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Titleist responds to the USGA's Distance Insights Report

I am inclined to agree with Titleist's opinion.
 
LICC said:
Agreed, but the fact still remains that the pros play a different game than the rest of us when it comes to the courses. So if they also have to play slightly different clubs it is not a big problem. Can you imagine if Major League Baseball played with aluminum bats? The average scores would go from 5-3 to 10-8.
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Would that be so bad?
 
TheDoctor said:
No, what I am saying is that they alter the course conditions for when a tournament comes around - grow the rough thicker, let it grow in to the fairways at distances that the pros are hitting to put a premium on accuracy

Then once the tournament is over, cut the rough back, make it thinner for the general public to make it 'easier' again

If they were to do that, nobody would have to worry about producing new conforming clubs/balls
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It really is that simple
 
LICC said:
It actually isn’t that simple to grow rough into the fairways. Different grasses, irrigation lines, etc
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Or maybe you simply stop mowing the grass already growing in those specific spots. If there really is some sort of distance problem and IMO there isn't, I can't imagine how a massive equipment bifurcation scheme is somehow simpler than letting the grass grow when the tour rolls through. A scheme would impart so much collateral impact too.
 
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Daddio said:
Or maybe you simply stop mowing the grass already growing in those specific spots
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Yeah, that'd help, but I think it would take a while to see any difference.
 
Daddio said:
Or maybe you simply stop mowing the grass already growing in those specific spots. If there really is some sort of distance problem and IMO there isn't, I can't imagine how a massive equipment bifurcation scheme is somehow simpler than letting the grass grow when the tour rolls through. A scheme would impart so much collateral impact too.
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Because it isn’t that simple at all. Fairways at Tour courses often have different grasses than the rough. Look what they had to do at Shinnecock to narrow some of the fairways. It was a massive project to replace grasses.
 
So I'm coming back to the excerpt from Titleist in the OP. I agree with what was stated. In fact, we've seen the USGA make the same mistake before. Remember the wedge groove reports? They too focused almost wholly on what was happening with the pros with little regard to any other factors. They used this to justify rolling back wedge grooves for all of us, though on different timelines.

BTW, the rollback on wedge grooves did not achieve the desired result. In the very first year after they implemented the change pro golfers just adjusted and the pros stats with wedge shots were indistinguishable from before the groove change. But it did cost club manufacturers and golfers a ton of money to redesign, retool, and replace clubs.
 
Many points of view on this topic squarely rest on equipment as the reason these guys are longer today from yester-year and I agree.....technology and equipment changes in the past 20 yrs are part of this equation, but are not the entire equation. Nobody can dispute that today's tour golfers are MUCH, MUCH better athletes top to bottom than those 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago. This is the same in absolutely every sport! Having just watched some of the highlights from the anniversary of the Miracle on Ice from 40 years ago, its not the same game being played today. The same is true about Football, baseball, basketball..... baseball is making dimensions of new stadiums smaller, basketball is moving the 3pt line back to encourage more player movement and higher scoring, football is designed for offense top to bottom with the rules and these athletes from all these sports are bigger, stronger, faster than their contemporaries from years past.

These athletes train, work and play year round..... That fact has as much to do with gains in distance and the skills of today's players as the equipment does. Whatever the USGA throws up as an effort to curb distance from an equipment standpoint will just become a bump in the road as technology will always find a work around in time.
 
As the undisputed market leader of course Titleist is going to be against this. However if I'm a Bridgestone etc. this would create a potential disruption point in the market that they could gain from. So interesting if some of the other manufacturers are going to take a different stance on this.

It's true that there are a few venues that can still hold their own against the longest hitters but those are typically architectural "gems" and is not going to be the norm. I don't mind the long hitters at all but agree with the argument that it is a skill that is unproportionally favored. Player's could hit it long before as well but the driver was not the most comfortable club to hit.

I wouldn't be against a ball roll-back if that's coming, prob around 5-6% range I would guess. I'm pretty sure the iron byrons at the test facilities are already hitting these balls today, just in case...I do think that a smarter route to take would be to introduce a test phase where you would first try other means, growing rough, watering fairways, etc. before going down the equipment / ball route as that will be a lot more painful.
 
Stemmy66 said:
Many points of view on this topic squarely rest on equipment as the reason these guys are longer today from yester-year and I agree.....technology and equipment changes in the past 20 yrs are part of this equation, but are not the entire equation. Nobody can dispute that today's tour golfers are MUCH, MUCH better athletes top to bottom than those 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago. This is the same in absolutely every sport! Having just watched some of the highlights from the anniversary of the Miracle on Ice from 40 years ago, its not the same game being played today. The same is true about Football, baseball, basketball..... baseball is making dimensions of new stadiums smaller, basketball is moving the 3pt line back to encourage more player movement and higher scoring, football is designed for offense top to bottom with the rules and these athletes from all these sports are bigger, stronger, faster than their contemporaries from years past.

