Swing Thoughts

[Lane]

R

I don't see anywhere that Hogans left hand palm is facing skyward.View attachment 9022368

Rocullen - GEE- maybe you want to read Razaar’s first paragraph again slower! He clearly stated before impact. He was not talking about a sketch of Hogans grip .
BTW - if you want to improve your game I would suggest you closely observe and train your HANDS to perform in the manner he has described. It is the KEY to a successful golf swing. This control of his HANDS in the manner he described above forced his right elbow into his right hip where it became the pivot point about which Mr. Hogan”s arms rotated around his torso.
Well done - Razaar!

 

[razaar]

I don't see anywhere that Hogans left hand palm is facing skyward.View attachment 9022368

View attachment 9022370

The grip you see is the grip Hogan recommended in "5 Lessons...". The book was about he would teach golf - there is a difference between how he would teach and what he did to compete on tour.
His own grip had one knuckle showing on his left hand and three to four showing on his right hand. His left palm was up with the right palm down. Then he rotated everything clockwise as fast as he could and then everything counterclockwise as fast as he could. This was published in the Forward of Golf Digest Edition of "Five Lessons...." This is what Hogan told Nick Seitz, Editorial Director of Golf Digest.

 

[rocullen]

The grip you see is the grip Hogan recommended in "5 Lessons...". The book was about he would teach golf - there is a difference between how he would teach and what he did to compete on tour.
His own grip had one knuckle showing on his left hand and three to four showing on his right hand. His left palm was up with the right palm down. Then he rotated everything clockwise as fast as he could and then everything counterclockwise as fast as he could. This was published in the Forward of Golf Digest Edition of "Five Lessons...." This is what Hogan told Nick Seitz, Editorial Director of Golf Digest.

BS until you can show me in the jpg of him in Houston on the Wonderful World of Golf. The last picture. I am well aware of the story.
Plus, I am talking about neither a weak grip nor strong grip, just that he didn't have his left palm skyward at address.

 

[razaar]

BS until you can show me in the jpg of him in Houston on the Wonderful World of Golf. The last picture. I am well aware of the story.
Plus, I am talking about either a weak grip nor strong grip, just that he didn't have his left palm skyward at address.

These are his words to Nick.
"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."

 

[rocullen]

These are his words to Nick.
"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could. With this technique, I could hit the ball straight and farther."

OK, what does that have to do with the left palm facing skyward at address? Did you see him at address in the second picture?
Looks ALMOST identical to his illustration in his 5 Lessons.

 

[razaar]

Another
"I hit thousands and thousands of balls to find out exactly what happened in the swing and then took that and determined what would work out on the course under pressure. I never took a day off, and enjoyed the search. In my early years on tour I hooked the ball so badly I couldn't make a living. I even hooked with a weakened grip. I also couldn't hit the ball high enough. Finally I found something that enabled me to stop hooking and hit the ball higher".
This quote precedes the previous quote".
I have the words of USPGA top 100 teachers (who is retired and wrote a book "Golf from the Ground Up ", who included a chapter on Hogan and his grip during his best years.
I'll look up his exact woods on his grip to confirm how weak Hoga's grip was.

 

[rocullen]

Another
"I hit thousands and thousands of balls to find out exactly what happened in the swing and then took that and determined what would work out on the course under pressure. I never took a day off, and enjoyed the search. In my early years on tour I hooked the ball so badly I couldn't make a living. I even hooked with a weakened grip. I also couldn't hit the ball high enough. Finally I found something that enabled me to stop hooking and hit the ball higher".
This quote precedes the previous quote".
I have the words of USPGA top 100 teachers (who is retired and wrote a book "Golf from the Ground Up ", who included a chapter on Hogan and his grip during his best years.
I'll look up his exact woods on his grip to confirm how weak Hoga's grip was.

I'll help, he said he moved it 1/2" to the left. which, btw, I can still see 2 knuckles. Page 32 in 5 Lessons in my hard bound copy.

