Swing Thoughts

[Luchnia]

How true regarding the magical tip. But, I wish I can just look at the target and go, on a full swing. It does work on shorter shots where feel is important. My full swing gets worse without swing throughts.

I think this part just takes time and practice. I found that I had the same issue, yet the more I played and practiced the more I was able to improve with my full swing. Not always there, but gets better as I work on it.

Me and a buddy were playing a round and he was struggling bad with his irons. We got to one hole and I simply told him, "Do me a favor, hit to that brown grassy area just off center about 150 out up on the hill." He hit the ball and he did miss the area some but he was very close and had nice trajectory and range.

I had him repeat this several times and each time he was able to get close. He could not believe what had happened. He took his mind off all the swing stuff he had been told for a few moments and simply hit the ball to the target area. Of course it wasn't long before he was back into the swing "mechanics" stuff of fix this, fix that, do this, do that, and he was whacking strays again.

I think we know a lot of it is different for different people. Obviously some can think of swing mechanics even while they swing. I know another guy that is very analytical and he can tell you exactly what happens during about ever facet of his swing. He might say, "I turned a few degrees inward on my stance." Seems odd, but he knows what he does. I am somewhat like that as well, but my focus is more on target and course strategy as that is how I play my best golf.

 

[rocullen]

If the hips begin to rotate at the very start of the DS the hips will automatically have to rotate also . This powerful shoulder rotation forces the hands and arms out which approx. 95 % of golfers do .

No, they don't have to automatically rotate with the hips. In fact a lot of teachers/pros insist that the hip rotation start before the end of the back swing. It's called building tension between shoulders and hips; increases power and lowers the hands into the slot.

I can rotate my hips and shoulders in different directions and I'm an overweight 67 year old man. You must be bound up somewhere if your shoulders have to rotate when your hips do.

Good players drop the entire lever system/ shaft down and back before the shoulders begin to rotate. This drop down pulling back movement of the dominant hands forces the trapezius muscles to pull back on the large Scapula bone to keep it from pushing out and around and taking the arms with it . Otherwise , the player could never be in what Ben Hogan called , “ the slot “!
if you closely observe the great ball strikers you can easily see them performing this way .

What you see in the pros is the automatic hand lowering from the hip rotation.
When you rotate the hips is induces a tilted plane, which is lowering of the hands and getting into the slot.
If you lower the hands before the hip rotation you run the risk of creating slack between the shoulders and the hips which is a power killer not to mention consistency.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.
If in 5 or 7 years the teachings of golf instructors say forget hip rotation and just concentrate on the hands, I'll eat my words(if I'm stlll alive and playing), but for now I'm going with what's been proven/used for the last 60 years.


I know the comeback; handicaps are still not coming down. Probably because of reading comprehension and misinterpretation.
Like so many golf experts say Hogans 5 Fundamentals is the book of slices. They take one of his PERSONAL adjustments(weak grip) and turn it into a slice inducer.
He clearly stated that it is something HE does and it may not work or be needed for you. 5 Fundamentals has been read by almost all pros, maybe not strictly adhered to but it influenced their golf in the early years. It's called "Fundamentals" because you go on to your own personal adjustments thru practice/playing.

Now, with all of that said; If I'm practicing and having a hard time getting into the "no hands" swing(I used my hands for years and years), I'll picture a baseball batter stepping into the pitch(which by the way I don't see the shoulders automatically go with, they get left behind to increase the drag thru effect)

BTW; if you can only think of one thing during the down swing, thinking of pulling the hands down leaves no room for anything else and how much do you pull them down?
Rotating the hips is automatic if you wind up properly in the backs wing, you don't even have to think about it. The hips are loaded and ready to go.

 

[rocullen]

Right. But, why is it so easy (with no intention) in baseball? I suspect, we could drill our juniors to death and maybe in their 20's, it will be natural, lol.

Really can't see where you say it's not natural. If you was going to push something, wouldn't you step into it.?
If you were going to pull a rope, would you stand flatfooted or step into it?

A baseball play has no intention????

 

[Lane]

R,
Apparently I am different BC I can’t rotate / turn my torso am make BS and rotate / turn my hips on the DS without my shoulders rotating out and around . My shoulders and hips are all tied together. I certainly wish I could do that , but i expect most humans can’t?
I would recommend you check out * Cortical Homunculus *
if the golf swing was NATURAL why are our greatest Pro Basketball, Baseball , Football players not winning every golf tournament every week ?

