They are flush but they have no way to begin to offer ROI based on what was initially invested. My point is at some point, SSG is going to want to see $$ flowing their way and not just out of their accounts
The Liv Golf Rumor and News Thread
CrashTestDummy
Well-known member
I was thinking that perhaps echico might be a LIV player burner account. Not out of the realm.Manifest it into reality.
I have a price but they haven't offered yet.I was thinking that perhaps echico might be a LIV player burner account. Not out of the realm.
Well. The PIF is not getting any ROI either. I get deeper pockets but no one is making money soon.
Louis_Posture
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There has never been anything (of material significance) wrong with the PGA Tour's "financial state". Here is a link to the past few years financial summary numbers derived from PGA Tour tax filings:
Pga Tour Inc - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica
Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.
projects.propublica.org
I don’t have time to read that but unless it includes the for profit side and not just The non profit, it’s not an accurate representation of where they are financiallyThere has never been anything (of material significance) wrong with the PGA Tour's "financial state". Here is a link to the past few years financial summary numbers derived from PGA Tour tax filings:
Pga Tour Inc - Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica
Since 2013, the IRS has released data culled from millions of nonprofit tax filings. Use this database to find organizations and see details like their executive compensation, revenue and expenses, as well as download tax filings going back as far as 2001.projects.propublica.org
Agreed but the PIF isn’t in this to make money right now. Unlike the PGAT who need to turn profits to support elevated events, keep players happy and ultimately return $$ to SSG
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What does this have to do with PIF starting the Aramco Series and no one in golf saying a word negative about it? No blood money, 9/11, human rights, sportswashing, ad nauseam. Nothing.Well maybe a few people had a problem with it
Golf Saudi reportedly blocked proposed LPGA-LET merger last year
According to reports by The Telegraph and Golfweek, Golf Saudi requested more information, causing the LET to suddenly cancel its vote on the merger.www.nbcsports.com
This is an article about Golf Saudi pulling the Aramco series if there was a merger.
So anyone on THP who cries about the Saudis and didn't say a word about the Aramco series is full of sh*t.
CrashTestDummy
Well-known member
While speaking with The Daily Mail prior to his start at LIV Las Vegas, Cam Smith called joining LIV “one of the best decisions I've ever made.”
Lots more interesting information in the interview.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Lots more interesting information in the interview.
Cam Smith on Las Vegas, the Great Barrier Reef and joining LIV Golf
EXCLUSIVE BY DANIEL MATTHEWS IN LAS VEGAS: Around 18 months have passed since Smith defected from the PGA Tour to LIV Golf. His verdict now? 'One of the best decisions I've made.'
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Im not sure I agree here. PGA Tour ratings are still where they always were. Tiger is going to play 8 or so events this year. I think they might be in a pretty good spot to weather the storm. I’m guessing there is some TV money coming into the coffers as well. I don’t think they ever merge with LIV unless LIV continues to struggle with revenue and overpays for the merger. Entirely possible scenario given they’ve done nothing but overpay so far.
The TV deal is the biggest contributor. It was done in 2020 and a 9yr contract IIRC. They didn't disclose $$ but based on the previous deal it is rumored to be in the $700 million a year range. From my perspective this was all Pre LIV and major names leaving the PGAT. While I tend to agree LIV merging with the PGAT probably won't happen without some serious restructuring to the schedule, I don't think LIV is going away anytime soon.
Those TV deals were based in part by the PGAT of starpower that is no longer present. I think the PGAT can weather the storm, but without LIV they didn't have the views other major sports have. LIV has averaged 200k viewers last year based on limited information released, and the final round last week was over 400k viewers. Pro golf (PGAT or LIV) cannot afford to be fractured and split TV audiences because they will not generate the "eyes" the TV contract expects.
In the end if sponsors keep bailing and tour stops are left to find replacements, it presents another issue from a revenue perspective. I want to the PGAT to turn the corner because I believe pro golf is better with the PGAT around, I just think a lot of this is Jay's doing by not being honest and upfront with the players and the board on the state of the game financially. Also not listening to LIV (or the PGL for that matter) was dumb and ultimately why SSG needed to enter the picture.
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I mean I get the Jay blame but I’m not sure anyone else would have done differently. Also it’s easy in the short run to criticize but if they come out of this with a better org people are going to have to say he held it together and made it work right? Maybe he was shortsighted, that doesn’t mean his decisions wont win out in the long run. We just don’t know what the long run is yet.
100% agree we don't know what the long run is yet. I just think a lot of this "fractured" and needed SSG money would not be a topic if Jay had been more forthright. Granted this is all speculation based on what he has said and what has been leaked. We (the public) have no clue what the backroom stories were or why the hesitations intially with PIF and their $$.
