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Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods

-CRW- said:
Scrambling percentage through improving my short game was the next piece I intend to work on. But since the woods/tee game is killing me the most, so it's the current priority (and as JB said, it has been for a long time now).
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i've been playing golf for 15 years, and the #1 thing beginners were told has always been to work on their short game. but within the past year or so i've seen a study quoted where they determined that most golfers throw away more strokes off the tee than any other part of their game. i think that conclusions also accounted for poor tee shots that, while playable, left the golfer with a low percentage chance of hitting the green. so i agree that you need to work on your tee game, but if a lack of up-and-downs is costing you 20 strokes, that's more strokes than the 12-16 strokes from tee shots are costing you. then again, being able to hit good drives is so much more fun than hitting good chips, amirite?! ;)
 
caeleric said:
i've been playing golf for 15 years, and the #1 thing beginners were told has always been to work on their short game. but within the past year or so i've seen a study quoted where they determined that most golfers throw away more strokes off the tee than any other part of their game. i think that conclusions also accounted for poor tee shots that, while playable, left the golfer with a low percentage chance of hitting the green. so i agree that you need to work on your tee game, but if a lack of up-and-downs is costing you 20 strokes, that's more strokes than the 12-16 strokes from tee shots are costing you. then again, being able to hit good drives is so much more fun than hitting good chips, amirite?! ;)
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Yes, and not chipping close enough to save par is much less frustrating and much less expensive than hitting tee shots into the woods. Again, it's not an ego thing, it was just prioritizing the issues I have in golf from worst to least bad. And short game/scrambling is next on the chopping block.
 
I spent some more time at the range today trying different techniques and after an hour of hitting or so, finally started to see some better results including some nice, long draws mixed in. I didn't have lesson so my coach didn't film any of my swings today. The things that seemed to help were activating my right arm more like Freddie suggested, and also narrowing my stance to ensure I wouldn't be swinging left by the time I made contact with the ball. Also, moving the ball back a hair, dropping the right foot back a few inches, relaxing a little bit and flexing my knees more and then straightening them (like a deadlift) just prior to contact. Each of the adjustments were minor, but combined seem to help. I didn't see many pushes. I saw some pull-cuts if I didn't get my set up right, but they would have been in the fairway - but just shorter because I was making contact on the heel when I saw those shots. Overall once I found a combination of things that worked I saw more good shots than bad.

My coach did spend some time with me after the range closed to go over all of my clubs lofts, lies, and swing weight. The lofts and lies were close to where they should have been according to stock specs and my custom specs, but I don't think TMAG adjusted the swing weights when they installed the shafts I ordered because they all came up lower than standard spec. My wedges were D0, my short irons D2, and my long irons D0. My driver and 3 wood were both D2. But, I also switched from standard to midsize grips, so I don't know how much I lowered the swing weight doing so. And I guess I'm less concerned with the swing weights over all, as I am to the the up and down in swing weight between wedges and long irons. I think I would rather have them be progressive as they would be at stock weight, though I don't know how much difference I would see in ball flight or consistency.

I also got copies of the videos from the other day, and some from a previous lesson. The first 3 are the driver videos from the other day, and I can't slow them down to pick the exact frame at the top and shaft parallel to the ground positions, but you should be able to pause close to them to get an idea. And it we were running out of day light so the quality of video suffered. Most are in slow motion, but there is one video from a previous lesson that is full speed. I'm not sure which clubs I was hitting on the iron shot videos.



[video=youtube;1IlC-xWxLgU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IlC-xWxLgU[/video]









 
I watched your videos and if you're willing, I'd like you to ask your coach to look at your alignment. Also have him look at your take away/shoulder turn. And he may want to look at your weight distribution on the down swing.

your shoulders are open to your intended target line. Your shoulders stop short of a full turn. This is leaving you in front of the ball (push fades). Your weight stays on the back foot longer then is recommended. I don't care if you fall back after getting through the ball but you're hanging back.