Just show me where his left palm is facing skyward.
That picture is from Shells Wonderfull World of Golf play Sam Snead and Snead said that is the best he ever saw Hogan play; hit every fairway and every green in reg.
I don't care if he twisted his arm off during the swing, that's NOT what I'm talking about.

Can you see his hands in the bottom picture?

 

[Lane]

OK, what does that have to do with the left palm facing skyward at address? Did you see him at address in the second picture?
Looks ALMOST identical to his illustration in his 5 Lessons.

Rocullen- please take this good advice from an old man who followed the herd for the first 20-25 years working maybe harder than any man ever has trying to become a good ball striker . I made a huge mistake which impeded my learning process. I listened to every word that every instructor said. I read every analysis from every book I read . BUT - i NEVER stopped to question anything I read or was told . A huge mistake on my part ! Your game will progress much faster if you will use your own skills of observation!
Please go to “ Ben Hogan 1963 BW and 90 FPS slomo “! Just mute the audio and pause at 0.32 . Where is his right palm facing ? If you don’t think it is facing exactly pointed at the sky could you , at least , say it is very close . Could we use that analysis just to make things simple ?
The only way he could possibly attain this palm UP position is by ** CONTROLLING ( forcing it to happen ) it with his DOMINANT RIGHT HAND. This is exactly as Razaar described.

 

[razaar]

I'll help, he said he moved it 1/2" to the left. which, btw, I can still see 2 knuckles. Page 32 in 5 Lessons in my hard bound copy.

Just show me where his left palm is facing skyward.
That picture is from Shells Wonderfull World of Golf play Sam Snead and Snead said that is the best he ever saw Hogan play; hit every fairway and every green in reg.
I don't care if he twisted his arm off during the swing, that's NOT what I'm talking about.

Can you see his hands in the bottom picture?

Can you see your left fingers at address with a one knuckle grip? If so then it is supinated. The fingers block out the palm.

 

[rocullen]

Arlo,
I did notice that the greatest ball striker in the game spent lots of time showing how he held the grip and how that kept the hands from rolling over . I also noticed the palm of his right hand was facing skyward at address . Seems that was very important to him .

You did not say "during the swing"

Rocullen- please take this good advice from an old man who followed the herd for the first 20-25 years working maybe harder than any man ever has trying to become a good ball striker . I made a huge mistake which impeded my learning process. I listened to every word that every instructor said. I read every analysis from every book I read . BUT - i NEVER stopped to question anything I read or was told . A huge mistake on my part ! Your game will progress much faster if you will use your own skills of observation!
Please go to “ Ben Hogan 1963 BW and 90 FPS slomo “! Just mute the audio and pause at 0.32 . Where is his right palm facing ? If you don’t think it is facing exactly pointed at the sky could you , at least , say it is very close . Could we use that analysis just to make things simple ?
The only way he could possibly attain this palm UP position is by ** CONTROLLING ( forcing it to happen ) it with his DOMINANT RIGHT HAND. This is exactly as Razaar described.

That is exactly what I'm doing here; questioning what you said. "the palm of his right hand was facing skyward at address".
I can't see that anywhere in a picture of Hogan at ADDRESS; during swing yes, but not at address.

 

[razaar]

You did not say "during the swing"


That is exactly what I'm doing here; questioning what you said. "the palm of his right hand was facing skyward at address".
I can't see that anywhere in a picture of Hogan at ADDRESS; during swing yes, but not at address.

This is why normal golf speak is misleading. Anatomical language is better suited to discussing positions etc in the golf swing. Simple doesn't apply when talking golf swing in my experience.

 

[rocullen]

This is why normal golf speak is misleading. Anatomical language is better suited to discussing positions etc in the golf swing. Simple doesn't apply when talking golf swing in my experience.

what is misleading about "address" and "during the swing"
I'd be willing to bet that 99% of golfers know address and during the swing instead of p3 or p4 or supination or flexion or whatever.