 

[Turtlerancher]

@Lane and @rocullen , I think you're both saying the same thing. Yes, your shoulders will follow the rotation of your hips Lane but, there is a certain amount of torso rotation that separates your shoulders from the hips as rocullen states. This amount varies with all people but until your body comes up to those limits opposite rotation is possible between the hips and shoulders. JMHO.

 

[Desmond]

I'm hearing a lot of mechanics and not swing thoughts .... but whatever interests you.

 

[rocullen]

R,
Apparently I am different BC I can’t rotate / turn my torso am make BS and rotate / turn my hips on the DS without my shoulders rotating out and around . My shoulders and hips are all tied together. I certainly wish I could do that , but i expect most humans can’t?
I would recommend you check out * Cortical Homunculus *
if the golf swing was NATURAL why are our greatest Pro Basketball, Baseball , Football players not winning every golf tournament every week ?

who said it was natural??? and you must be differnt.

https://golf-info-guide.com/golf-ti...wnswing-before-finishing-back-swing-golf-tip/

 

[rocullen]

I'm hearing a lot of mechanics and not swing thoughts .... but whatever interests you.

it all stems from a swing thought.

my swing thought these days is down thru bottom of arc(and where that's supposed to be); all part of club head path.

 

[Lane]

R,
Mr. Styles is absolutely correct that players start their DS while the shaft is still going back. However, I hope you don’t mind if I respectfully disagree with his assessment. I try to avoid theories and opinion and stick with the facts. Especially when I hear someone describing how the upper torso * coils* over the lower body and * uncoils * on the DS. Snakes and springs coil , but Human muscles don’t COIL . Never have , never will. They can only stretch and pull to form levers with our bones.
More than 40% of the human brain is dedicated to it’s dominant hands and if you make an effort to pull any object with those hands your hips and lower body will automatically kick in and begin to pull that object in the direction you desire BC our hands don’t possess the necessary power for that. They ONLY dictate and control and the human body is designed to accommodate the path those dominant hand desire to travel .
One may have the most wonderful hip and shoulder rotation in the history of golf , but our hands will always roll over, turn down and travel outward BC they are designed specifically to bring food to the human mouths . This is perhaps why millions of players swing out and around and hook, pull and slice. They must be taught to perform a task that is totally foreign and opposite the human genetic design.
Thanks much for your reply . i hope you will continue.

 

[rocullen]

R,
Mr. Styles is absolutely correct that players start their DS while the shaft is still going back. However, I hope you don’t mind if I respectfully disagree with his assessment. I try to avoid theories and opinion and stick with the facts. Especially when I hear someone describing how the upper torso * coils* over the lower body and * uncoils * on the DS. Snakes and springs coil , but Human muscles don’t COIL . Never have , never will. They can only stretch and pull to form levers with our bones.
More than 40% of the human brain is dedicated to it’s dominant hands and if you make an effort to pull any object with those hands your hips and lower body will automatically kick in and begin to pull that object in the direction you desire BC our hands don’t possess the necessary power for that. They ONLY dictate and control and the human body is designed to accommodate the path those dominant hand desire to travel .
One may have the most wonderful hip and shoulder rotation in the history of golf , but our hands will always roll over, turn down and travel outward BC they are designed specifically to bring food to the human mouths . This is perhaps why millions of players swing out and around and hook, pull and slice. They must be taught to perform a task that is totally foreign and opposite the human genetic design.
Thanks much for your reply . i hope you will continue.

Now we're down to nitpicking terminology! If the shoulders torgue against the hips, there is a coil effect. One particular muscle does not coil, granted, but the body is wound up like a spring. If you rotate as far as you can in one direction and relax, your body will go the other direction, it won't throw you into tomorrow, but it will unwind.

Reply to bold statement;
All good...for feeding one self. You said golf ain't natural and that the shoulders and torso square the club face and provide power.
Now, for the final question; Is golf natural and the mind controls the body for the hands ala nature or is golf not natural and do you have to learn motor skills for golf?
All I can really respond is you seem completely contradictive; Golf isn't natural; the brain handles the body for the hand naturally; they must be taught to perform a task that is totally foreign and opposite human genetic design.
So which is it? let the brain control for the hands naturally or learn new motor skills?????