It seems your coach want to work on other things but if he has a second maybe he could look into what I mentioned or not. But I feel strongly that what I have mentioned will keep you in play.
 
Tadashi70 said:
I watched your videos and if you're willing, I'd like you to ask your coach to look at your alignment. Also have him look at your take away/shoulder turn. And he may want to look at your weight distribution on the down swing.

your shoulders are open to your intended target line. Your shoulders stop short of a full turn. This is leaving you in front of the ball (push fades). Your weight stays on the back foot longer then is recommended. I don't care if you fall back after getting through the ball but you're hanging back.

It seems your coach want to work on other things but if he has a second maybe he could look into what I mentioned or not. But I feel strongly that what I have mentioned will keep you in play.
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That is something that I've really struggled with when using the woods, especially the driver. I feel like the ball is so far forward when at the inside of my left heel that I am reaching for it and open up my shoulders to my target line. I try to overcome it by contorting myself back right (when I remember to do so). Maybe every now and then I twist my shoulders back right enough to get the good shots I see after every 8 or 9 bad shots. That may also be why I had a better results last night moving the ball back.

This is something my coach has mentioned, but we haven't really put a lot of effort into correcting it. We only set up an alignment station every so often, and there is no reason why we couldn't do it every time (they have tons of alignment rods, rope, etc.). I actually have my own alignment rods that I marked in 1" intervals with the intent to bring them to the range, find a set up that provides consistent results, and then use the measured alignment rods to repeat that set up with accuracy - I just haven't used them and I have myself to blame for that.

I think with the iron videos it looks like I'm open because of the camera angle. I'm actually aiming at flags on the far left side of the range along the left netting. The camera is on a tripod and he goes back and forth from front on to down the line views, depending on what he wants to look at. So there is no marked position to ensure that the camera is square to me, and I'm not using an alignment station to give the viewer an indication of how I'm really set up to my target line (good or bad).
 
Tadashi70 said:
I watched your videos and if you're willing, I'd like you to ask your coach to look at your alignment. Also have him look at your take away/shoulder turn. And he may want to look at your weight distribution on the down swing.

your shoulders are open to your intended target line. Your shoulders stop short of a full turn. This is leaving you in front of the ball (push fades). Your weight stays on the back foot longer then is recommended. I don't care if you fall back after getting through the ball but you're hanging back.

It seems your coach want to work on other things but if he has a second maybe he could look into what I mentioned or not. But I feel strongly that what I have mentioned will keep you in play.
Click to expand...

Yes the videos do shed some light. I think the main culprit is in the stance & setup. The forward ball position and big forward press do have your shoulders open at address. And it seems that it would be virtually impossible to arrive at impact with any consistency with that address.

Just for comparison, look at Jason Day's driver setup. It's much more relaxed and his hands are inside of his left leg with more of a vertical shaft. I'm no swing guru, but I could see your hands either flipping or holding on at impact, depending on your timing. With the setup below, I can imagine more passive hands at impact with the swing path dictating where the ball goes. And of course the shoulders are much more square in this position.

I don't want to muddy up your waters even more, but I do think your setup is dooming you before you even draw the club back...
daysetup_zps192d2e59.png
 
if you've been working with your instructor for years and he hasn't addressed some of the fundamentals in your swing, i'd be a little concerned. but if this is a new relationship, i'd give it time, keep listening to him and ignore me!

i feel like you're really close to playing some really good golf. i love your face-on setup with your driver. with irons, i think your feet could be a little narrower, and a little more bend from the waist rather than hunching your thoracic spine, but these are minor tweaks. the biggest tweak i'd think about is to your grip; it looks really strong to me, especially with your right hand.

tadashi makes a great point about your shoulder turn. this is something i struggle with as well, and my miss is exactly what tadashi suggsts: a push and at its worst a shank.

