position of debate that was devoid of snark.
I responded with what I know to be true, hence the NY qualifier, not intended as any offered standard across the land. Varies from state to state, there is no battery charge in the NYS penal law, no idea if it's on the books in his.
In any event, it's easily articulable that they'd both be guilty of the same, so it would a cross complaint. Either nobody goes or they'd both go, determined by them mostly, whether or not they wanted to pursue charges.
Learning that both would face arrest usually leads to both declining.
Wake
Active member
Well that makes a ton of sense why pop culture, including law and order, always get assault vs battery "wrong" per common legal definition and statutes here in Florida.
GenErr
Well-known member
I play in a golf league, and we're all seniors, many in their upper 80's. Most of the guys play once a week, and many are not very good - it is more social than athletic, and its a chance for them to get out of the house for a few hours. I get frustrated with their slow play (my regular foursome usually plays 18 in ~3:15) but the course has reserved time for the league and I have to accept that it is going to be a LONG round.
My opinion is that the course should have advised you that there was league play and it was going to be slow. If you decide to play anyway, be prepared to wait, and don't go yelling at the members of the league to speed up or threaten to "meet them in the parking lot." As frustrating as it is, this is their time on the course! JMHO
My opinion is that the course should have advised you that there was league play and it was going to be slow. If you decide to play anyway, be prepared to wait, and don't go yelling at the members of the league to speed up or threaten to "meet them in the parking lot." As frustrating as it is, this is their time on the course! JMHO
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- #93
I never even came close to threatening to "meet them in the parking lot". He was waiting for me at the place where all the carts enter the parking lot. I'm dead wrong here and I'll admit it. But that was for stopping my cart after I waved at him and he flicked me off.
I never threatened to meet anyone anywhere. I prepared myself to meet his charge on the fairway at hole 8. I'm not running from that any way any day. Mainly in that I probably would get caught if someone was serious about it and then I'd be too tired to defend myself, lol. The tired old electric carts that that course had aren't outrunning anyone either. I'm not really a backdown sort of guy. I don't think what I initially said was that bad either. If they didn't like what was said I'd have even tolerated a "hey, can it a-hole" with no more than a shrug and a wave. I wouldn't have even said it except we were running out of light. We were having an ok time just having putting practice on the prior green waiting for them.
3 holes in 1.5 hours is a little extreme and rediculous. That I'm not embellishing or exaggerating. It really took us 1.5 hours to play 7-9. They were on the tee on 7 when we were on the tee at 6. They were still on the tee at 7 when we finished up 6, a par 4. We weren't playing especially fast. I wasn't playing so it was only two but they hit their drives, hit their seconds, and finished out on the green before they got off the tee. There was no one on 7-9 when they were in the tee at 7 so it wasn't like they were waiting on someone. Our pace was for a 3 hour 18 through hole 6 (Not exactly playing super fast for two players in a cart).
I know I was in the wrong here. I certainly didn't threaten to meet someone in the parking lot. I was still upset when I posted that and it definitely showed. Had I known there was a total nutjob in that group I wouldn't have said anything. I don't think I have any duty to stand down when someone charges at me for nothing more than a "hey please hurry up so we don't run out of light". This isn't a brag or anything like that, I certainly don't want to ever get in a fight again. But I do know how to handle myself and once some fool charges after me for something as stupid as that, I won't run from it. As I stated it wouldn't do any good anyways other than tire me out before crazy man caught up with me.
All that said I was dead wrong for stopping in the parking lot. It was stupid to do if I was by myself and even stupider when I have my kids with me.
This also wasn't a group of 80 year olds. Hell I'd have never said anything in that situation and just been glad they were still able to enjoy getting out. I turn 40 soon and these guys are maybe 10-15 years older than me. There's no excuse for them playing a 4 hour nine, league, tournament, etc. None.
I keep going back to how this could have been avoided. It could have been avoided if I'd have said nothing. That's hard to do when it really was as slow as I stated. When there are three open holes in front of them. I'll probably go that route the next time.
It also could have been avoided if crazy guy didn't charge at me for no reason other than me asking in a halfway decent way if they could get a move on so we could finish too. It's not their right to play at whatever pace they choose, league or not. Just so long as they can get in before dark. Heck there wasn't anyone even still there from the league having drinks afterwards they were that far behind them. Usually there's a bunch of them all waiting. The bar area was empty they were that far behind.
Finally the real error in my judgement could have been avoided had I not stopped my cart when I got flicked off. This is really where I screwed up and I know it.
