Swing Thoughts

[Luchnia]

Wow, if man couldn't over ride one little movement of his body, we'd still be in the stone age.

Some minds just work so differently than others. I knew a guy that was an engineer and you dare not spark up a conversation with him about anything. For example, if you said that is some lush beautiful grass over there. You were doomed as he would tell you every minute detail of the grass from the seed to its daily growth and boggle you in the data aspect.

I liked him, but quickly learned NOT to go there because when I did I knew I was in for an engineering mindset whitepaper smack-down which turned into nothing of real value. Kind of reminds me of this right hand to the sky thing.

 

[rocullen]

Some minds just work so differently than others. I knew a guy that was an engineer and you dare not spark up a conversation with him about anything. For example, if you said that is some lush beautiful grass over there. You were doomed as he would tell you every minute detail of the grass from the seed to its daily growth and boggle you in the data aspect.

I liked him, but quickly learned NOT to go there because when I did I knew I was in for an engineering mindset whitepaper smack-down which turned into nothing of real value. Kind of reminds me of this right hand to the sky thing.

You had to bring up engineer!
I worked with one that said he learned two things in school; Gravity sucks and 2 objects can't occupy the same space at same time.
I told him if he learned one more thing, he could've been a plumber.

 

[Lane]

We must have read different books and articles about Hogan's swing (if Ben Hogan is the golfer you are referring to). He was big on supinating his left forearm before impact. Supination is palm up (when the forearm is below horizontal and palm down above horizontal). During the second half of the downswing his left palm was rotating upwards and his right palm was rotating downwards while his right upper arm was rotating clockwise. His right forearm was being rotated counterclockwise by the left forearm which had control of the golf club. There may have been resistance by the right forearm but it would have lost to the left forearm. So we have the left wrist closing the clubface and the right resisting through impact.

Razaar- maybe you want to rethink your statement and correct some things ! No human I have ever known could perform such a feat. Only a SUPERHUMAN could and Mr. Hogan was certainly only a human like the rest of us.
What human can “ rotate his LEFT palm upward and ROTATE his RIGHT PALM * downward while his RIGHT UPPER ARM * rotates * clockwise ? “ The slightest intent of the RIGHT HAND to ( either hand for that matter ) to rotate from palm facing upward to palm facing downward causes the elbow to immediately rotate upward in a opposite direction. That’s the way humans are structurally designed ! I didn’t make that up . That is NOT THEORY or OPINION.
You can observe any still of Mr. Hogan and you will notice his RIGHT ELBOW is locked on his right hip area even when his HANDS were directly in front of the crease in his slacks and while he has kept intact / maintained the same 90 degree angle between his arms and shaft / lever that he formed at the top . You will also notice the same in the TW pic I will attach .
This position they have achieved can only be attained by CONTROLLING the entire shaft / lever system with our DOMINANT HAND . (Yes , I know Mr. Hogan was born left handed , but even the God of golf couldn’t perform any other way . A basic knowledge of human genetics goes a long way in sorting out the opinion and theory ! And their is more than enough of that going around!

 

[Lane]

You had to bring up engineer!
I worked with one that said he learned two things in school; Gravity sucks and 2 objects can't occupy the same space at same time.
I told him if he learned one more thing, he could've been a plumber.

Well - there you have it . This 13 handicapper has put me in my place . Thanks for adding so much critical info to the conversation!

 

[rocullen]

Well - there you have it . This 13 handicapper has put me in my place . Thanks for adding so much critical info to the conversation!

Once again; reading is fundamental as well as comprehension.

btw, you're welcome.

 

[Lane]

Oops - firgot

Razaar- maybe you want to rethink your statement and correct some things ! No human I have ever known could perform such a feat. Only a SUPERHUMAN could and Mr. Hogan was certainly only a human like the rest of us.
What human can “ rotate his LEFT palm upward and ROTATE his RIGHT PALM * downward while his RIGHT UPPER ARM * rotates * clockwise ? “ The slightest intent of the RIGHT HAND to ( either hand for that matter ) to rotate from palm facing upward to palm facing downward causes the elbow to immediately rotate upward in a opposite direction. That’s the way humans are structurally designed ! I didn’t make that up . That is NOT THEORY or OPINION.
You can observe any still of Mr. Hogan and you will notice his RIGHT ELBOW is locked on his right hip area even when his HANDS were directly in front of the crease in his slacks and while he has kept intact / maintained the same 90 degree angle between his arms and shaft / lever that he formed at the top . You will also notice the same in the TW pic I will attach .
This position they have achieved can only be attained by CONTROLLING the entire shaft / lever system with our DOMINANT HAND . (Yes , I know Mr. Hogan was born left handed , but even the God of golf couldn’t perform any other way . A basic knowledge of human genetics goes a long way in sorting out the opinion and theory ! And their is more than enough of that going around!