in the downswing of your driver swing, when the club is parallel to the ground and your hands are about waist-high, it looks like your wrist is cupped. i don't have a problem with a cup at the top, but i'd like to see a bit of a bow in the downswing and at impact, then back to cup after impact. but i can see where your frustration is: your swing actually looks pretty good all the way until the space between the club parallel to the ground and impact where something goes haywire. i don't know if this is the cause of the problem or a symptom of a different problem, but i do notice that your left hip stops pulling open once the club gets to parallel to the ground, and it looks like your lower body basically quits.

the biggest thing i see with your iron swing is how much you're flipping at impact. your hands need to be ahead of the ball and the shaft needs to be leaning toward the target. this would be a very high priority in my opinion, because this flip could also be leading to your short game issues.

in driver and iron swings, you could use more extension, with your arms. justin rose has one of my favorite swings on tour. i found this page with a lot of freeze frames of his sequence (full disclosure, i've haven't read any of the text on the page so i can't comment on whether there is good instruction). scroll down close to the bottom of the page and see image 7 and take note of how he is extended. swing back halfway with your lead arm parallel to the ground, then swing down into impact with your hands ahead of the ball and shaft leaning forward, then finish with your arms extended in front like justin. try that with your irons at half speed, 3/4 speed, then full speed. you should have divots ahead of the ball, and even your 1/2 swings will probably go almost as far as your current full swings go because you'll be compressing the ball with speed through impact.
 
pattyboy21 said:
Yes the videos do shed some light. I think the main culprit is in the stance & setup. The forward ball position and big forward press do have your shoulders open at address. And it seems that it would be virtually impossible to arrive at impact with any consistency with that address.

Just for comparison, look at Jason Day's driver setup. It's much more relaxed and his hands are inside of his left leg with more of a vertical shaft. I'm no swing guru, but I could see your hands either flipping or holding on at impact, depending on your timing. With the setup below, I can imagine more passive hands at impact with the swing path dictating where the ball goes. And of course the shoulders are much more square in this position.

I don't want to muddy up your waters even more, but I do think your setup is dooming you before you even draw the club back...
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I think some of its a little more exaggerated than it is from the camera angle, but like I said, I fight the open shoulders issue. I also read this morning that dropping the right foot while having the shoulders open can actually make the push/push-cut miss worse. So spending more time in a blocked alignment station will become a priority.

As for the hands, I'm not seeing it. Once you start the video you can click the settings icon and play it at 0.25 speed and increase the quality to 480p. When I view the head on driver video I see the shaft about in line with the hands and ball. It's even easier to see on the DSLR camera that is filming me and why we narrowed the biggest problem as the open face based on the down the line view. Though, with Freddie's input it sounds like the shoulders are a bigger problem than the open face.
 
caeleric said:
if you've been working with your instructor for years and he hasn't addressed some of the fundamentals in your swing, i'd be a little concerned. but if this is a new relationship, i'd give it time, keep listening to him and ignore me!

I started working with the current instructor some time between April and Jun. I had 12 lessons over 4 months or so with a different coach before that (Brian Smith), and 5 lessons with a different coach at Tour 18 at the end of 2013. And we have discussed the fundamentals, but my fundamentals vary from swing to swing. I think a blocked alignment station will help identify issues in my set up as they pop up from swing to swing.

i feel like you're really close to playing some really good golf. i love your face-on setup with your driver. with irons, i think your feet could be a little narrower, and a little more bend from the waist rather than hunching your thoracic spine, but these are minor tweaks. the biggest tweak i'd think about is to your grip; it looks really strong to me, especially with your right hand.

That's not me hunching my thoracic spine. That's my poor posture due to my build :beat-up:. I spent too much time over the last decade building the chest more than the back, and the posture has suffered. I did feel like I performed better last night with the stance narrower with the driver and irons. It felt like having my stance narrower and more relaxed forced my lower body to stay active in the swing for a longer period of time.

tadashi makes a great point about your shoulder turn. this is something i struggle with as well, and my miss is exactly what tadashi suggsts: a push and at its worst a shank.