Saying something to them about the snail pace, a lot of people would have done that. The pace they were at was rediculous. Standing my ground when someone was charging at me, again I have no duty to retreat. Maybe by the time he got to me I'd have tried to reason. Actually I already was. I did yell up "hey I have kids here!" I don't think I put that in my original post. From a distance it would have been hard to tell as they look like skinny adults, ones 5'7" the other is 6'.
It was a bad night and I hope to never repeat it. I met a nut. That guy met a nut (me) once my "oh crap I'm going to have to fight " adrenaline rush started flowing. I'll try to do better in the future. I don't have anger problems. I may have adrenaline problems once the fight mode is turned on. It's hard for me to come back to normal from there but I hope to do a better job if I'm ever presented this situation again.
Gilbertc13
Mizuno Staffer
Like I said when we were texting Nate, I’ve been there, I’ve said stuff and acted and yelled before. What I don’t see here is your intent to actually fight in the lot. I just don’t see it. You waved to continue on and pass by him, he felt the need to continue the situation instead of leaving it there on the course.
Wrong on course behavior, reactionary in the lot. Just a learning experience
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Wrong on course behavior, reactionary in the lot. Just a learning experience
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Thanks. I was in the wrong for sure for confronting him by stopping the cart. I should have just kept on going. Especially with my kids with me.
It really is hard for me to control that adrenaline that gets released once the fight mode gets turned on. That happened once he charged at me. At that moment in time it was go time. I wish I had a switch to turn that back off, I really do. It's always been hard for me. I think that's evidenced by my post on here hours later where I was still struggling with it.
In my day to day work life I occasionally (a couple times a year) have to deal with someone that becomes combative. This usually happens when I detain them, or attempt to detain them, for stealing something. In that situation I'm usually standing in and filling the exit doorway. I never initiate contact but they aren't getting by me. I've dealt with it so much I can usually tell by their attitude when it's about to go south and I ALWAYS try to talk them out of it. Mainly in that it usually goes from a minor misdemeanor to a felony once they touch me.
I've learned from that that if I'm timid I'm going to get hurt. I've ended up in the hospital before. Once with a broken clavicle and once with a severe concussion.
So I'm not timid in that situation. Once they initiate contact my aim is to take them down and hold them there as safely and as effectively as possible. Even so I'm still fighting the adrenaline hours later. If that means I have anger issues, then I guess I do. I don't really think I do although I did a lot of things wrong here. My goal was to learn and grow from it. Having a negative experience like this on the course is not usual so I think I was shocked when it happened too. There was no time to prepare it went from "jeesh these guys are slow" to "holy hell, that maniac is charging me!"
Weird night that I hope never repeats and if it does I hope to handle my end better.
It really is hard for me to control that adrenaline that gets released once the fight mode gets turned on. That happened once he charged at me. At that moment in time it was go time. I wish I had a switch to turn that back off, I really do. It's always been hard for me. I think that's evidenced by my post on here hours later where I was still struggling with it.
In my day to day work life I occasionally (a couple times a year) have to deal with someone that becomes combative. This usually happens when I detain them, or attempt to detain them, for stealing something. In that situation I'm usually standing in and filling the exit doorway. I never initiate contact but they aren't getting by me. I've dealt with it so much I can usually tell by their attitude when it's about to go south and I ALWAYS try to talk them out of it. Mainly in that it usually goes from a minor misdemeanor to a felony once they touch me.
I've learned from that that if I'm timid I'm going to get hurt. I've ended up in the hospital before. Once with a broken clavicle and once with a severe concussion.
So I'm not timid in that situation. Once they initiate contact my aim is to take them down and hold them there as safely and as effectively as possible. Even so I'm still fighting the adrenaline hours later. If that means I have anger issues, then I guess I do. I don't really think I do although I did a lot of things wrong here. My goal was to learn and grow from it. Having a negative experience like this on the course is not usual so I think I was shocked when it happened too. There was no time to prepare it went from "jeesh these guys are slow" to "holy hell, that maniac is charging me!"
Weird night that I hope never repeats and if it does I hope to handle my end better.
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- #96
Absolutely correct sir. My only counter to that though is, should I never say anything to anyone when they are with me? That's not really practicle and there was nothing I originally said or did that warranted that guy charging at me. I've already explained why that once that happened I really had no course of action but to stand my ground. If he was intent on getting me he'd have caught me. Not to mention I damn sure am not going to leave my kids there alone.
I was DEAD wrong for stopping the cart in the parking lot and luckily, even though my neighbor was an a-hole towards me, I wasn't looking at him as a threat nor did I take his a-hole behavior badly. His actions were just words of which I did shake off. Sure it ticked me off but I wasn't worked up over it. The guy that charged me had represented a threat and even though he just flicked me off (and I should have ignored it) he had threatened me prior to that by charging at me.
