Who's going to putt with flag in ???

[phoffer]

Kevin Chappel said on the foreplay pod that the rule will be changed by the end of the year. Reverting back to old rule due to the flagstick left in being to big an advantage. I believe Bryson and some others have said the same.

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Changing for tour or for RoG? Hope it's just PGA

 

[The Milk Man]

Changing for tour or for RoG? Hope it's just PGA

ROG

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[greg19]

When i'm putting I just feel that the hole is closer with the pin in and would rather putt with it in on short putts

 

[khaos288]

Lost my first birdie to the flag stick yesterday. Actually, it was just a long putt, so I didn't think about pulling the flag, but perfect pace had it coming right in the left side. The wind was blowing right to left, and the ball bounced right off.

Going to have to think about it more now I guess.

 

[rollin]

One other issue is that the pins are not always completely centered the way they would be for a tour event. I play at a public course and the cups are often not synced level like they would be in a professional event. Another issue that has to be factored in is comfort level. If more confident with the pin out, you st and a better chance at making a more comfortable stroke IMO.

fair point but in all honesty we humans do become quite use to something rather quickly after an initial break in period. Thats usually quicker than we think imo. I believe most people will get use to the pin in (providing they play that way) within a relatively short time span. We already hit practice greens (at least most of us) with the little flags and are use to that. To be fair I will add that I understand when it comes to especially putting things can get in peoples heads rather easily. Hence imo why there has always been problematic slow greens flow for like ever. But once something is done differently even just for a little while it becomes routine rather quickly. To bad my golf swing wont find that routineness...lol but that's another story

 

[rollin]

Lost my first birdie to the flag stick yesterday. Actually, it was just a long putt, so I didn't think about pulling the flag, but perfect pace had it coming right in the left side. The wind was blowing right to left, and the ball bounced right off.

Going to have to think about it more now I guess.

I can only mention the same thing (quoted below) that I mentioned to Sox-Fan. I can even add (to your putt situation) that the study results indicated the bent flag actually increased the odds of making the putts more than a straight one did. Except for one bent so much towards the ball that the ball couldn't fit between the pin and edge of the hole. So with your flag bent you actually had a greater chance of the pin helping you even more so than the greater chance you already had if it was straight vs not in. And as said below the misses via going over,lipping out, etc....whatever the case are staying closer to the hole making for a shorter comebacker. These are just the facts.

and you've never had a putt from 25ft appearing to be normal speed that went over or lipped out or whatever else? The facts of the study/ies indicate that not only did you had a better chance of making it but likely ended up closer to the hole for second putt than you might have with the pin out. But of course those facts will be completely ignored and the bird miss was due to the pin. Unless you play with thicker than normal pins or it was windy enough to bend the pin significantly your miss was (via the odds) most likely a miss with the pin out in some other fashion and also further from the hole after the miss.

 

[rollin]

Kevin Chappel said on the foreplay pod that the rule will be changed by the end of the year. Reverting back to old rule due to the flagstick left in being to big an advantage. I believe Bryson and some others have said the same.

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Ive heard/read that as well a few times. Just that fact alone should be enough to convince people it actually is an advantage even if minor.


problem is there is no way to prove a pin helps or hurts on one single putt other than what pelz and this recent youtube video experiment resulted in. Reason no one can prove it is that you just don't know what the ball would have done if the pin was out on a given specific putt. All we can do is know that through thousands of balls tested (and that's a very large sum) it was determined that it helps more than hurts. Basically that says to me that for every time it hurt there are more times than that in which it helps. But when it comes to pro golf I don't see it as an advantage as long everyone has the same option. I mean how can something be an unfair advantage if everyone can do it? A player choses not to do it cannot complain at all that the others have an advantage because that player can also do it.

Even if the tour through time begins to see a putts made increase with the pin in that's measurable enough to be note worthy its still not unfair advantage to anyone imo because they can all do the same thing.

 

[JMB3]

Molinari did his own study, finding that "flag in" did not help with all putts. Essentially, his testing revealed that (a) for slow putts, it made no difference if flag was pulled, (b) for medium putts, flag out was better than in, and (c) for fast putts, flag in was better. Not sure how his testing differed from those performed by Pelz, etc., but interesting he found a different outcome.

