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As a youngster, how were you disciplined?

Matthew said:
So if Johnny jumped off a bridge would you too?
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He was wondering how it even existed. I was just pointing out that it is common practice for the majority of the human population. If you'd like me to explain why they do it and why it can be a good idea, feel free to ask.
 
A belt was the primary tool. Sometimes a piece of baseboard.
 
chicogolf said:
He was wondering how it even existed. I was just pointing out that it is common practice for the majority of the human population. If you'd like me to explain why they do it and why it can be a good idea, feel free to ask.
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Nah, I'm good. Our dogs don't even sleep on our end of the house.
Thanks for offering though.


On second thought, how is it a good idea? Why buy a house with multiple bedrooms when everybody is piled up in mine? Why does an infant get a share of the comfy bed when it's not getting up in the morning to figure out a way to make the house payment?
 
chicogolf said:
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
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chicogolf said:
And this has what to do with spanking?
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You said violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. WW2 was pretty violent according to my history books.



Just joshing with you. I get your point & you're right. (sorta, in a small corner)
 
I was spanked. Our elementary school principal had a custom made wooden paddle named "Sugarboy" that was used when necessary and rarely had to be used twice on the same kid. One should never cross the line from spanking to beating/abuse. A swat or two is one thing, leaving marks and drawing bold is a use plain and simple.
 
My parents either gave me a hiding with their hands or a leather strop that's popular in South Africa. At school we were caned, bent over and smacked on the butt. Minimum was 2, max was 6.
 
I deserved every spanking that I got. Even the ones that left welts for a few days from the belt.
 
I was never beaten with a stick.
 
A) hardly called for
B) not definitively true (maybe in a small %)
 
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I'd really love for this to go away and stop trying to one up each other with out hurting feelings. Maybe we could talk golf, equipment, your legacy, the Grandaddy, feel, fantasy football, new head covers, best black actor...anything but this depressing topic.
 
Tadashi70 said:
I'd really love for this to go away and stop trying to one up each other with out hurting feelings. Maybe we could talk golf, equipment, your legacy, the Grandaddy, feel, fantasy football, new head covers, best black actor...anything but this depressing topic.
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Samuel L Jackson or Sidney Poitier are my picks I have a tough time choosing one over the other
 
Tadashi70 said:
I'd really love for this to go away and stop trying to one up each other with out hurting feelings. Maybe we could talk golf, equipment, your legacy, the Grandaddy, feel, fantasy football, new head covers, best black actor...anything but this depressing topic.
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Case closed:

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Deuce, first the picture of your son is awesome.My 15 year is 6'4 so I can't steal that shot. You are on the right track.It ain't easy but stay that course. You sound like a great dad which will be the best thing anyone could ever say.
deuce said:
I received four beatings with my fathers belt. I still recall, three decades later, what I did to deserve all four. I received spankings from time to time, mostly because I mouthed off, I probably caught my mom's wooden spoon once or twice, and I had a run-in with ivory soap once too, but honestly I also remember losing privileges and things I enjoyed (toys, etc). I learned very quickly that a beating would only hurt for a few minutes ... a couple of hours at most, but that when things were taken away, they were very slow to return ... that caught my attention.

I look at my son, and granted he's eight weeks old, but I don't see corporal punishment being a staple in my discipline arsenal. My hope is that I am able to establish a rapport with the little guy so when I look him in the eyes and say "Wow, you really disappointed me with that behavior of yours." it'll cut deeper than any smack to his rear I can muster. Are there times that spanking may, in my opinion, serve him better? Perhaps ... I don't know yet. I just need to remember that if I do plan on using that method, it has to be done without emotion and after careful consideration.
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My dad used to beat the crap outta me growing up. This is common practice in most second generation Asian households. Not a very good comparison since it's two entirely different cultures.

I wouldn't do that to my daughters because I've taken on and become accustomed to the toxic American ways :) JK.

There's a fine line between abuse and spanking for discipline purposes. Not sure I'm totally against spanking. Are we now becoming hyper sensitive to the thought of spanking?
 
ok, until now I've only had time to make a few brief comments. I even got one deleted, as I provided no context. So, I have a bit more time, so I thought I'd write a longer response.

FYI, my background is that I am a Licensed Educational Psychologist and Marriage and Family Therapist. Part of my daily job is working to modify the behavior of students we work with through many means, including behavior modification.

First, I'm going to talk about the garden variety spanking/corporal punishment that was mostly referenced here. The AP thing is a whole other level. However, I do think it represents the end of the 'slippery slope' of a culture that generally condones corporal punishment.

Here's is a mostly unorganized list of reasons why I believe spanking / corporal punishment is, basically, unnecessary and, in some cases, potentially has unintended consequences that aren't good for anybody.

