Lost and provisional ball - ruling query

[Jeanthemachine]

Your 2nd ball, without the declaration of it being a provisional, is not a ball in play under the Rules. Technically, it would not count as a stroke at all and you'd either have to walk back to the tee and declare that you were hitting a provisional ball under stroke and distance (your 3rd stroke) or take a 2 stroke penalty and drop a ball in play near where you thought your original ball was (lying 3, hitting 4).

I do not believe this is correct. I think that if you do not declare the second ball as provisional that it (the second ball) IS the ball in play and all other options are off the table.

 

[bhilton]

I do not believe this is correct. I think that if you do not declare the second ball as provisional that it (the second ball) IS the ball in play and all other options are off the table.

This is correct. If you hit a second ball and do not call a provisional, you've possibly screwed yourself 2 strokes.

 

[Craig Mac]

There is always this option too

 

[omega4]

This is correct. If you hit a second ball and do not call a provisional, you've possibly screwed yourself 2 strokes.

That's exactly what I said, even if you didn't understand it.

 

[Smallville]

Your 2nd ball, without the declaration of it being a provisional, is not a ball in play under the Rules. Technically, it would not count as a stroke at all and you'd either have to walk back to the tee and declare that you were hitting a provisional ball under stroke and distance (your 3rd stroke) or take a 2 stroke penalty and drop a ball in play near where you thought your original ball was (lying 3, hitting 4).

This is so wrong.

I do not believe this is correct. I think that if you do not declare the second ball as provisional that it (the second ball) IS the ball in play and all other options are off the table.

This is correct. If you hit a second ball and do not call a provisional, you've possibly screwed yourself 2 strokes.

You guys are obviously correct, and here's a link to back it up.

http://handicaptracker.golf.com/golf-forums/forumtopic.asp?topicID=1680


Topic: LPGA British Open Player rules lapse
Posted by gsollars July 31, 2011

Once again, we have a professional golfer that does not take the time to know and understand the rules. At the Women's British Open yesterday Angela Stanford hit a ball that was very close to the OB fence left of the 18th green. The marshall, in error, indicated that her ball was OB. She proceeded to play a provisional ball without telling her playing partner that she was hitting a provisional until she had verified for herself, as she is required to do since she is ultimately responsible for abiding by the rules, that the ball was indeed OB or still in bounds. Once she hit that second ball, not having declared it as a provisional, that ball now became the "ball in play," and the first ball became irrelevant.

When she arrived at her ball, the ball was indeed inbounds but since her second ball was now her "ball in play," all she could do was pick it up and toss it to a fan. It continues to amaze me that players that expect to make their living playing golf, do not take the time to read and understand the rules. It's not as if this incident was complicated or unusual, all she had to so was appreciate that until she saw the ball for herself, nothing had been decided. She is the one that is supposed to delare it OB or lost. She should have known better.

 

[omega4]

If that's the case, then what is to stop a player from hitting a SECOND ball without declaring it a provisional AFTER he thinks he may have hit his FIRST ball OB (but is NOT sure or perhaps IS sure that his ball lies OB)?

That way, he can avoid the stroke portion of the "stroke and distance" penalty by simply hitting a second ball WITHOUT declaring it a provisional. It would be better to lie 2 with this second non-provisional ball than to declare a ball a provisional and risk lying 3.

 

[SharkHat]

You're still hitting 3, the only difference is that you've surrendered the opportunity to play the original ball if it's playable.

 

[BogbeastUK]

If that's the case, then what is to stop a player from hitting a SECOND ball without declaring it a provisional AFTER he thinks he may have hit his FIRST ball OB (but is NOT sure or perhaps IS sure that his ball lies OB)?

That way, he can avoid the stroke portion of the "stroke and distance" penalty by simply hitting a second ball WITHOUT declaring it a provisional. It would be better to lie 2 with this second non-provisional ball than to declare a ball a provisional and risk lying 3.