Oops- forgot the pic of TW. Might as well attach these other decent players while I am here. They all use their dominant hands in the same way to jam their right elbow into their right hip area where it becomes the pivot of the swinging arms .
But what the heck do these hackers know ??????

 

[rocullen]

Oops - firgot

Oops- forgot the pic of TW. Might as well attach these other decent players while I am here. They all use their dominant hands in the same way to jam their right elbow into their right hip area where it becomes the pivot of the swinging arms .
But what the heck do these hackers know ??????

I haven't heard ONE PERSON REFUTE THAT THE HAND IS FACING SKYWARD at that position..

 

[Lane]

Oops - firgot

Razaar- maybe you want to rethink your statement and correct some things ! No human I have ever known could perform such a feat. Only a SUPERHUMAN could and Mr. Hogan was certainly only a human like the rest of us.
What human can “ rotate his LEFT palm upward and ROTATE his RIGHT PALM * downward while his RIGHT UPPER ARM * rotates * clockwise ? “ The slightest intent of the RIGHT HAND to ( either hand for that matter ) to rotate from palm facing upward to palm facing downward causes the elbow to immediately rotate upward in a opposite direction. That’s the way humans are structurally designed ! I didn’t make that up . That is NOT THEORY or OPINION.
You can observe any still of Mr. Hogan and you will notice his RIGHT ELBOW is locked on his right hip area even when his HANDS were directly in front of the crease in his slacks and while he has kept intact / maintained the same 90 degree angle between his arms and shaft / lever that he formed at the top . You will also notice the same in the TW pic I will attach .
This position they have achieved can only be attained by CONTROLLING the entire shaft / lever system with our DOMINANT HAND . (Yes , I know Mr. Hogan was born left handed , but even the God of golf couldn’t perform any other way . A basic knowledge of human genetics goes a long way in sorting out the opinion and theory ! And their is more than enough of that going around!

Oops- forgot the pic of TW. Might as well attach these other decent players while I am here. They all use their dominant hands in the same way to jam their right elbow into their right hip area where it becomes the pivot of the swinging arms .
But what the heck do tht

I haven't heard ONE PERSON REFUTE THAT THE HAND IS FACING SKYWARD at that position..

I haven't heard ONE PERSON REFUTE THAT THE HAND IS FACING SKYWARD at that position..

R- OK - do you believe what I have posted is factual or just my THEORY and / or OPINION ?

 

[rocullen]

Oops - firgot

Oops- forgot the pic of TW. Might as well attach these other decent players while I am here. They all use their dominant hands in the same way to jam their right elbow into their right hip area where it becomes the pivot of the swinging arms .
But what the heck do tht


R- OK - do you believe what I have posted is factual or just my THEORY and / or OPINION ?

I see it all the time. the trailing hand in that position. nobody is refuting that.
I just don't believe/buy in/ agree with that the dominant hand does all the control.
If you have passive hands in the swing and let centrifugal force activate the release, the dominant hand has nothing to do with it.
If you get the club in the position that you posted, I think P6; hands at the trail leg in downswing; and the hands are passive and are on the club shaft grip, and you started the down swing properly, that hand can only be in that position or very close.
As Hogan said, (paraphrased)automatically in the slot and in perfect position to deliver and inside out strike.

You, yourself, said earlier in the thread that you didn't have time to think during the down swing.
If you don't have time to think, how can you decide when to fire the dominant hand?
That would be a timing issue.

 

[rocullen]

Well - there you have it . This 13 handicapper has put me in my place . Thanks for adding so much critical info to the conversation!