I get the human rights thing and all the 9/11 issues, but I still say take a step back and look at what you consume daily, PIF money from that fund is everywhere in the world economy. Not much you can buy/consume that PIF isn't involved in. So that was posturing imo and trying to save face and maybe hide the true financial state. I guess my point is if the PGAT was so solid financially when all this PIF mess started a simple "We are the PGAT and we don't need anyone's investment to keep our players and partners happy". That didn't happen so it bore the armchair qb's (myself included) to guess on why and where we are going.
PGA tour was going to need money either way. It was a non profit going against pretty much unlimited money. PGA was going to lose players to money regardless of what they did. Do I think Jay handled everything well? No. But I really don’t see another leader doing much better. Jay didn’t simply concede. He tried to match the money through elevated events and trying to get more sponsors which was always going to be impossible when again talking about a group that burns money for fun. Could Jay be more honest? Sure. But that wouldn’t change the result. The same players were gonna walk regardless.
As far as a merger happening this idea that it will fix everything isn’t true. Sure maybe LIV folks might be happy but a vast majority have been turned off by the whole situation and are obviously not invested in LIV. A merger is gonna turn off a certain audiences for good. Nevermind you can’t just get away from LIV’s image of trying to be the fun league. DJ the other day said he hadn’t practiced all winter. Quite simply that doesn’t scream competitive. Golf fans want to see players working hard not publicly acknowledging that don’t even put the work in. I’m not saying every LIV player is not putting the work in but comments by various players definitely creates the image that it’s just a golf party with no pressure. Fans don’t want that. Atleast not major golf fans. It’s fine for that side of golf to exist as we see with Phoenix with a party atmosphere (Though WMO has plenty of pressure.) but golf fans don’t want to see no pressure golf week after week.
(As far as what PIF has its hand in people can’t control that. Same way if I go for gas today I can’t select where my gas comes from at the pump. As far as the golfers they know where that money is coming from and while obviously can understand why some took it quite simply some didn’t need it or made absolutely ridiculous out of touch statements why they took it like DJ saying he wasn’t rich enough and worried he’d have to play golf forever to support his lifestyle.)
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I definitely agree on the politics stuff. Anytime you have to appeal to something outside of the issue you’re probably making a bad argument. This was about money from the get go. Should have kept it business related instead of using politics to appeal to emotions. But in the long run may have been a shrewd move to agree to the merger and get the lawsuits out of court and then find a more palatable partner. It definitely isn’t fan friendly in the long run for the sport to remain fractured but maybe in the long run he did do right by the players that stuck around and golfers who will enter the sport in the future. Again lots of big questions out there but seems like the Tour is back on solid ish ground and has a chance to move on in a new format. LIV probably has a great chance to become the international product as well. Maybe the Ryder Cup becomes PGA verses LIV??? Would be a lot of fun IMO.
The other part of this is where the DPWT sits in all of this. They lost their commissioner and from I gather, are not part of the SSG $$ that is coming in. Right now a great compromise would be to let PIF acquire/run DPWT, that gives the LIV guys an avenue for OWGR points and the PGAT stays in the hands of the current board and SSG.
That sounds all too simple and probably wont work, but at this point that makes the most sense.
jdlive
Well-known member
I was speaking to the larger point that the implication that "everything's been great with the PIF's involvement in women's pro golf" may not be completely true.
If it was just about checking receipts. then my bad.
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Jon, Bryson, and Dustin in the same group tomorrow will be a fun watch.
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Real happy for Joaquin.
LIV Golf's Joaquin Niemann among 3 to get Masters invitations
LIV's Niemann receives special invite to Masters
Augusta National has given special invitations to the Masters to LIV Golf's Joaquin Niemann, European tour rookie of the year Ryo Hisatsune and Thorbjorn Olesen.
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This was the right move. Well done Augusta.Real happy for Joaquin.
LIV Golf's Joaquin Niemann among 3 to get Masters invitations
LIV's Niemann receives special invite to Masters
Augusta National has given special invitations to the Masters to LIV Golf's Joaquin Niemann, European tour rookie of the year Ryo Hisatsune and Thorbjorn Olesen.www.espn.com
Real happy for Joaquin.
LIV Golf's Joaquin Niemann among 3 to get Masters invitations
LIV's Niemann receives special invite to Masters
Augusta National has given special invitations to the Masters to LIV Golf's Joaquin Niemann, European tour rookie of the year Ryo Hisatsune and Thorbjorn Olesen.
This is fine, it's a good step....but they mention it's mostly because he played non-LIV events to try to earn OGWR points. The article highlights that Talor Gooch who won multiple LIV events last season did not receive one.
I don't see any major still putting a lot of stock in the OGWR as a good thing.
With the roster LIV has now they should be getting a small number of exemptions into every major IMO
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I’ve still not seen that quote from DJ, do you have it handy?
He literally said it two weekends ago after a top finish. He was asked about his event preparation and he said he hadn’t picked up a club in 3-4 months and doesn’t bother practicing.