If you play a second ball off the tee without calling it a provisional, you automatically make this the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. Therefore you can at any point on the tee decide you don't like where your tee shot has gone, re-tee and play another shot, but that now becomes your third shot. It's covered under rule 27-1 and refers to rule 20-5.

The main thing to watch out for (again this is my interpretation of the rules and needs to be verified), is that if you re-tee in the tee box, that ball doesn't become live until you play a stroke at it, but if you drop another ball in the fairway, rough, etc., that ball then becomes live immediately.

 

[omega4]

You're still hitting 3, the only difference is that you've surrendered the opportunity to play the original ball if it's playable.

If you play a second ball off the tee without calling it a provisional, you automatically make this the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. Therefore you can at any point on the tee decide you don't like where your tee shot has gone, re-tee and play another shot, but that now becomes your third shot. It's covered under rule 27-1 and refers to rule 20-5.

The main thing to watch out for (again this is my interpretation of the rules and needs to be verified), is that if you re-tee in the tee box, that ball doesn't become live until you play a stroke at it, but if you drop another ball in the fairway, rough, etc., that ball then becomes live immediately.

Ok, I see now. A penalty stroke is applied whether or not a second ball is declared provisional. You just lose the option of playing your first ball if you don't declare the second ball a provisional.

As for your second comment, maybe the tee box (and green) is considered different from the rest of the course with regards to some of the rules. I suppose that's where the term "through the green" arises from.

 

[bjmaverick]

ROTFLMAO

There is always this option too

 

[Smallville]

There is always this option too

Unless Mickelson is there, hahaha

Or the guy in War Eagle's league!

 

[omega4]

Unless Mickelson is there, hahaha

Or the guy in War Eagle's league!

Mickelson won't be there. Too many cellphones on the course LOL.

 

[Richard Rodgers]

That's exactly what I'd always been told to do, declare verbally that you're assuming the ball to be lost, but found something on the R&A's website in the rules explorer at the following link:-

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=27&subRuleNum=1

If you scroll down to the bottom of Rule 27-1 there's an FAQ section where the question, "Can a player verbally declare his ball to be lost?" is asked. The reply is:-

A player cannot render a ball lost by declaration. A ball can only be considered lost when:
a) it is not found or identified by the player within 5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b) the player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (See Rule 27-2b); or
c) the player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke or distance under rule 26-1a, 27-1, or 28a; or
d) the player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or
e) the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball

From what I read into that, no-one can verbally declare a lost ball, it's only deemed lost when one of the actions mentioned above is taken, and that the 5 minute rule only applies is the player, a member of their team, or one of their caddies, starts looking for the ball.

If you go to that link, there's a section to the right titled "Decisions related to rule 27-1" that has some queries sent in by people and the appropriate ruling. Makes interesting reading.

Yes Bog, you are quite correct in that the player can not declare a ball lost simply on a whim. TBH I did not know that until you posted. Thank you.

This does however bring the 5 minute rule into question as the part that you posted states that the ball can not be deemed as lost until after 5 mins from when the player, caddie or partner begin the search. Therefore, taking it to the letter of the law, when searching for a ball, a player is not allowed to deem the ball lost until the end of the 5 mins, no matter how obvious it is that the thing must be lost.

Now I guess that we have all at some point been so disgusted with a shot going wrong that after a short look in the long stuff we have said "to hell with it" and moved on to our provisional ball. Looks like we should have not done so. Oh well, looks like the time for 18 holes is just going to get even longer.

 

[Smallville]

Yes Bog, you are quite correct in that the player can not declare a ball lost simply on a whim. TBH I did not know that until you posted. Thank you.

This does however bring the 5 minute rule into question as the part that you posted states that the ball can not be deemed as lost until after 5 mins from when the player, caddie or partner begin the search. Therefore, taking it to the letter of the law, when searching for a ball, a player is not allowed to deem the ball lost until the end of the 5 mins, no matter how obvious it is that the thing must be lost.