I am going to mention it to the coach, but I'm not understanding what he means with the less than full shoulder turn. My right shoulder hits me in the right side of the chin shortly after impact and forces my face up and toward the target. Some of the problem may have started from my trying to slow down and limit my swing. When I first started seeing this coach I almost spun out of my swing after impact. My right foot would spin out with my heel pointing out toward where the ball originally was before impact (like perpendicular to the target line - way twisted). I struggle with rolling onto the inside of my right/rear foot, and instead get the twist/spin out.

in the downswing of your driver swing, when the club is parallel to the ground and your hands are about waist-high, it looks like your wrist is cupped. i don't have a problem with a cup at the top, but i'd like to see a bit of a bow in the downswing and at impact, then back to cup after impact. but i can see where your frustration is: your swing actually looks pretty good all the way until the space between the club parallel to the ground and impact where something goes haywire. i don't know if this is the cause of the problem or a symptom of a different problem, but i do notice that your left hip stops pulling open once the club gets to parallel to the ground, and it looks like your lower body basically quits.

The coach said the same thing when we looked at the video on his computer last night. My intent is to stay close to a neutral grip and keep a flat wrist throughout the swing. The cup was even more obvious just prior to impact. I'm not intentionally doing it, and I'm not seeing the same thing with the irons. That's why I wasn't sure if the total weight and/or added force from the longer club/faster swing is just over taking my flat wrist, causing it to cup.

the biggest thing i see with your iron swing is how much you're flipping at impact. your hands need to be ahead of the ball and the shaft needs to be leaning toward the target. this would be a very high priority in my opinion, because this flip could also be leading to your short game issues.

I think if you'll adjust the settings to 0.25 speed you'll see that it's not flipping a large amount and is occurring after impact. Though I definitely could use more shaft lean during the swing, but for power/distance because all the shots in the video were slight over draws (1-5 yards left of target) because I'm not holding the shaft long enough which is letting the face close too much/too soon. If you mark the ball position on the video and then look at the video after the ball leaves the club face, you can see that the divot starts after the ball.

in driver and iron swings, you could use more extension, with your arms. justin rose has one of my favorite swings on tour. i found this page with a lot of freeze frames of his sequence (full disclosure, i've haven't read any of the text on the page so i can't comment on whether there is good instruction). scroll down close to the bottom of the page and see image 7 and take note of how he is extended. swing back halfway with your lead arm parallel to the ground, then swing down into impact with your hands ahead of the ball and shaft leaning forward, then finish with your arms extended in front like justin. try that with your irons at half speed, 3/4 speed, then full speed. you should have divots ahead of the ball, and even your 1/2 swings will probably go almost as far as your current full swings go because you'll be compressing the ball with speed through impact.
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I will look over the page. I have to be careful with pushing extension because I have short/stocky arms so naturally my extension is going to look shorter than a wiry guys extension like Rose. If I push the extension issue I tend to disconnect and all kinds of bad things show up in the swing then. The same thing occurs when I try to swing my arms further back than I should for my build. I can make a full shoulder turn, but if I tried to have my arms vertically up and down at the top of the swing bad things happen. I don't have to do that either to be a long hitter so it hasn't been a priority in lessons to date.
 
What do you all think about something like this to use in conjunction with a blocked alignment station:

[video=youtube;X4YKTcH-Odc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4YKTcH-Odc[/video]

I could probably cut down a drive way marker to use as the rod and pick up some type of clips from Home Depot for around $5 total.
 
no offense, but you're wrong about your flip. even slowed down to 0.25, and paused at the exact point of impact with your iron, your right hand is behind the ball and behind its position at address. that's a flip. you can have divots that start ahead of the ball when you flip, but you are losing control and consistency with this impact position.

as far as the extension, i just don't agree that your size or length of arms has anything to do with extension. shorter guys like tim clark, zach johnson, mike weir, etc look very similar to justin rose after impact.
 
caeleric said:
no offense, but you're wrong about your flip. even slowed down to 0.25, and paused at the exact point of impact with your iron, your right hand is behind the ball and behind its position at address. that's a flip. you can have divots that start ahead of the ball when you flip, but you are losing control and consistency with this impact position.