For what it's worth, a conclusion drawn from testing is rarely an "established fact." Change (even slightly) or add a variable and you can completely change the conclusion (coming from a nerd who did a bunch of linear regression analysis in college), as Molinari's own testing shows. All of these "studies," moreover, cannot account for the greatest variable of them all: The individual golfer. So much of the short game and putting is about feel and visualization. If leaving the flag in does not suit your eye, I doubt you will make more putts with it in, simply because you've reduced your confidence level before you even made your stroke (similarly, sometimes when I pull the pin on a chip, it's almost like I'm sending myself a message: You're going to make this). And if you're already a good putter, why mess with a good thing?

But the RoG now let you do it either way, which I think is a good thing. Just find what works best for you.

 

[rollin]

Molinari did his own study, finding that "flag in" did not help with all putts. Essentially, his testing revealed that (a) for slow putts, it made no difference if flag was pulled, (b) for medium putts, flag out was better than in, and (c) for fast putts, flag in was better. Not sure how his testing differed from those performed by Pelz, etc., but interesting he found a different outcome.

For what it's worth, a conclusion drawn from testing is rarely an "established fact." Change (even slightly) or add a variable and you can completely change the conclusion (coming from a nerd who did a bunch of linear regression analysis in college), as Molinari's own testing shows. All of these "studies," moreover, cannot account for the greatest variable of them all: The individual golfer. So much of the short game and putting is about feel and visualization. If leaving the flag in does not suit your eye, I doubt you will make more putts with it in, simply because you've reduced your confidence level before you even made your stroke (similarly, sometimes when I pull the pin on a chip, it's almost like I'm sending myself a message: You're going to make this). And if you're already a good putter, why mess with a good thing?

But the RoG now let you do it either way, which I think is a good thing. Just find what works best for you.

a tad of it certainly contradicting results but to that I would add that pelz's study vs Molinari is 3oo putts vs thousands of them. Certainly with such close differences one needs to venture into the land of large numbers sampling before concluding something. We can play a slot machine in a casino and although its programmed to payback about 88 to 97 percent (a long term 3 to 12% losing proposition) we can still hit it as a winner for periods of time. I believe what moilinari found but I have to go with the much larger sample experiment (much larger sample, not even close) with the thousands of golf balls vs the much shorter small relatively speaking a few hundred ball experiment. Not only were there thousands of balls via Pelz but also 5 (not 3) different entrance points as well as another thousand physically putted on top of all that.

The slot machine of the pin being pulled will lose long term vs the one staying in. That's what the much larger sample experiment had proven. Its simply just a far greater in-depth much longer experiment which resulted the way it did. Plus other experiments have also proven more consistent with the pelz results. I take the Moilinari experiment to be too small a sample like winning that slot machine for a specific visit but ultimately losing at it long term. I feel before one can make claims that would contradict such an intense huge sample experiment, they should at least venture into the same world of the long intense significantly larger sample. A few hundred balls to 3 areas of the cup says little to nothing when you think about the thousands that were hit to 5 areas and another thousand physically putted in the other experiment.

Sorry Molinari but not nearly enough at all was done to overturn pelz study imo . But kudos to your family name on the Sambuca that goes nicely in or with my espresso

 

[OGputtnfool]

and that on top of Pelz's old study which took things far greater than that, still people are going to insist on pulling it.


I think the biggest thing (which shouldn't matter at all) yet will be what change more peoples minds is going to be "if" enough pros start doing it. Problem is soon as one hits a pole and it doesn't drop they are most likely going to blame the pin for it even though the reality is the putt would probably not went in anyway and likely would have ended up further from the hole as well. But its not going to matter because many are going to overlook that "established fact" and still blame the pin. We already had many people who said soon as one hits a pin and doesn't drop they will always be pulling it. Hence exactly what Im talking about and Imo people need to open their mind to what the facts actually suggest.

On top of that greater chance of sinking balls we also have the potential here for a better general flow to the game overall. That's a positive in itself even if the ball studies indicated it made no difference. Of course they indicate it does help and so Imo its a win/win to leave it be.

I agree with all of that except, facts don't suggest anything. Facts prove.

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[dthogey]

I played my dad's private course today with 2 other members, the flag was left in 90%of all putts

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[rollin]

I played my dad's private course today with 2 other members, the flag was left in 90%of all putts

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I curiously ask....what reasons were the other 10% flag out for?

 

[dthogey]

I curiously ask....what reasons were the other 10% flag out for?