BTW I just put 15 down as a guess.
In 2007 I won our clubs championship(with blades no less). I was tired of wasting the time so I quit golf that day. I didn't play for 10 years. Didn't even swing a club.
Came back to golf in late 2017 and about all I do is chase a repeatable semi correct swing. I practice about 2-3 hours a day' 15 to 30 minutes at a time.
I only play about 1 time every 2 weeks and that is 9 holes in a money game(skins and team) usual score is 38-40. I win some lose some.
I like hitting balls way more than I do playing.

show me your callouses and I'll show you mine.
I think Hogan(again...paraphrased) said don't bet with a man that has more golf calloused hand than you.

 

[Lane]

I see it all the time. the trailing hand in that position. nobody is refuting that.
I just don't believe/buy in/ agree with that the dominant hand does all the control.
If you have passive hands in the swing and let centrifugal force activate the release, the dominant hand has nothing to do with it.
If you get the club in the position that you posted, I think P6; hands at the trail leg in downswing; and the hands are passive and are on the club shaft grip, and you started the down swing properly, that hand can only be in that position or very close.
As Hogan said, (paraphrased)automatically in the slot and in perfect position to deliver and inside out strike.

You, yourself, said earlier in the thread that you didn't have time to think during the down swing.
If you don't have time to think, how can you decide when to fire the dominant hand?
That would be a timing issue.

R- if you truly believe that the hands of the great players I attached below * * automatically ** drop down into this position if the lower body starts the DS properly then you don’t believe in human traits dictated by human genetics. And - apparently you refuse to even consider those as relevant.
Maybe tomorrow why don’t you just refuse to use your DOMINANT THUMBS on your DOMINANT HANDS for any task today. Maybe just start your car with your legs and mash that accelerator and they will steer the car in the direction you intended?
Thanks for your reply . You are not going to learn anything from me so I suggest you just ignore my post ! Why waste your time ?
Wishing you the very best .
BTW - I have won many club championships In several clubs . Most after age 50 , but I have never heard of a 13 hdcp. , or a10 or a 6/8 winning their club championship! Kinda puzzling to hear!
Good luck !

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Mostly in the trap... which I left years ago. You must not have suffered the wrath there.

I did suffer some wrath once-or-twice. I just let it roll off. I read very little, there, and comment even more rarely.

Yep. I'm one who skipped the TGM craze.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't even know what that was.

Sorry to let you down.☹

You didn't let me down I was just surprised you didn't know what I understood to be common golf swing positional notation. Sure, nobody needs to know it to learn how to swing well, but, when talking about points along the swing, it's handy notation, I would think?

 

[Arlo]

I see it all the time. the trailing hand in that position. nobody is refuting that.
I just don't believe/buy in/ agree with that the dominant hand does all the control.
If you have passive hands in the swing and let centrifugal force activate the release, the dominant hand has nothing to do with it.
If you get the club in the position that you posted, I think P6; hands at the trail leg in downswing; and the hands are passive and are on the club shaft grip, and you started the down swing properly, that hand can only be in that position or very close.
As Hogan said, (paraphrased)automatically in the slot and in perfect position to deliver and inside out strike.

You, yourself, said earlier in the thread that you didn't have time to think during the down swing.
If you don't have time to think, how can you decide when to fire the dominant hand?
That would be a timing issue.

From a distance, I dont think anyone has said anything about firing the dominant(right) hand. As a matter of fact, talk was of hands rotating clockwise in DS, so that would make "firing" the dominant(right) hand impossible.
To fire the right hand would require CC rotation.
What is Compatible :
combine clockwise rotation of the hands during the DS and "sliding" the clubface under the inside quadrant of the ball.

 

[rocullen]

R- if you truly believe that the hands of the great players I attached below * * automatically ** drop down into this position if the lower body starts the DS properly then you don’t believe in human traits dictated by human genetics. And - apparently you refuse to even consider those as relevant.

BINGO.

Maybe tomorrow why don’t you just refuse to use your DOMINANT THUMBS on your DOMINANT HANDS for any task today. Maybe just start your car with your legs and mash that accelerator and they will steer the car in the direction you intended?

And that has to do with the golf swing....how?

