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Is modern instruction killing the game?

blugold said:
I don't think they are getting great training. I think they are getting expensive training. Those are not the same thing.
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I'd agree with that. But you would think with the amount of money they pay for a trainer they would get exactly what they need/want. If that's not the case that's on them not doing their due diligence.
 
It's hard to say if the modern golf swing is really to blame for all the back injuries - haven't all golfing generations had their share of back injuries? It might just feel more prevalent now because guys play so many tournaments, and when someone WDs it's so well publicized. Think of all these up and coming players essentially playing every week of the year, with virtually no off season.
 
I’ve watched many golf videos and outside of a few instructors most teach pretty much the same thing just with different ways to accomplish it. Modern instruction imo has evolved as technology in clubs, launch monitors and ball have changed as well as fitness becoming more part of the game.

George Gankas teaches a little bit of weight on the lead side which many would call a reverse pivot but his method still has the golfer getting back to a balanced impact position and his players are some of the elite amateurs and a few pros.
 
Justine Rose had back issue under lead and brewer. It’s. It’s not the teaching or teacher. Tiger had back issues with Haney an old school teacher. Mahan hurt his back on the couch. Greg Norman has a bad back as does Freddie couples.

Modern teaching is making winners out of college.
 
I don't think so, with a couple of exceptions. Golfers are currently taught long swings before they have a lot of muscle. Muscle is the only thing in the body that is made to stretch as injury prevention. It's what protects you from over-rotation that causes damage to ligaments, tendons, cartilage and bones. So a golfer gets taught a huge, fast swing, long before he gets muscle and grows into his "man-body." Now his muscles are pulling on the sinew that used to be his stopping points, which exacerbates injuries -- I think Rory McIlroy is probably a good example of this.

I don't think the "modern swing" is bad for golf, but I think there are elements of it that you can push to the point of injury pretty easily by learning it before you've made yourself a more generalized athlete. I think that's also part of making kids "one-sport" athletes at something like golf, then wondering how on earth they're developing the equivalent of repetitive stress injuries to their knees and backs.
 
I do think several methodologies are harder on the body. Stack-n-tilt and the whole "create a coil by resisting your lower body with your upper body" movement in particular. Both of which from my understanding are key elements of Sean Foley's teaching.

I do think if one pays attention to anatomy, there are methods of swinging which do not create as much strain on the back, such as allowing the lead heal to come off the ground to allow for a deeper shoulder turn.

That said, when you swing a golf club as much as PGA tour pros do, there can be injury no matter what. Having a swing that tries to use your anatomy as effectively as possible will diminish your chances of injury however.
 
Id like to know why it is that something always has to be "killing" the game?
But more seriously, I find some interesting reads and opinions in this thread.
 
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rollin said:
Id like to know why it is that something always has to be "killing" the game?.
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Cloudy skies today.....must be killing the game. How can we fix it?
 
fitz_22 said:
The counterpoint to that is if you have watched any Shawn Clement videos on Youtube. It might not be for everybody but it changed my swing and approach to the game. Swinging free and easy using basic physics of what the body is capable of and inherently knows what to do. Has nothing to do with positions, angles, planes, etc.

I think amateurs trying to replicate the "modern swing" absolutely puts the body in positions that are not natural, in turn, causing injuries.
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Here is the topic of conversation. Watch Golf Channel's teaching programs. Martin Hall isn't as bad as most but still he teaches that you get into a "position", that your arms get into a "position"... All of the rest of the swing systems are the same. Get into positions to be able to swing the club into the proper single plane, 2 plane position, vertical position etc. I contend that the body is injured mainly by trying to twist the torso against the legs and hips.
 
CobraX51 said:
Spieth? ZJohnson? Na? Oosthuisen? Walker? Charl? Duff? Cabrea-Bello? BillyHo? Stenson? Kisner? I can't think of any more at the moment but none of these guys are known as bombers and they compete just fine week in and week out.