Short of software to draw a line, you can place your thumb on the screen in front of my hands at setup and see that my hands get back to the same position just before impact. I need more shaft lean, but it's not a flip.

as far as the extension, i just don't agree that your size or length of arms has anything to do with extension. shorter guys like tim clark, zach johnson, mike weir, etc look very similar to justin rose after impact.
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I thought you were talking about on the way back, not forward.

ETA - I also looked over Rose's pictures. Not that what I'm doing is correct, but my shaft lean at address is more forward that Rose's (Rose Pic 1 in your link) and is where his shaft is at impact (Rose Pic 6). So when I return to that position at impact my shaft almost ends up where Rose's is at impact. But my hands need to be more forward because they are still behind my lead thigh, while his are on in front of his lead thigh. I think part of that is due to my stance being too wide - something I will test and get on film at my next lesson.

For reference:

meataddress_zps8aaa8e3c.jpg


meatimpact_zps338dcfc2.jpg


I couldn't capture the specific frame I was looking for, but this is before impact and my hands and shaft handle are in front of the ball.

Also keep in mind that my video was shot from somewhat behind me whereas Rose's was dead on. You see my shaft a little more forward in a direct head on view (not much) and my head appearing a little more left in the shot (right for me) and more behind the ball like in Rose's head on view.
 
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These are stills of me with my driver and iron at (my) full extension. I'm not sure how I am supposed to extend further, or what exactly you mean as the position is identical to Rose in the link you provided? I'm not being sarcastic, and if there is something I'm missing please explain it further. It is VERY obvious from the photos that I don't transfer my weight like I should be, and it's robbing me of power/distance. But again, my stance is much wider (too wide) so by setting up that way I'm probably making it harder on myself to get the weight forward.

meextension_zps5ebb58bc.jpg
 
I have understood your position in picture 6 to pretty much be the definition of a flip (the club has released before impacting the ball). Note how Rose's clubs still lags behind his hands and ball after impact. Maybe I'm mistaken, but to my eye your positions are completely different.
 
-CRW- said:
These are stills of me with my driver and iron at (my) full extension. I'm not sure how I am supposed to extend further, or what exactly you mean as the position is identical to Rose in the link you provided? I'm not being sarcastic, and if there is something I'm missing please explain it further. It is VERY obvious from the photos that I don't transfer my weight like I should be, and it's robbing me of power/distance. But again, my stance is much wider (too wide) so by setting up that way I'm probably making it harder on myself to get the weight forward.

meextension_zps5ebb58bc.jpg
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Again, to my untrained eye...Rose's extension is accentuated by a full hip rotation and true extension.it looks to me like your hips have stopped and you are holding off the finish a bit (it is a bit subtle but your left arm looks like it is/ has chicken winged a bit). While your arms are out in front of you, it isn't exactly a "release". Again, maybe I'm mistaken...and others who know more such as Freddie can surely chime in.
 
I'm looking at the hands/club handle being in front of the ball. Are you talking about the fact that the shaft is flexing forward already? I'm leery of relying on that to be a determining factor because I've always been told that most cameras do that because the frame rate doesn't keep up with the swing (i.e., it's an artificial bend unless you are using a top notch camera designed for filming something fast like a golf swing).
 
tequila4kapp said:
Again, to my untrained eye...Rose's extension is accentuated by a full hip rotation and true extension.it looks to me like your hips have stopped and you are holding off the finish a bit (it is a bit subtle but your left arm looks like it is/ has chicken winged a bit). While your arms are out in front of you, it isn't exactly a "release". Again, maybe I'm mistaken...and others who know more such as Freddie can surely chime in.
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The arm is extended, not chicken wing. It doesn't begin to fold until after the release/extension when the club folds up over my shoulder. The only difference I can see is his right hand is more over his left, but I hit draws with my irons with my grip. Trying to turn it over more (for me) results in hooks. But there was a comment above about my grip being too strong in the videos, so maybe if I weakened my grip my hands would end up looking more like Rose's at extension and still produce the desired shot shape.
 