 

[razaar]

what is misleading about "address" and "during the swing"
I'd be willing to bet that 99% of golfers know address and during the swing instead of p3 or p4 or supination or flexion or whatever.

I don't know what P3 and P4 is as they are TGM speak. TGM is a language unique to Homer Kelly.

 

[rocullen]

I don't know what P3 and P4 is as they are TGM speak. TGM is a language unique to Homer Kelly.

how do you think regular golfers understand when people start spouting medial, lateral, proximal, distal, concentric, eccentric and all of the anatomical verbage.

 

[rocullen]

Rocullen- please take this good advice from an old man who followed the herd for the first 20-25 years working maybe harder than any man ever has trying to become a good ball striker . I made a huge mistake which impeded my learning process. I listened to every word that every instructor said. I read every analysis from every book I read . BUT - i NEVER stopped to question anything I read or was told . A huge mistake on my part ! Your game will progress much faster if you will use your own skills of observation!
Please go to “ Ben Hogan 1963 BW and 90 FPS slomo “! Just mute the audio and pause at 0.32 . Where is his right palm facing ? If you don’t think it is facing exactly pointed at the sky could you , at least , say it is very close . Could we use that analysis just to make things simple ?
The only way he could possibly attain this palm UP position is by ** CONTROLLING ( forcing it to happen ) it with his DOMINANT RIGHT HAND. This is exactly as Razaar described.

I question that also. It is not the only way. I've never seen a waiter use his dominant right hand to control his/her carrying hand.

 

[razaar]

how do you think regular golfers understand when people start spouting medial, lateral, proximal, distal, concentric, eccentric and all of the anatomical verbage.

I was one of them.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I don't know what P3 and P4 is as they are TGM speak. TGM is a language unique to Homer Kelly.

Never found cause to disagree with you before, but on this one... Srsly?

Golf Swing Positions

P1 - Setup/Address
P2 - Take-away - club parallel to ground (back-swing)
P3 - Leading arm parallel to ground (back-swing)
P4 - Top of back-swing
P5 - Leading arm parallel to ground (downswing)
P6 - Club/hands reach trailing leg (downswing)
P7 - Impact
P8 - Club roughly parallel to ground (follow-through)
P9 - Trailing arm roughly parallel to ground (follow-through)
P10 - Finish

Over at The Sand Trap they refer to them as "alignments" rather than "positions," but the point is roughly the same.

Not certain what you find objectionable about swing position/alignment numbers, other than they're "Homer Kelly-speak." (Being as I see them used often, incl. in the instruction I'm receiving, I think their use is a little more wide-spread than Kelly's book?)

 

[Desmond]

Never found cause to disagree with you before, but on this one... Srsly?

Golf Swing Positions

P1 - Setup/Address
P2 - Take-away - club parallel to ground (back-swing)
P3 - Leading arm parallel to ground (back-swing)
P4 - Top of back-swing
P5 - Leading arm parallel to ground (downswing)
P6 - Club/hands reach trailing leg (downswing)
P7 - Impact
P8 - Club roughly parallel to ground (follow-through)
P9 - Trailing arm roughly parallel to ground (follow-through)
P10 - Finish

Over at The Sand Trap they refer to them as "alignments" rather than "positions," but the point is roughly the same.

Not certain what you find objectionable about swing position/alignment numbers, other than they're "Homer Kelly-speak." (Being as I see them used often, incl. in the instruction I'm receiving, I think their use is a little more wide-spread than Kelly's book?)

Mostly in the trap... which I left years ago. You must not have suffered the wrath there.

 

[razaar]

You did not say "during the swing"


That is exactly what I'm doing here; questioning what you said. "the palm of his right hand was facing skyward at address".
I can't see that anywhere in a picture of Hogan at ADDRESS; during swing yes, but not at address.