I know when I perform my new approach to the swing properly, my hands don't even exist, except to hold the club. I don't have to have a conscious thought when to apply power, square the clubface, roll, or whatever and it's because of a good(may not wonderful) hip turn and shourder rotation. In fact if the hands do get involved, the swing/shot is usually ruined. I have been more accurate lately instead of left/right golf.
It took a while to get this working. I played "by hand" for decades(off and on) and just depending on the proper rotations was/is a learning process.
I haven't achieved perfection, probably never will, but I finally feel what a "flail" swing or as GM says "an endless belt" and when done right the club/club face/path is almost completely automatic...no thoughts necessary except for where you want the club lows pot/path and that is dictated to a large degree by plane of backswing.

 

[Lane]

R,
Good questions- the human brain sends signals to its dominant hands to perform task . Most are embedded in our subconscious mind and we go through our daily lives without thinking how the hands perform. Obviously , task that require such skills as required of a Surgeon, Carpenter ,, Watchmaker , Artist , Musician, Etc; are learned conscious efforts. Not in our subconscious mind .
Oh - I forget - the golf swing is in that same category above ! If it were natural I would not play Michael Jordan for money !
thanks much for our discussion. No trying to change your mind . Just some of my thoughts and training. Maybe someone can make some use of them.

 

[rocullen]

Then I can't really see the point of your discussion. If the motor skills have to be learned to play golf, all of the natural "taking care of business" is out the window.
It must be re-trained to perform the golf swing.

 

[Lane]

R,
Well stated . That’s exactly correct. If it was natural then 25 million players would not be buying books , tapes and lessons . That wouldn't be necessary.
Their are millions of exceptional athletes who can’t break 100.

 

[razaar]

Having finally learnt all the micro and macro movements in a rotational swing with a hold-off release, I have narrowed my actual swing thoughts to one downswing feeling.
The tailbone moving rapidly away from the target while externally rotating the right shoulder and driving the elbow towards the left elbow. ER of the shoulder feels like putting the arm into a coat sleeve.
After the shot I review what I felt against the result. If I stuffed up I look for where I went wrong. In order to do this I need to own my swing and have an awareness of what has happened.

 

[OldandStiff]

This thread has given me a new swing thought. So know that next time I'm over the ball, probably tomorrow, you guys are going to be on my mind and I'm going to be thinking only one thing..

How the f**k do some of y'all actually hit the ball thinking about all this stuff?!

And I appreciate you giving me that thought, because it will keep me from thinking about things I shouldn't once I'm over the ball, and let a good swing happen.

 

[Turtlerancher]

Only thought I've been using lately is "Exhale".

 

[rocullen]

How the f**k do some of y'all actually hit the ball thinking about all this stuff?!

Pretty good most of the time.

 

[Lane]

Oldandstiff,
I don’t- that is the point I am trying to make. If the human brain can ONLY sort out and perform one task in 2/10 seconds wouldn’t it be advantageous to know what parts of the human structure commands/ directs it’s movements? What are the ONLY connection / attachment to the lever we hold ?
If Dr. Penfield ‘s research * Cortical Homunculus * is factual ( and the medical experts agree it is ) and more than 40% of the brain is dedicated to our head and also more than 40 % is dedicated to our hands with a little left for reproductive organs. The upper and lower torso exist to obey the commands of the brain and hands .
You may have the finest hip turn, shoulder rotation ever in mankind history , but your DOMINANT HANDS will be headed in the direction they are genetically designed - to the centerline of the chest palms together thumbs facing skywards In a prayer position. AND - they always will unless your DOMINANT HAND is taught / forced to react in an opposite manner it is designed . it must not be allowed to roll over . The palm of the dominant hand needs to be trained to stay palm up during the entire ds.
Since you are a excellent player I expect you already perform this way. Otherwise, you would spend lots of time looking for your ball in the left rough.
Good luck.

 

[Lane]

Razaar,

I like your * hold off release * statement. Do you think your hands play a part in making that happen ?

 

[Puttmaster]

 

[rocullen]

The palm of the dominant hand needs to be trained to stay palm up during the entire ds.
Since you are a excellent player I expect you already perform this way. Otherwise, you would spend lots of time looking for your ball in the left rough.
Good luck.

smh:starwars:

 

[Desmond]

Oldandstiff,
I don’t- that is the point I am trying to make. If the human brain can ONLY sort out and perform one task in 2/10 seconds wouldn’t it be advantageous to know what parts of the human structure commands/ directs it’s movements? What are the ONLY connection / attachment to the lever we hold ?