EXACTLY what tequila4kapp said. he has exactly addressed what i'm saying re: shaft lean and extension, and he said it much better than i ever could. i'm just going to say this and be out: your definition of "exactly the same" is not what my definition is, so, while this has been entertaining and i've enjoyed the discourse, i think you and i are at an impasse. keep working with your instructor, and i wish you all the best.
 
pattyboy21 said:
Yes the videos do shed some light. I think the main culprit is in the stance & setup. The forward ball position and big forward press do have your shoulders open at address. And it seems that it would be virtually impossible to arrive at impact with any consistency with that address.

Just for comparison, look at Jason Day's driver setup. It's much more relaxed and his hands are inside of his left leg with more of a vertical shaft. I'm no swing guru, but I could see your hands either flipping or holding on at impact, depending on your timing. With the setup below, I can imagine more passive hands at impact with the swing path dictating where the ball goes. And of course the shoulders are much more square in this position.

I don't want to muddy up your waters even more, but I do think your setup is dooming you before you even draw the club back...
daysetup_zps192d2e59.png
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Crw is a big boy so hid setup has a lot to do with his size.

Alignment is a key factor in any repeatable golf swing. Grip, stance posture and alignment. Not changing anything but your alignment and turning behind the ball should fix what is broken.

Are there other things for Crw to work on, yes. But for now I wanted to offer something that his pro could incorporate into his teaching.
 
Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods

-CRW- said:
http://montescheinblum.com/blog/2012/07/12/rolling-shutter/

This is why the shaft looks like it's released before impact.
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Fair are enough. The easiest way I know for telling whether or not you are flipping the club is to turn it upside down so you hold the club near the face. Take your normal swing. If you hear the swoosh by your right hip you are flipping. If you hear the swoosh by your left hip you are releasing the club. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
caeleric said:
EXACTLY what tequila4kapp said. he has exactly addressed what i'm saying re: shaft lean and extension, and he said it much better than i ever could. i'm just going to say this and be out: your definition of "exactly the same" is not what my definition is, so, while this has been entertaining and i've enjoyed the discourse, i think you and i are at an impasse. keep working with your instructor, and i wish you all the best.
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I appreciate the input from you and tequila4kapp, but what he described as "flipping" was the shaft releasing before impact, which is an optical illusion caused by the camera shutter. My hands could stand to be more forward, I know that, but that is different then a flip. Transferring the weight forward better and earlier in the swing would also create more "lag".

What he described as extension is again a weight transfer issue. Extension at the end of the swing is describing the arms released and fully extended. I would be farther forward looking with my arms if my weight was more forward, but my arms are straight at extension and cannOT be any further extended from my body.

I think the impass is my understanding of the terminology for the failures in my swing are different than your understanding.

I think Freddie's comments are the big culprits. The rest are areas that are about maximizing distance and efficiency, but aren't killing me on the course.
 
This thread has been great.... I'm no swing expert by any means, and I also work with a coach. My question would be have you had a playing lesson? The reason I ask is that if set-up and alignment is a culprit, then your coach showing you correct way on the course will help with visualizing what to do when your coach isn't around. I know that my last playing lesson helped me. Just a thought. Also when, I've had problem with missing way right with the driver, I have switched to a ten finger grip on the driver in the middle of the round that seems to help (but unlike others here, I have no idea why it helped).


Dax
 
tequila4kapp said:
Fair are enough. The easiest way I know for telling whether or not you are flipping the club is to turn it upside down so you hold the club near the face. Take your normal swing. If you hear the swoosh by your right hip you are flipping. If you hear the swoosh by your left hip you are releasing the club. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Where did you hear this? The noise you speak of starts at the right hip through impact. All of the positive speed of a golf swing in generated from about the right hip area, with most of it happening at or just prior to impact.
 
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