(1) You have to see it from the child's point of view, both cognitively and perceptually as well as the intended 'goal' in spanking. At it's most virtuous, the overall goal for people who are spanking is to elicit behavior change. Since they're doing it through spanking, this change is taking place by applying an aversive stimulus (which usually results in fear on the part of the child of experiencing the stimulus in the future, thus reducing the target behavior).

Let's say your kid is 3' tall. Average adult male is 5'10", which is about 2x the size. If you encountered another human being who was 11' tall and probably 5x your weight, what would it take to 'apply an aversive stimulus'? How about a crooked look? How about a firm hand on a shoulder? That's all it would take - and that's from another adult.

Enter the child's cognition. Children are not capable of abstract thought until about age 12 (sometimes as early as 10 or 11). Hell, one of my 3 year olds told me today, "I can't be hurt. I'm not real." all this to say, to modify the behavior by applying an aversive stimulus, striking the child is simply not necessary. You're a freaking giant compared to them. If you can't elicit the same effect by a stern voice and, at most, a firm hand on a shoulder, you have other systemic problems or a major personal parenting skill deficit.

(2) It doesn't work. Yes, you may get a short-term change in behavior. However, (and research is clear on this), when you apply punishment as a means of behavior correction two main things happen, (a) the relationship between the punisher and punishee is damaged in some way and (b) the punishee simply learns to avoid the punisher. They'll still perform the behavior (and, as teens, far more risky ones), but will just make sure and do it without the punisher finding out. Of course, this is not a 100% phenomenon, but the pattern is pretty well established in the literature.

(3) It can have unintended consequences. For example, the person delivering the spanking is frequently emotionally dysregulated while they are delivering the punishment. Thus, they can lose control / go to far / hurt the child more than they intended. For those that say they're in control when they're doing it: that can be even more confusing for the child. The act doesn't match the emotion. They don't have the cognitive ability to comprehend the paradox being presented to them. This can really screw people up as adults. I wasn't kidding about that sexual fetish thing that got deleted. I've seen it too many times.

(4) It tells the child that violence is an option for solving their problems. Sure, if the germans are invading, go for it. However, nearly all of our day-to-day problems can be solved through intelligent negotiation and analysis and, if necessary, just disengaging.

(5) It is contraindicated to what we know about child development and what children need in order to become securely attached - as children and adults. Many of you will state, "but I turned out fine." However, the data on marital satisfaction, parent/child relationship measurements, etc. would say that you may not be as well adjusted as you think you are.

Here is a great summary of what we're trying to do when raising kids:



So, if that is our goal, why the hell would we hit our kids, especially when, with a little education and effort, you can get the behavioral changes you want, without the use of punishment and fear? The risks are just too great and the alternative solution is just too easily accessible.

Yes, people can spank their kids and, otherwise, have enough insulating / buffering factors that it is unlikely to have a significant impact on their future development. However, humans are renowned for our ability to delude ourselves, especially when seeing the truth might cause us discomfort. Hence, again, it's just not worth it.

Other info:

Tons of correlational data showing decreased spanking rates and decreases in violent crime. Here's one.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/07/spanking-and-crime-rates

some studies showing increases in poor health as adults (related to the stress it causes):

Professor Hyland, who teaches health psychology within the University's School of Psychology, added: "Our research adds a new perspective on the increasing evidence that the use of corporal punishment can contribute to childhood stress, and when it becomes a stressor, corporal punishment contributes to poor outcomes both for the individual concerned and for society."
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Correlational studies are just that: correlational. They are statistically significant, but they aren't necessarily causation. So, in the end, we're left with common sense. Our goal is to love our children and teach them that. Showing them that loving them also includes being struck by a person 2x your size is just counterintuitive and only continues to exist as a result of our cultural norms and puritanical history.

To quote Chris Rock (completely out of context): "You can drive a car with your feet if you want to. That doesn't make it a good f*cking idea."
 
When I was younger, I caught a whooping for dumb things I did. Talking back, not doing my chores, fist-fighting in the house with my older brother, things like that...then when I was about 9 or 10 we started homeschooling, which not only meant my parents were a bit more involved in my day to day discipline, but it meant my old man heard about my transgressions just as soon as he walked through the door. Oddly enough, that was the end of my catching hell forthwith. Once Mom & Dad became they sold arbiters of education, they also become the means I had to get out of the house beyond bike riding distance, which often meant poor behavior meant not seeing my friends as often, being that most of my friends were home schooled kids like me, and living beyond the distance of a bike ride.

Also, my old man was/is a master of psychological punishment. To his credit, he's about my height and very, very broad shouldered. Like, has to turn side to get through a door, Arnold's shorter stunt double big. A friend of mine, a tall guy, easily over 6', asked about my dad's height, and when I told him the truth, 5'6", my friend remarked, "Why do I feel like I'm looking up at him when I talk to him?" "Because he's almost too broad-shouldered to pour his own coffee," I replied.