These athletes train, work and play year round..... That fact has as much to do with gains in distance and the skills of today's players as the equipment does. Whatever the USGA throws up as an effort to curb distance from an equipment standpoint will just become a bump in the road as technology will always find a work around in time.
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Human beings have not evolved into superior athletes in 20-30 years. It's the equipment.
 
LICC said:
What is wrong with bifurcation?
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From a sales perspective, it could hurt manufacturers. Badly. Amateurs by and play what the pros play because it gives off the feeling that you're playing the best and most advanced equipment. True or not, marketing can't be denied. Give the pros lesser equipment and it breaks the formula. Sales could dip. Just my thoughts.
 
TheDoctor said:
No, what I am saying is that they alter the course conditions for when a tournament comes around - grow the rough thicker, let it grow in to the fairways at distances that the pros are hitting to put a premium on accuracy

Then once the tournament is over, cut the rough back, make it thinner for the general public to make it 'easier' again

If they were to do that, nobody would have to worry about producing new conforming clubs/balls
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So easy, so sensible, so doomed to being ignored.
 
LICC said:
Because it isn’t that simple at all. Fairways at Tour courses often have different grasses than the rough. Look what they had to do at Shinnecock to narrow some of the fairways. It was a massive project to replace grasses.
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So don't mow the fairways that tight. Easy.
 
dacatalyst41 said:
From a sales perspective, it could hurt manufacturers. Badly. Amateurs by and play what the pros play because it gives off the feeling that you're playing the best and most advanced equipment. True or not, marketing can't be denied. Give the pros lesser equipment and it breaks the formula. Sales could dip. Just my thoughts.
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Do amateurs buy and play the exact same equipment the pros play, or just the same brands? No pro is playing the game improvement irons that most recreational golfers play.
 
I don't think any of these companies that have invested in R&D to make clubs longer and more forgiving would take a stance opposite of this. They understand the consumer market and are not going to shoot themselves in the foot.
 
Stemmy66 said:
Oh, okay.... it must be the shoes Mars....
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Actually yes. In track and field, a study was done analyzing Jesse Owens and Usain Bolt. Bolt had far superior shoes and track surface to run on. They measured Owens' speed based on old films and made scientific adjustments and found that he was basically running the same times as Bolt if he were using today's equipment and running on today's tracks.
 
LICC said:
Actually yes. In track and field, a study was done analyzing Jesse Owens and Usain Bolt. Bolt had far superior shoes and track surface to run on. They measured Owens' speed based on old films and made scientific adjustments and found that he was basically running the same times as Bolt if he were using today's equipment and running on today's tracks.
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Equipment, yes has improved the game, but Pros are pros, they will find the center if swinging a hickory stick from 100 yrs ago and even if they hit a rock, it will go farther than what you or I hit it the ball..... that's just a fact. It is also undeniable that golfers, hell, humans.... along with other world class athletes are just flat out bigger, stronger, faster OVERALL.... there are exceptions that prove the rule, for sure, but all these guys are working out, eating differently, etc., etc., that too has impacted how far these guys hit the ball..... See Bryson DeChambeau as the latest to embrace stronger is longer philosophy..... along with course conditions, trampoline like fairways ...... See World Golf Championship in Mexico..... make the ball go farther.... rolling back equipment is not the answer, technology will evolve and find new pathways period.
 
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Stemmy66 said:
Equipment, yes has improved the game, but Pros are pros, they will find the center if swinging a hickory stick from 100 yrs ago and even if they hit a rock, it will go farther than what you or I hit it the ball..... that's just a fact. It is also undeniable that golfers, hell, humans.... along with other world class athletes are just flat out bigger, stronger, faster OVERALL.... there are exceptions that prove the rule, for sure, but all these guys are working out, eating differently, etc., etc., that too has impacted how far these guys hit the ball..... See Bryson DeChambeau as the latest to embrace stronger is longer philosophy..... along with course conditions, trampoline like fairways ...... See World Golf Championship in Mexico..... make the ball go farther.... rolling back equipment is not the answer, technology will evolve and find new pathways period.
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Leave out Bryson for now because it is too soon to tell- name me one Tour player who significantly increased distance from strength training. See Scott Stallings- tremendous physical change from fitness training- zero effect on driving distance.

It is the equipment behind almost all the distance gains.
 
LICC said:
Do amateurs buy and play the exact same equipment the pros play, or just the same brands? No pro is playing the game improvement irons that most recreational golfers play.
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Drivers, fairways, hybrids, wedges, putters, balls and yes guys buy the irons the pros play. Should they? Probably not but there are people that do.
 
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