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Tech Talk: Driver Weight and Materials

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JB

JB

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We hear R&D guys and engineers talk about saving weight and golf writers talk about moving weight from one area of the club to another to increase MOI or manipulate ball flight, and the talk is generally in small amounts of grams. One area that is often overlooked by the golfer are the entire crowns and what they weigh and what modern materials have done to give engineers more weight to work with.

THP TV sat down with Mike Yagley, club tech extraordinaire to discuss the weight of crowns and compare a few in this episode of THP Quick Tech.

https://www.thehackersparadise.com/tech-talk-driver-weight-materials/
 
That's kind of insane. I had no idea there was that much weight difference between CF and titanium.
 
dazeedmonds said:
That's kind of insane. I had no idea there was that much weight difference between CF and titanium.
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Same here. I guess it makes sense with the size, but I thought we were talking one of those 5g changes Yagley mentioned that they scrape for.
 
mpeterson said:
Same here. I guess it makes sense with the size, but I thought we were talking one of those 5g changes Yagley mentioned that they scrape for.
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Yeah I knew cf was lighter but not less than half the weight. I guess it makes sense, but when they can find 20-25 grams in a single place I imagine it has to make the engineering dept a little giddy.
 
Always gain knowledge when Yagley speaks.
 
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mpeterson said:
Same here. I guess it makes sense with the size, but I thought we were talking one of those 5g changes Yagley mentioned that they scrape for.
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Kind of crazy isn't it? Even viewing them exact you are looking at 15-20 grams in some instances. That is why there is no doubt that every company will eventually switch to some form of composite material you would have to think, right?
 
JB said:
Kind of crazy isn't it? Even viewing them exact you are looking at 15-20 grams in some instances. That is why there is no doubt that every company will eventually switch to some form of composite material you would have to think, right?
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Cobra, TM, and Callaway (save the XR line) are the big players in this area right now, right? I know PING's entire line is titanium. I can't find a materials story on Titleist's page for the 717. Who are the other holdouts? I think Srixon's stuff is also Ti.
 
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mpeterson said:
Cobra, TM, and Callaway (save the XR line) are the big players in this area right now, right? I know PING's entire line is titanium. I can't find a materials story on Titleist's page for the 717. Who are the other holdouts? I think Srixon's stuff is also Ti.
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I believe Ping and Titleist are still using Ti. Tour Edge does, although a "lighter version".
EDIT: Should add that PXG switched to a composite crown with latest release as they were Ti for the first one and discussed the near 20 gram weight savings.
 
TourEdge is doing a lighter titanium. Wonder if that gains traction in the marketplace.

Big difference in sound between the two as well. That surprised me.

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obedt said:
TourEdge is doing a lighter titanium. Wonder if that gains traction in the marketplace.

Big difference in sound between the two as well. That surprised me.

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Speaking of sound, it's amazing how far sound has come in the composite headed drivers. My wife's driver is a Razr Hawk (yes, it needs to be replaced), and I'll know when she hits it on the screws because it makes a terrible, strange sound.
 
I'd venture to say that eventually the all titanium drivers will be converted to as much carbon fiber as possible. When you can manipulate weight around like that it really frees you up to experiment and potentially find some great combinations that perform well.
 
mpeterson said:
Speaking of sound, it's amazing how far sound has come in the composite headed drivers. My wife's driver is a Razr Hawk (yes, it needs to be replaced), and I'll know when she hits it on the screws because it makes a terrible, strange sound.
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I honestly haven't paid much attention to the M line in terms of sound, but the F7 albeit somewhat loud is what a driver is supposed to sound like. Of course, I'm coming from a terrible sounding driver as well.

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Interesting the significant weight savings they are seeing with CF or only one and two iterations of drivers. Obviously this allows their adjustable weight locations to have a more pronounced impact on COG (and MOI as well?). Can't imagine why all manufacturers haven't moved away from complete titanium crowns.

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Wow, I had now idea there was that much weight difference. It really makes you wonder why every major golf company hasn't embraced carbon fiber crowns.