Of those names Spieth has increased his driver distance, that I know of, and good for him, but I disagree with the notion overall.
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Keep an eye on these pros and see how long it is before they start having problems. I'm not saying that the modern swing doesn't have spectacular results. It does. What I'm saying is that it results in damage to the players body, particularly the back, and that it is far more complicated to learn than it needs to be. I'm sure everyone would agree there are a lot of golfers that have bad backs. WHY? I think it's technique. I have arrived at this conclusion after years of studying this game trying to figure out how I can continue to play.

Here's what I'm dealing with, old age, arthritis in my spine and feet, fused L4 & L5 vertebrae, replaced right knee, degenerative disc disease. That's enough for now. I can not play golf using the modern technique.

Someone mentioned Shawn Clement, his teaching of a free and natural swing is new. If you look at his teaching from 2 years ago it is position, position, position.
 
Double Eagle said:
Here is the topic of conversation. Watch Golf Channel's teaching programs. Martin Hall isn't as bad as most but still he teaches that you get into a "position", that your arms get into a "position"... All of the rest of the swing systems are the same. Get into positions to be able to swing the club into the proper single plane, 2 plane position, vertical position etc. I contend that the body is injured mainly by trying to twist the torso against the legs and hips.
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Old school teachers used to just teach address technique. Once a player learned grip-posture-alignment then his naturally efficient swing was born from same.
I do not believe there is any need or justification for teaching or learning "in swing positions".
 
Double Eagle said:
Someone mentioned Shawn Clement, his teaching of a free and natural swing is new. If you look at his teaching from 2 years ago it is position, position, position.
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Absolutely incorrect.
 
Paladin said:
I don't think so, with a couple of exceptions. Golfers are currently taught long swings before they have a lot of muscle. Muscle is the only thing in the body that is made to stretch as injury prevention. It's what protects you from over-rotation that causes damage to ligaments, tendons, cartilage and bones. So a golfer gets taught a huge, fast swing, long before he gets muscle and grows into his "man-body." Now his muscles are pulling on the sinew that used to be his stopping points, which exacerbates injuries -- I think Rory McIlroy is probably a good example of this.

I don't think the "modern swing" is bad for golf, but I think there are elements of it that you can push to the point of injury pretty easily by learning it before you've made yourself a more generalized athlete. I think that's also part of making kids "one-sport" athletes at something like golf, then wondering how on earth they're developing the equivalent of repetitive stress injuries to their knees and backs.
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Bingo! The pro is the example.

Here's a question. How many recreational golfers watch golf on TV? Nearly all of them. What do the commentators talk about? Occasionally, they talk about the "positions" the player gets into. They analyze the swing. They talk about hips resisting the torso to store energy (BS). How many recreational golfers attempt some parts of what they hear? I'd say a lot of them. What results do they have? If they're like me probably a screaming slice out of bounds, or some other equally disastrous shot.
 
arydolphin said:
This discussion needs to be based on whether we are talking about professional golf or golf as a whole.

If it's golf as a whole, modern instruction isn't killing the game because the large majority of golfers never get formal instruction at all, and even for the ones that do get instructions, very few of them are going to get taught the "modern" swing because getting trained to hit the ball more solidly (aka middle of the clubface) is going to result in more distance than making a bunch of swing changes just to get 5 mph more club head speed.

If it's only professional golf that you are speaking of, then maybe you could say that there are more injuries nowadays with the club head speeds being faster overall than they were 10-20 years ago. But the "modern" swing isn't the only way to swing the golf club, and there are plenty of guys that are top players that don't swing that way.
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Let me clarify something. My contention is that modern teaching is killing the game for amateurs. The pro situation is the example of the results of modern teaching. Classic swing instruction is from 60 years ago. Modern swing technique started to be widespread about 1990.

I completely disagree with this statement (very few of them are going to get taught the "modern" swing) This is exactly what they teach. As a result the student hits a few good shots while with the instructor but when on their own cannot duplicate the success because of the difficulty of what is being taught.