Now I guess that we have all at some point been so disgusted with a shot going wrong that after a short look in the long stuff we have said "to hell with it" and moved on to our provisional ball. Looks like we should have not done so. Oh well, looks like the time for 18 holes is just going to get even longer.

You can do it six ways to Sunday, but you need to follow rule 27-1. I think that you don't have to look for the ball at all, but if someone else finds it (in five minutes), you have to play it.

When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

 

[Kobey]

What about other places on the course? Let's say I have a 3 foot putt and I miss it big time and the roll takes it off the green into a bunker. Could I then drop another ball in the same spot and putt again, taking stroke and distance?

 

[Smallville]

What about other places on the course? Let's say I have a 3 foot putt and I miss it big time and the roll takes it off the green into a bunker. Could I then drop another ball in the same spot and putt again, taking stroke and distance?

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made
When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 20-5:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

 

[omega4]

What about other places on the course? Let's say I have a 3 foot putt and I miss it big time and the roll takes it off the green into a bunker. Could I then drop another ball in the same spot and putt again, taking stroke and distance?

No. Your ball is neither lost nor OB. In your example, it's lying in a bunker.

 

[Smallville]

No. Your ball is neither lost nor OB. In your example, it's lying in a bunker.

Not according to rule 20-5, the way I read it anyway.

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

 

[omega4]

Not according to rule 20-5, the way I read it anyway.

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

If a player elects to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, is there a penalty stroke taken? The rule you quoted doesn't specify.

 

[Smallville]

If a player elects to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, is there a penalty stroke taken? The rule you quoted doesn't specify.

I thought it was obvious there is a penalty stroke for doing that, but the rule is found here:

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
• a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[omega4]

And that was my original point, which you obviously didn't understand.

In the previous example, the ball was hit into a bunker. It is neither lost nor OB. Rule 27-1 doesn't apply in this case.

That's the reason I asked if the rule you cited, 20-5, specified that a penalty stroke must be taken.

I thought it was obvious there is a penalty stroke for doing that, but the rule is found here:

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
• a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[Smallville]

Whatever. You just like to argue a point. You win.

 

[Smallville]

And that was my original point, which you obviously didn't understand.

In the previous example, the ball was hit into a bunker. It is neither lost nor OB. Rule 27-1 doesn't apply in this case.

That's the reason I asked if the rule you cited, 20-5, specified that a penalty stroke must be taken.

Oh yeah, yes it does apply. Or does this not count as "at any time"? You just have to go to rule 20-5 too, as it says "see rule 20-5".

But I get it, you want to argue. More power to you. But quit giving wrong answers to rules questions, your last two were obviously incorrect.

 

[omega4]

Whatever. You just like to argue a point. You win.

If you can't defend your premise, maybe someone else can.

Let's say I have a 1 ft putt downhill on a very fast green. I miss the putt and it rolls completely off the green, down the apron into the fairway (the green was elevated above the fairway and apron). The ball comes to rest about 50 yds from the pin.

If what you say is true (which I don't think it is), then I can replace my ball back where I made my 1 ft putt attempt at the cost of just 1 stroke. Considering that the odds of my playing the ball from 50 yds away to 1 ft away from the pin aren't all that high, taking a 1 stroke penalty to have the opportunity to take another 1 ft putt is worth it.

But like I said, I don't think you're interpretation of the rules is correct as I have NEVER seen a golf pro or otherwise avail themselves of the option to replace a ball that was NOT lost nor OB as you suggest at simply the cost of 1 penalty stroke.

 

[omega4]

And that was my original point, which you obviously didn't understand.

In the previous example, the ball was hit into a bunker. It is neither lost nor OB. Rule 27-1 doesn't apply in this case.

That's the reason I asked if the rule you cited, 20-5, specified that a penalty stroke must be taken.

The way I read 27-1, "at any time" is superseded by "Ball out of Bounds; Ball not found within Five minutes". In other words, "at any time" is not unconditional, as you say it is.

Your entitled to think what you want of me, even though you're completely wrong. But I suppose absolute power corrupts absolutely.