No real good reason. Probably just out of habit. It happened on the 1st few holes and I think those guys were thinking that everybody would want the flag out. After discussing it, everybody just left it in

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[CobraX51]

Alright so I played Saturday with a guy who is a scratch golfer. Awesome golf swing.

Every single putt he left the flag in. He said he uses the flag as a backstop and he can be more aggressive with putts.

 

[rollin]

Alright so I played Saturday with a guy who is a scratch golfer. Awesome golf swing.

Every single putt he left the flag in. He said he uses the flag as a backstop and he can be more aggressive with putts.

fwiw I dont think id be more aggressive per say cause id still worry about over shooting too far via missing the hole or the pin. But i do think Id be more confident which would lead to firmer putts (for lack of a better term).

 

[Molten]

I'm leaning toward pin always in. I really want to test it out and feel confident with the pin in.

 

[CobraX51]

fwiw I dont think id be more aggressive per say cause id still worry about over shooting too far via missing the hole or the pin. But i do think Id be more confident which would lead to firmer putts (for lack of a better term).

I hear you man. To him he sees the hole better, aiming for the stick. Aim small miss small I guess. 3 birdies in 9 doesn’t hurt I guess haha.


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[slimjim32]

I figured I would just because I can. In the few rounds and practice games I have played, I've probably left the flag in 50% of the time. I've seen the research on it: how slow speed makes no difference, medium speed it should be taken out, and high speed it should be left in; but I don't necessarily follow it. It boils down to convenience at the time right now, honestly.

One of the women at my club used to play on the LPGA, and I saw her playing and she would put the flagstick in every time. Not sure if she still does it, but the first week of the new year when I saw her a handful of times she did.

 

[rollin]

I figured I would just because I can. In the few rounds and practice games I have played, I've probably left the flag in 50% of the time. I've seen the research on it: how slow speed makes no difference, medium speed it should be taken out, and high speed it should be left in; but I don't necessarily follow it. It boils down to convenience at the time right now, honestly.

One of the women at my club used to play on the LPGA, and I saw her playing and she would put the flagstick in every time. Not sure if she still does it, but the first week of the new year when I saw her a handful of times she did.

the study with the largest sample of them all says leave it in all the time.

 

[DonJuan]

Just saw a MyGolfSpy vid on YouTube and they did a little testing. Conclusion: leave it in.

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[sposey013168]

I honestly don’t care either way. If the group I am playing wants to leave it in so be it, if they to play with it out so be it.
I think when it’s said and done it will balance out, flag will help some hot putts but it could also knock some not center of the flag putts out.
I have peace and love on this issue


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[WMac19]

Just saw a MyGolfSpy vid on YouTube and they did a little testing. Conclusion: leave it in.

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Saw that too. Compelling enough in my book.

 

[fuffle master]

Who's going to putt with flag in ???

Just saw a MyGolfSpy vid on YouTube and they did a little testing. Conclusion: leave it in.

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I believe the data is conclusive; leaving the flagstick in will help more putts be made. Here are the photos from that video:

The only argument I can see that still holds water is just personal preference. Some golfers will just be thrown off, either visually or mentally, by leaving the flagstick in during their putts. I think most of us are the proverbial saying “creature of habits.” We feel comfortable in situations we are used to and don’t like change. When someone is more comfortable, I can see the argument they putt better flagstick out. Goes against the science, but to them it’s the comfort that is better for an individual.

Myself, being a math data guy, I will leave the flagstick in. I can use all the help I can get.


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[BigDill]

I'm leaning toward pin always in. I really want to test it out and feel confident with the pin in.

Do it and don’t think twice. I have found that leaving the pin in helps me aim and better read uphill elevation. I know that it seems odd putting with an object in the cup, but I have yet to encounter a pin that didn’t leave ample room for the ball to fall in.

 

[DonJuan]

I believe the data is conclusive; leaving the flagstick in will help more putts be made. Here are the photos from that video:

The only argument I can see that still holds water is just personal preference. Some golfers will just be thrown off, either visually or mentally, by leaving the flagstick in during their putts. I think most of us are the proverbial saying “creature of habits.” We feel comfortable in situations we are used to and don’t like change. When someone is more comfortable, I can see the argument they putt better flagstick out. Goes against the science, but to them it’s the comfort that is better for an individual.

Myself, being a math data guy, I will leave the flagstick in. I can use all the help I can get.


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I agree. That's the only reason people would take it out. I've learned that golfers are fairly rigid people when it comes to their game. I'm probably not rigid enough.

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