Thanks for your reply . You are not going to learn anything from me so I suggest you just ignore my post ! Why waste your time ?
Wishing you the very best .
BTW - I have won many club championships In several clubs . Most after age 50 , but I have never heard of a 13 hdcp. , or a10 or a 6/8 winning their club championship! Kinda puzzling to hear!
Good luck !

I had ignored you for a couple of days, but the cannon fodder was so abundant.
I wasn't a 10 or 13 at THAT time. I won with a 68- 69. The clubs talent was a bit slim that year.
Do you ever read what people write or just see what you wanna see?

 

[rocullen]

From a distance, I dont think anyone has said anything about firing the dominant(right) hand. As a matter of fact, talk was of hands rotating clockwise in DS, so that would make "firing" the dominant(right) hand impossible.
To fire the right hand would require CC rotation.
What is Compatible :
combine clockwise rotation of the hands during the DS and "sliding" the clubfawece under the inside quadrant of the ball.

well, if you're controlling or have taught the dominant hand to attain that position, have you also taught it to fire(clockwise rotation) for a 3 iron, a 7 iron, a driver? 13 different clubs?
I thought you taught your hands not to roll over?!? You know to defeat the human instinct to feed themselves.

 

[wadesworld]

Thank God I just swing the golf club. I couldn't hit the ball at all if I tried to think about this stuff.

 

[Arlo]

Thank God I just swing the golf club. I couldn't hit the ball at all if I tried to think about this stuff.

On this we agree.
which is a good reason not to fire or hit anything.
KISS: Clockwise rotation and SLIDE .. goes for the BS and DS

 

[razaar]

From a distance, I dont think anyone has said anything about firing the dominant(right) hand. As a matter of fact, talk was of hands rotating clockwise in DS, so that would make "firing" the dominant(right) hand impossible.
To fire the right hand would require CC rotation.
What is Compatible :
combine clockwise rotation of the hands during the DS and "sliding" the clubface under the inside quadrant of the ball.

Mate you are the only one referring to the dominant right hand. The dominant hand for a righty is the left hand in the golf swing. The right follows the left. The clockwise rotation of the right arm during transition in an elite swing is the first movement of the downswing - the right shoulder externally rotates and retracts as the left shoulder is protracted. This happens as the thoracic spine releases its extension of completing the backswing.
I asked you if you knew two moves that were required for this type of swing and you said 'yes'. Obviously that's not the case.

 

[Arlo]

Mate you are the only one referring to the dominant right hand. The dominant hand for a righty is the left hand in the golf swing. The right follows the left. The clockwise rotation of the right arm during transition in an elite swing is the first movement of the downswing - the right shoulder externally rotates and retracts as the left shoulder is protracted. This happens as the thoracic spine releases its extension of completing the backswing.
I asked you if you knew two moves that had to bring g thi s type of swing and you said 'yes'. Obviously that's not the case.

LOL Shirley, your not saying a right handed person, (right hand dominant) becomes left hand dominant when that golfer swinging as right handed.
You know that if the right hand rotates clockwise in DS, that the left hand will also rotate clockwise?

.. thoracic spine releases!! Now kelvin m nonsense? using the spine to power the golf swing.
(nothing personal toward Kelvin, hoping he is able to recover from his stroke
but it is so dangerous to talk about using the spine to power golf swing....afraid what your two mystery moves may be

Critical analysis of theories

www.perfectgolfswingreview.net

 

[razaar]

LOL Shirley, your not saying a right handed person, (right hand dominant) becomes left hand dominant when that golfer swinging as right handed.
You know that if the right hand rotates clockwise in DS, that the left hand will also rotate clockwise?

.. thoracic spine releases!! Now kelvin m nonsense? using the spine to power the golf swing.
(nothing personal toward Kelvin, hoping he is able to recover from his stroke
but it is so dangerous to talk about using the spine to power golf swing....afraid what your two mystery moves may be

Critical analysis of theories

www.perfectgolfswingreview.net

I knew that before Kelvin. Abe Mitchell wrote about it in his two publications "Essentials of Golf" and "Down to Scratch". He said his only conscious thought of the shoulders during the backswing was consciously twisting his left shoulder towards the ball to complete the backswing. He wrote that players who fail to do this are cutting their body out of the downswing. He listed it as one of the top reasons for poor driving. He wrote that in 1932 - go figure.