Golf is a simple game of hitting a stationary ball using a swing that each individual can develop on their own. After they have developed the skill of swinging the club head in a free and easy manner with concentration on the awareness of the weight of the club head and become proficient at swinging it over a point on the ground with a smooth, fast swing they then hit the ball using their natural hand eye coordination. After developing this particular skill (takes about an hour) they can be successful often enough to develop an enjoyable game in a relatively short period of time. My definition of an enjoyable game is a score from high 70's to mid 80's.

Now, how far can you take this body friendly swing? Just as far as you want. Let's use my game for example. You already know my physical limitations. Using this swing my average drive is around 270 with drives over 300 yds seen a couple of times a round. My scores are mid 80's to high 70's. I usually play 3-4 times a week and I walk the course. Doesn't this provide the evidence of my position?
 
Double Eagle said:
Keep an eye on these pros and see how long it is before they start having problems. I'm not saying that the modern swing doesn't have spectacular results. It does. What I'm saying is that it results in damage to the players body, particularly the back, and that it is far more complicated to learn than it needs to be. I'm sure everyone would agree there are a lot of golfers that have bad backs. WHY? I think it's technique. I have arrived at this conclusion after years of studying this game trying to figure out how I can continue to play.

Here's what I'm dealing with, old age, arthritis in my spine and feet, fused L4 & L5 vertebrae, replaced right knee, degenerative disc disease. That's enough for now. I can not play golf using the modern technique.

Someone mentioned Shawn Clement, his teaching of a free and natural swing is new. If you look at his teaching from 2 years ago it is position, position, position.
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And what about all the hip injuries/replabent th older guys are having from the old school swings. Chuck Wuntin talks about this as well as back injuries.
 
wadesworld said:
I do think several methodologies are harder on the body. Stack-n-tilt and the whole "create a coil by resisting your lower body with your upper body" movement in particular. Both of which from my understanding are key elements of Sean Foley's teaching.

I do think if one pays attention to anatomy, there are methods of swinging which do not create as much strain on the back, such as allowing the lead heal to come off the ground to allow for a deeper shoulder turn.

That said, when you swing a golf club as much as PGA tour pros do, there can be injury no matter what. Having a swing that tries to use your anatomy as effectively as possible will diminish your chances of injury however.
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I agree completely. The instructors I mentioned, Ron Sisson in particular, teach a body friendly swing. Watch this 10 min. video and pay attention to the sound the ball makes when the brand new student hits it. You may recognize yourself. :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om1uMvCKir8
 
Paladin said:
I don't think so, with a couple of exceptions. Golfers are currently taught long swings before they have a lot of muscle. Muscle is the only thing in the body that is made to stretch as injury prevention. It's what protects you from over-rotation that causes damage to ligaments, tendons, cartilage and bones. So a golfer gets taught a huge, fast swing, long before he gets muscle and grows into his "man-body." Now his muscles are pulling on the sinew that used to be his stopping points, which exacerbates injuries -- I think Rory McIlroy is probably a good example of this.

I don't think the "modern swing" is bad for golf, but I think there are elements of it that you can push to the point of injury pretty easily by learning it before you've made yourself a more generalized athlete. I think that's also part of making kids "one-sport" athletes at something like golf, then wondering how on earth they're developing the equivalent of repetitive stress injuries to their knees and backs.
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I respectfully disagree. Nothing wrong with a long fast swing. Problems for Rory came because he packed on a bunch of muscle and was stronger and creating more force then his body can handle. Bubba has a super long golf swing and that isn't the problem. If Bubba killed it in the gym and packed on a ton of muscle, he would probably increase his chances of getting injured. The stronger you are, the more force you can generate, the more pressure you put on your body.
One thing people haven't mentioned is the modern lack of lower body movement. Going back to Bubba I feel like he has an old school swing by lifting his front foot's heal off the ground and getting that big hip turn. With the modern swing you see a lot of guys keeping that front foot planted through out the back swing. Not sure if that has contributed to back injuries.
 
Being an ambulatory biped is a pain on the sacrum.
 
NewGlfr said:
I don't think modern instruction is killing the game at all. I think it's more a matter of finding an instructor that meets your needs and has a way to get that instruction across to you in a way you can understand and advance with.