There has been many teaching golf pros who got this wrong about Hogan's hands at address. This is just another example. They wrongly assumed that he had a strong grip like the grips of all the other legends of golf or even the grip in his book. I agree with you my previous reply may have indicated that I didn't.
I won't ramble on but point to Kelvin Miyahira's 2015 Article "New instinctive Golf Swing of Legends & closer look at Ben Hogan."
I assume that some teachers and experts didn't know how much Hogan rotated his left arm during the swing and how his right hand position on the club served as a governor to the rotation with his right elbow down and in. They may have assumed that he rotated his right arm during the backswing, which also cups the left wrist but without the rotation of the left arm (because it was already rotated at address).

 

[rocullen]

I'll take the blame. I didn't want to quote the person that printed that. Had enough of circular arguments
I can see where Razaar may have thought I was replying to his post about Hogan just before mine.
I'll make a point to post/quote whomever I'm replying to for clarity, even if it kills me from now on.

Sorry, didn't mean to cause a page and a half of confusion.

edit: and I said left hand when it was referenced as right hand. I'm left handed and got em mixed up a time or two. but neither hand had palm up at address, so I got by with that.

 

[razaar]

Never found cause to disagree with you before, but on this one... Srsly?

Golf Swing Positions

P1 - Setup/Address
P2 - Take-away - club parallel to ground (back-swing)
P3 - Leading arm parallel to ground (back-swing)
P4 - Top of back-swing
P5 - Leading arm parallel to ground (downswing)
P6 - Club/hands reach trailing leg (downswing)
P7 - Impact
P8 - Club roughly parallel to ground (follow-through)
P9 - Trailing arm roughly parallel to ground (follow-through)
P10 - Finish

Over at The Sand Trap they refer to them as "alignments" rather than "positions," but the point is roughly the same.

Not certain what you find objectionable about swing position/alignment numbers, other than they're "Homer Kelly-speak." (Being as I see them used often, incl. in the instruction I'm receiving, I think their use is a little more wide-spread than Kelly's book?)

Yep. I'm one who skipped the TGM craze. I wasn't that into golf when TGM was a big thing. I did read Scott Gunner's book "Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine" and browsed through the actual book. Gunner did a pretty fair summary of The Golfing Machine at the end of his book. Sorry to let you down.

 

[Lane]

I question that also. It is not the only way. I've never seen a waiter use his dominant right hand to control his/her carrying hand.

R- HUH????? How else could you carry a tray of food without the PALMS facing upward ? Please explain that to me !

 

[rocullen]

R- HUH????? How else could you carry a tray of food without the PALMS facing upward ? Please explain that to me !

R- HUH????? How else could you carry a tray of food without the PALMS facing upward ? Please explain that to me !

please discuss apples to apples.
I am not saying there is another way to carry the tray.
I am saying that a waiter does not use his off hand to keep that hand in position.
Reading is fundamental.

 

[Luchnia]

Reading is fundamental.

Comprehension is a huge plus as well.

BTW, one has to wonder why most waiters don't use both hands to carry trays. Is it because they have learned that carrying a tray requires the hand to be flat to support the tray? Imagine that LOL

Not gonna ask where this right hand pointing to the sky stuff even came from. IMO it has little to nothing to do with a decent golf swing. Ought to poll the world's best golfers and ask them if they think about their right hand pointing to the sky. Now if some had of stated that the right hand pointing to the target we might be on to something

 

[rocullen]

Comprehension is a huge plus as well.

BTW, one has to wonder why most waiters don't use both hands to carry trays. Is it because they have learned that carrying a tray requires the hand to be flat to support the tray? Imagine that LOL

Not gonna ask where this right hand pointing to the sky stuff even came from. IMO it has little to nothing to do with a decent golf swing. Ought to poll the world's best golfers and ask them if they think about their right hand pointing to the sky. Now if some had of stated that the right hand pointing to the target we might be on to something

Wow, if man couldn't over ride one little movement of his body, we'd still be in the stone age.