I think it's going to be interesting to watch how different materials will be used in clubs in the future and what new type of material may come out. Could drivers eventually be made completely of carbon fiber? Will carbon fiber ever be brought in to irons? Interesting stuff.
 
Man, the depth of which they look into materials, weighting, placement, etc. is just mind boggling.
 
I would have to imagine all companies go composite in one way or another at some point. That is a lot of weight to be saved. I think that we will see more companies head that way with the sole as well right? Look at Triton with is titanium and carbon fiber sole plates... Thinking about it now it makes more sense and what a brilliant idea.
 
jdtox said:
I would have to imagine all companies go composite in one way or another at some point. That is a lot of weight to be saved. I think that we will see more companies head that way with the sole as well right? Look at Triton with is titanium and carbon fiber sole plates... Thinking about it now it makes more sense and what a brilliant idea.
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My personal belief is that would depend on the goals. For many we are seeing a goal of weighting low. Going lighter in the sole, would technically raise the CG, but you could add weights to specific spots only of course.
 
JB said:
My personal belief is that would depend on the goals. For many we are seeing a goal of weighting low. Going lighter in the sole, would technically raise the CG, but you could add weights to specific spots only of course.
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Isn't this the reason we can move weights to specific spots now? To adjust the CG by putting specific weight where you need/want it, not just for the sake of adding weight.
 
jdtox said:
Isn't this the reason we can move weights to specific spots now? To adjust the CG by putting specific weight where you need/want it, not just for the sake of adding weight.
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Yes...with side effects. It can also be to manipulate the club head. For instance, adding more weight to the draw side of the club head, is not to just increase weight there. The purpose is to assist in closing the club head or bringing it back to square to manipulate ball flight. Blanking out the sole design, as it pertains to weight, would give freedom to have weight in certain spots only. That is great in theory. The alternative of course is making the entire sole heavier and removing weight at the top which of course would lower the CG as a whole and keep it below the golf ball at impact (in theory).

FWIW, if you view it at a smaller level, it is very much with that piece will do in the Epic irons that just came out. Figured that example might help visually since they showed it in the video.
 
Interesting video that makes me wonder what's next? We reduce the crown from 35g with TI to 15g with the CF mix. How light do we think we ultimately end up going?
 
I knew every gram matters but I didn't realize the recent titanium crowns ate up such a large % of the overall club head weight. Woods used to be wood, then they were metal, then lighter and lighter, stronger and stronger metals. Soon I'm guessing the norm will be they all contain as much composite as is structurally feasible.
 
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So is the main reason why Titanium is still used a cost reason? 20 grams is almost 10% of the overall club weight so that is amazing how much weight they can save just by changing the crown to carbon fiber.
 
mancest said:
So is the main reason why Titanium is still used a cost reason? 20 grams is almost 10% of the overall club weight so that is amazing how much weight they can save just by changing the crown to carbon fiber.
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Hard to say. My guess says yes as one deterrent. We saw PXG make the move to composites after taking some criticism by some outlets for not using it in early editions (not from THP).
 
JB said:
Hard to say. My guess says yes as one deterrent. We saw PXG make the move to composites after taking some criticism by some outlets for not using it in early editions (not from THP).
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I wasn't aware that they used Ti only in the first models. That's surprising giving the price point and story. Then again, looks like the XXIO models are titanium as well, and they're not low in price either. Though theirs is advertised as "low density titanium" so I wonder if it's a similar material to what Tour Edge is using.
 
mpeterson said:
I wasn't aware that they used Ti only in the first models. That's surprising giving the price point and story. Then again, looks like the XXIO models are titanium as well, and they're not low in price either. Though theirs is advertised as "low density titanium" so I wonder if it's a similar material to what Tour Edge is using.
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It is. Different weight class and structure. I think personally I would still prefer composite uses, knowing how much weight can be moved, but there are golfers that still enjoy the titanium models (clearly). It was a video that we really wanted to do because I think it is such an overlooked aspect of the golf club, between brand awareness, club awareness, etc.
 
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