My daughter's instructors is amazing with teaching her. Just enough instruction to get a desired result, but not enough that her head is spinning when she is done with her lesson.

Teaching is an art. Some people are excellent at it, others not so much. And the student is very individual in their needs as well. A good teacher will be sensitive to that and adjust accordingly.
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... Great post! I was at odds with the Illinois PGA when I taught full time as a non member head professional because they believed in teaching a "proper swing with sound fundamentals." For the majority of students, a teachers job is to help them get better at what they already do. Teaching a 45 yr old business man looking to not embarrass himself in some work related golf opportunities that has an over the top 40 yd weak slice, my job was to help him learn to hit a 15 yd controlled fade with a less over the top move. Teaching him to use his lower body to start the swing and drop the club to the inside isn't gonna work for 99% of those players.

... Sometimes people forget how non intuitive golf really is. Common sense tells you that you need to scoop the ball to hit high shots when the exact opposite is true. When hitting the ball far to the right it again makes common sense to sign up more to the left, which of courses causing the ball to travel even further right. When there is wind in your face and the ball does not travel as far as normal common sense ells you that you ned to hit it harder, which adds more spin and lands even shorter.
 
Ft Worth Golfer said:
I respectfully disagree. Nothing wrong with a long fast swing. Problems for Rory came because he packed on a bunch of muscle and was stronger and creating more force then his body can handle. Bubba has a super long golf swing and that isn't the problem. If Bubba killed it in the gym and packed on a ton of muscle, he would probably increase his chances of getting injured. The stronger you are, the more force you can generate, the more pressure you put on your body.
One thing people haven't mentioned is the modern lack of lower body movement. Going back to Bubba I feel like he has an old school swing by lifting his front foot's heal off the ground and getting that big hip turn. With the modern swing you see a lot of guys keeping that front foot planted through out the back swing. Not sure if that has contributed to back injuries.
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The problem is this; how many recreational golfers actually warm up before heading to the first tee? How many recreational golfers know how to warm up? How many recreational golfers do you see trying to hit a 350 yd drive on the 1st tee? Given the amazing amount of odd, or should we say individual, swings I see every time I play I am surprised many are not carried away on a stretcher. You probably think that too at times.

There is a lot wrong with a long, fast swing. How many of our acquaintances have been injured playing golf? How well do they play? Some of them very well. Much better than I am. Yet they seem to be injured a lot. How can you tell? How about the pressure band on the arm to help with pain by the elbow.

When you teach a child to start with a long, fast swing they can get by with it for a while because of their natural flexibility. However, over time their body will break down from the stress. Even with proper physical training an improper use of the body will cause damage.

The old time philosophy of golf was to stay away from the weight room. It would ruin your golfing muscles. I think I read that in Harvey Pennick's Little Red Book, or may be his Little Blue Book. Bubba doesn't hit the weights and from what my search turned up has had one tournament missed due to tweaking his back. As is mentioned in the above quote McIlroy is dealing with back problems. Look at the difference in their swings. Bubba is more old school with his swing technique and hits it a long way. His body type is more loose and flexible so he can over swing the way he does.

We can add to Bubba's example by going back in golf history. Old Tom Morris and Young Tom Morris. Both played into advanced old age. I doubt if they worked out. They most certainly did not have the advantage of the physical treatments of today. What gave them their longevity? Could it have been technique? If you go back and read about the old days you may read what they did to hit the ball just a little farther. They lifted the heel on their front foot a little more. The shoulders and hips turned together much like Bubba turns.
 
emart2173 said:
And what about all the hip injuries/replabent th older guys are having from the old school swings. Chuck Wuntin talks about this as well as back injuries.
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Sorry, Jack was putting his body into a position to put undo stress on his hips. I'm thinking more of the swings in the Bobby Jones era. You haven't gone back far enough.
 
Double Eagle said:
So true, but we endeavor to improve.
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Should be noted, old people, in general, tend to need knee and hip surgery. Regardless if they ever picked up a golf club, ever.

Just because somebody swung a golf club a certain way and needed surgery, does not mean that swinging a golf club a certain way causes surgery. Just from a logical perspective.
 
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