 

[razaar]

@ Arlo
I play golf with a low marker who is a righty and grips the club left hand !ow. His right hand grips the butt if the club. I asked him which was his dominant hand when he swung. His said his right hand and arm did all the work and his left hand/arm web along for the ride to brace the right. He learnt to play golf this way as a youngster and stayed with it.
You will know Peter Senior. Well Pete got the yips in his short game and bunker play. Before that he had won every major title in Australian professional golf. He change his grip to left hand low and beat the yips. When he competed on the US Champions tour he was back to the conventional grip.

 

[Arlo]

I knew that before Kelvin. Abe Mitchell wrote about it in his two publications "Essentials of Golf" and "Down to Scratch". He said his only conscious thought of the shoulders during the backswing was consciously twisting his left shoulder towards the ball to complete the backswing. He wrote that players who fail to do this are cutting their body out of the downswing. He listed it as one of the top reasons for poor driving. He wrote that in 1932 - go figure.

You knew what before Kelvin? I have Down to Scratch and Abe Mitchell does not advocate to power the golf swing with the spine. ...the scapula .. yes
We twist the left shoulder(scapula) toward the ball in BS by elevating the left shoulder toward the left ear before starting the BS. (Ref The Hogan Manual of Human Performance: GOLF)

@ Arlo
I play golf with a low marker who is a righty and grips the club left hand !ow. His right hand grips the butt if the club. I asked him which was his dominant hand when he swung. His said his right hand and arm did all the work and his left hand/arm web along for the ride to brace the right. He learnt to play golf this way as a youngster and stayed with it.
You will know Peter Senior. Well Pete got the yips in his short game and bunker play. Before that he had won every major title in Australian professional golf. He change his grip to left hand low and beat the yips. When he competed on the US Champions tour he was back to the conventional grip.

Right side dominance doesnt change because someone changes to left hand low. Its genetic.
Every cell in our body contains memory going back to beginning of evolution.

The game of golf isnt going to change our genetics one bit.

 

[razaar]

You knew what before Kelvin? I have Down to Scratch and Abe Mitchell does not advocate to power the golf swing with the spine. ...the scapula .. yes
We twist the left shoulder(scapula) toward the ball in BS by elevating the left shoulder toward the left ear before starting the BS. (Ref The Hogan Manual of Human Performance: GOLF)


Right side dominance doesnt change because someone changes to left hand low. Its genetic.
Every cell in our body contains memory going back to beginning of evolution.

The game of golf isnt going to change our genetics one bit.

Here are his words at the end of Chapter 4 The Drive - Backswing Essentials of Golf.
"The extent to which the left shoulder turns is determined by the extent to which the right hip twists before it locks. When locking takes place all the muscles from the hip across the back are braced in an endeavour to hold the left shoulder. The player should feel well braced, with the swing well under control. In deed, while the left shoulder is following the hands the brace of the back muscles should practically be a conscious endeavour to twist the left shoulder in the opposite direction towards the hole. If this is not done the arms have no firm origin to work from. This is the prime cause of most of the spells of short, labored driving that many of us go through from time to time, for virtually the body is cut out."
Down to Scratch was written to answer questions Mitchell received from Essentials.. I recommend nyou get a copy of Essentials...given it is in reprint.

 

[uitar99]

As

I was one of them.

As am I. I lucked out three years ago. Was listening to Haney who suggested only working on your next worst ball flight mistake. Not how. At the same time reading Penick's Little red book talking about shooting at targets. Not how, just shoot at targets.

Its sorta like throwing a baseball. I just do it.

It forced me to figure it out.

Now I play golf, not golf swing.

 

[Desmond]

As

As am I. I lucked out three years ago. Was listening to Haney who suggested only working on your next worst ball flight mistake. Not how. At the same time reading Penick's Little red book talking about shooting at targets. Not how, just shoot at targets.

Its sorta like throwing a baseball. I just do it.

It forced me to figure it out.

Now I play golf, not golf swing.

Had a lesson on Friday. We ended with less than 100 yrd pitches. I was doing the Pelz thing. He stopped me and said - "Cut that out." Now this is a guy who collects data. He says, "It's like a free throw in basketball - just look at your target, visualize, and make your stroke. Free yourself up."

Seems to work - my one highlight yesterday was 30-80 yard shots.