The only way I could have avoided the entire situation was by not saying something that a lot of people would have said. You can't always avoid crazy. I should have avoided it from that point on by ignoring him, and I didn't. I'm wrong there for sure.
Atxpkrgolf
Active member
Not judging U but speaking from experience. I'm a hothead myself under certain circumstances. One time I honked my
Horn cause this ****stick was in turn lane but arguing with his girlfriend and could've gone like 3-4 times. There was nowhere to go around him. He got outta car and yelled at me and my 2 year old was in the backseat but I was having none of it. I got out and clocked him and knocked him down. He popped his trunk and grabbed a tire iron and by now people were stopped in the middle of the road and he took off when others got out.
He could've grabbed a gun and shot me in front of my kid though and I've never had that kinda altercation again. I'd say it's practical to stand your ground but I'd lean on the side of passiveness around your children but that's just my opinion
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- #98
I can certainly sympathize. I used to live in a major city and I no longer do. Traffic was a large part of that, but I'll never live that life ever again. I can tolerate it every now and then but when I want to get home for dinner, I have no desire to be late for it.
Not to lol at that but I understand. Long ago I was driving a chevy cavalier when some asshat in an 80k+ Lexus decided he was going to jump the line and cut in front of me. I didn't let him and he backed down outside of the car when it would have come to blows. Most do when they see me, lol. It's usually not considered conducive to ones health to continue on that course. I'm not a small human and most of my considerable weight isn't negative.
That tire iron could have been enough to end things. Unless you get in close enough fast enough, that is a deadly weapon. My particular latest charge at me, I was glad to see him chuck the club in his hand. I was dinking around with a wedge in the fairway and I did the same. Sure things can go really bad with fists but it's unlikely.
My worst fear is being killed with a cheap putter. I mean, if it's a Scotty or a Toulon, that's one thing (kidding). But an off the rack WalMart model? That'd be just embarrassing.
One of the things this has shown me is that I still have a desire to test myself in combat sports. I'm very sad to learn that the old "Toughman" contests are no longer out there. I competed in one a LONG time ago. I won by KO with my first round opponent and then got bludgeoned by my next (the 1 seed and eventual 6 time straight champion). I only harbor a small amount of pride when I say I was the only one that he didn't knock out that year (or any year). Probably because I was too dumb to fall down. I do remember stepping out there and for the next 3 minutes wondering how he was hitting me and where TF it was even coming from.
There are plenty of amateur MMA matches available for anyone that wants to compete. No thanks. I know how that'll go. I wasn't a state champion wrestler so I'll have zero chance against someone that turns me into a human pretzel. I'd like to think that I'm the next Chuck Liddell but I'm not. Any grappler will kill me. Im at least honest.
I can understand the OP. Things can escalate quickly. A couple years ago I was with a beginning golfer; course was full and the marshal asked us to tee off #10. We were playing slow but we would still usually have to wait on the tee box because the course was that packed. So a member at the course hit into us. I thought he didn't see us and didn't say anything. Then it happened again when my buddy was chipping up to the green and the ball whizzed by him. We finished out the hole but I went back to have a talk. Honestly I was pissed.
Let him know that the course was packed, the marshall had asked us to start at 10, but that there was no excuse to hit into us. Golf balls can cause injury, etc. Again my tone was pretty stern - no foul language but still damn serious. The guy gets out of the cart and has to be restrained by his playing partners, but when I saw him get out I was ready to get out as well in case he did throw a punch. Just a natural reaction.
I later spoke to the marshal just to let him know what happened. The group behind us wound up skipping ahead or leaving the course, not sure. But altercations do occur. In hindsight I could have handled it differently, making a joke or changing my tone while still getting my point across. The tone we use can have a huge effect on how situations play out. That initial yell from you set a bad tone, and sometimes that's the catalyst for an overblown incident.
Props for coming back and admitting it wasn't your finest moment Smiter.
Let him know that the course was packed, the marshall had asked us to start at 10, but that there was no excuse to hit into us. Golf balls can cause injury, etc. Again my tone was pretty stern - no foul language but still damn serious. The guy gets out of the cart and has to be restrained by his playing partners, but when I saw him get out I was ready to get out as well in case he did throw a punch. Just a natural reaction.
I later spoke to the marshal just to let him know what happened. The group behind us wound up skipping ahead or leaving the course, not sure. But altercations do occur. In hindsight I could have handled it differently, making a joke or changing my tone while still getting my point across. The tone we use can have a huge effect on how situations play out. That initial yell from you set a bad tone, and sometimes that's the catalyst for an overblown incident.
Props for coming back and admitting it wasn't your finest moment Smiter.