Since you are a excellent player I expect you already perform this way. Otherwise, you would spend lots of time looking for your ball in the left rough.
Good luck.

Lane, a question, because your responses remind me of several golfers over the decades I've been on golf forums.

Are you from the UK or EU?

I've noticed a difference in how people respond based on their region. It's interesting.

As to this thread, I think your posts are more mechanical. In the States, when we someone is asked about swing thoughts, it's in the context of when you are on the course, what are one or two thoughts before your swing - the response may be tempo, do something to get unstuck, get on front foot, i.e. their dominant issue.

It's not about dominating hands, arms, body, etc. Those are what we consider mechanical issues on which you work on the range, not on the course.

At the same time, feel free to discuss.

 

[Lane]

Desmond,
Thanks for you reply. I live in Georgia. Whether or not you consider what I post as being mechanical is your decision. When a human attaches a golf shaft ( or any implement ) to it’s hands it becomes part of a very complicated lever system in which hundreds of muscles are constantly pulling bones around to form levers. The human body is a mechanical system . Since we know from research that more than 80 % of the left side of the righties brain is dedicated to it’s right side movement how could we possibly consider that the LEFT HAND and ARM * control the lever / shaft - as we have been told for 50-60 years???? That is against all reason !
If you hold a shaft , ruler , bat, axe, tennis racquet, or any lever in you right hand only and pull it back around back behind your torso did your shoulder and hips turn to accommodate the path they traveled ? If you pull that same lever down and around as if making a golf swing did your shoulders, hips legs follow suit ? Did they rotate around as they were instructed to by your DOMINANT RIGHT HAND ? I expect they did and I don’t expect you gave any thoughts about how and why your torso rotated.
If rhe brain is ONLY capable of sorting out and performing one task in 2/10 seconds and more than 80 % is dedicated to it’s DOMINANT RIGHT HAND and the body will always obey their commands - why do we still the movement of the hips , legs , shoulders, feet as being the key to the swing ? The hands don't possess any power to propel any object , but they do have * control * over the body .
Makes things much more simple when you have a basic understanding of how the human is genetically designed/structured and the one part that more attention should be given.

 

[Desmond]

Desmond,
Thanks for you reply. I live in Georgia. Whether or not you consider what I post as being mechanical is your decision. When a human attaches a golf shaft ( or any implement ) to it’s hands it becomes part of a very complicated lever system in which hundreds of muscles are constantly pulling bones around to form levers. The human body is a mechanical system . Since we know from research that more than 80 % of the left side of the righties brain is dedicated to it’s right side movement how could we possibly consider that the LEFT HAND and ARM * control the lever / shaft - as we have been told for 50-60 years???? That is against all reason !
If you hold a shaft , ruler , bat, axe, tennis racquet, or any lever in you right hand only and pull it back around back behind your torso did your shoulder and hips turn to accommodate the path they traveled ? If you pull that same lever down and around as if making a golf swing did your shoulders, hips legs follow suit ? Did they rotate around as they were instructed to by your DOMINANT RIGHT HAND ? I expect they did and I don’t expect you gave any thoughts about how and why your torso rotated.
If rhe brain is ONLY capable of sorting out and performing one task in 2/10 seconds and more than 80 % is dedicated to it’s DOMINANT RIGHT HAND and the body will always obey their commands - why do we still the movement of the hips , legs , shoulders, feet as being the key to the swing ? The hands don't possess any power to propel any object , but they do have * control * over the body .
Makes things much more simple when you have a basic understanding of how the human is genetically designed/structured and the one part that more attention should be given.

I swear you must have lived in the UK because your responses are just like someone from the UK.

I can't really get into your posts or anyone else's about the golf swing. No offense but I pay someone to instruct me and I pay attention to him.

I relayed to you what most of us consider as swing thoughts on the course. If I thought about that on the course, I'd go have a pint and forget golf. If you don't want to listen to me, that's fine. But that really makes you sound ike a UK'er.

It's all good.

 

[Lane]

Desmond,
Good luck , wishing you great success in the wonderful game. Thanks for sharing!