My old man fills a room, and when he turns through a doorway with a glower, that glower fills the room too. That combination of charisma and size got pretty intimidating, to the point where getting the stink eye, and feeling like there's no air in the room did more than a beating ever could. Eventually I'd cower enough to suffice, and he'd say something like, "You know what you did was wrong, right?" in perfect Pennsylvania Dutch diction, and we (me and my older brother were most like to get in trouble) would respond, "Yes, sir." "Good. Don't do it again." Starting about the age of 11 or so, that was about all I needed.

One time he prefaced this brief conversation with making us lie down in the driveway for 10 or 15 minutes. The ideas that percolated in his head were unfathomable to me and my brother, so we whispered back and forth with what Dad had in mind that started with us lying down in the driveway...Eventually he came outside to see us lying down in the driveway, asked us if we were done fighting in the house, that if we did do so again he'd move on to phase 2 of his plan, and told us to wash up for supper. Course he'd been a Staff Sergeant in the Army, which everyone in the family was happy to declare meant he knew all manner of physical, mental, and emotional tortures to inflict on grown men, was its own aura...one trait I'm glad to carry on.
 
My parents spanked me as a child... as a result I now suffer from a psychological condition known as "respect for others".
I know how hard it pained my dad to spank me... thats what really struck home for me, not the spanking itself as they really never hurt, it was the embarrassment of being spanked and disappointing my parents.
When they explained to me something was wrong, obviously I never listened as I thought I knew more than them. That will never work with any strong minded kids unfortunately, no matter how much you want it to. Kids don't think logically until around 12 years old, how is explaining things going to do anything at all when they are below that age, and after that age nothing really works, lol.
 
actually, grade-school kids can be quite logical (age 7, thereabouts). It's abstraction they don't get until 12.

Without data, all you have is an opinion. If the CT scan said you and a brain tumor, but you felt fine, would you ignore the scan? The data is clear.

Do you try and eat healthy food? Why? That donut tastes fantastic and actually gives you a little endorphin high. However, because the data is clear, we know that eating donuts all the time gives you a much higher probability of heart disease, diabetes, etc. Is it a guarantee that you'll get those diseases? Absolutely not. However, people trust the data.

This "I turned out fine so it's ok" reasoning is ridiculous.
 
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chicogolf said:
actually, grade-school kids can be quite logical. It's abstraction they don't get until 12.

Without data, all you have is an opinion. If the CT scan said you and a brain tumor, but you felt fine, would you ignore the scan? The data is clear.

Do you try and eat healthy food? Why? That donut tastes fantastic and actually gives you a little endorphin high. However, because the data is clear, we know that eating donuts all the time gives you a much higher probability of heart disease, diabetes, etc. Is it a guarantee that you'll get those diseases? Absolutely not. However, people trust the data.

This "I turned out fine so it's ok" reasoning is ridiculous.
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The data is clear heh? Abstraction; "The quality of dealing with ideas rather than events". So you agree that not being able to deal with ideas is pre 12, and are only able to deal with events. Aren't you arguing against yourself?? So in other words not logical and physical forms will be remembered correct?
You tell a 4 year old to eat his vegetables because it will make him healthy, he may comply (seems like logical thinking), then you tell him he can't play before bed as it will get him all worked up. No kid will logically accept that, and probably will throw a tantrum. Without and event to recall (ex-spanking) some ideas will never get through until later in age.
And you assuming that your way is the only way, and thats the only way to raise good kids is totally ridiculous. I've seen so many kids who have not turned out ok doing it your way. Probably more, than by being punished physically. They are ridiculous heh?
Obviously I'm not advocating beating your kids, but a spanking is more than about the physical punishment. It a reinforcer that they can remember in their pre-abstact brains correct?
Only real proof you have is 2 generations of badly behaved children, ridiculous, lol
 
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chicogolf said:
actually, grade-school kids can be quite logical (age 7, thereabouts). It's abstraction they don't get until 12.

Without data, all you have is an opinion. If the CT scan said you and a brain tumor, but you felt fine, would you ignore the scan? The data is clear.

Do you try and eat healthy food? Why? That donut tastes fantastic and actually gives you a little endorphin high. However, because the data is clear, we know that eating donuts all the time gives you a much higher probability of heart disease, diabetes, etc. Is it a guarantee that you'll get those diseases? Absolutely not. However, people trust the data.

This "I turned out fine so it's ok" reasoning is ridiculous.
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Were kids in general more well behaved in previous generations, or in the current crop of youngsters?

Now I'm no behavioral specialist, but its pretty clear that the problem of children getting out of line, lacking respect for anyone, and general ass-hattery got worse the more prevalent the "don't discipline kids" idea became.

Let's talk about your little doughnut analogy, too. Sure doughnuts are ok a little at a time every now and then, but if your diet consists solely of doughnuts, its not healthy. A spanking is ok every now and then, but if you beat your kids constantly, they might be a little maladjusted.
 
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