Lost and provisional ball - ruling query

[Smallville]

If you can't defend your premise, maybe someone else can.

Let's say I have a 1 ft putt downhill on a very fast green. I miss the putt and it rolls completely off the green, down the apron into the fairway (the green was elevated above the fairway and apron). The ball comes to rest about 50 yds from the pin.

If what you say is true (which I don't think it is), then I can replace my ball back where I made my 1 ft putt attempt at the cost of just 1 stroke. Considering that the odds of my playing the ball from 50 yds away to 1 ft away from the pin aren't all that high, taking a 1 stroke penalty to have the opportunity to take another 1 ft putt is worth it.

But like I said, I don't think you're interpretation of the rules is correct as I have NEVER seen a golf pro or otherwise avail themselves of the option to replace a ball that was NOT lost nor OB as you suggest at simply the cost of 1 penalty stroke.

I said that's how I read it. You could replace the ball, but say your third shot was the putt in question, replace the ball hitting five.

I've never seen anyone do it either, but that doesn't mean they can't. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it.

 

[Smallville]

The way I read 27-1, "at any time" is superseded by "Ball out of Bounds; Ball not found within Five minutes". In other words, "at any time" is not unconditional, as you say it is.

OK last time. Then why would they have rule 20-5? Rule 27-1 specifically mentions rule 20-5. I will paste the rule here, again.

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made
When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green.

And again, rule 27-1 says to add a penalty stroke.

I have an email in at the usga.org site on this. I will let you know what the answer is when I get it, it will be about three weeks.

 

[omega4]

I said that's how I read it. You could replace the ball, but say your third shot was the putt in question, replace the ball hitting five.

I've never seen anyone do it either, but that doesn't mean they can't. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it.

If it could be done, then I'm sure it would have been done and seen in person or on TV. But like I said, I haven't seen it, and apparently, neither have you.

There are times at the Masters where I've seen short (4 ft putts) miss and roll off the green as the example I've stated. If the players could, I'm sure they would prefer to take that 4 ft putt again with a penalty stroke added on instead of having to chip back to that pin location in the hopes of having another treacherous downhill 4 ft putt to make.

But I have never seen any players do this, which is why I believe your interpretation of the rules is wrong.

 

[omega4]

Why wouldn't the Rules have 20-5?

All 20-5 does is define how a ball must be placed depending on its previous location. 20-5 has nothing to do with what actions must be taken if a ball was lost or OB.

That is covered under Rule 27-1.

But again, the ball in my and the previous poster's example is NOT lost nor OB. It is lying on the fairway or in a bunker, in their respective examples. As a result, I do not believe it is covered under 27-1.

OK last time. Then why would they have rule 20-5? Rule 27-1 specifically mentions rule 20-5. I will paste the rule here, again.

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made
When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

(b) Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

(c) In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

(d) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green.

And again, rule 27-1 says to add a penalty stroke.

I have an email in at the usga.org site on this. I will let you know what the answer is when I get it, it will be about three weeks.

 

[SharkHat]

As in other threads, the problem is not with content or points made, but with the condescending attitude and sideways jabs.

 

[omega4]

As in other threads, the problem is not with content or points made, but with the condescending attitude and sideways jabs.

I agree completely. I asked a simple question and got this:

I thought it was obvious there is a penalty stroke for doing that, but the rule is found here:

Whatever. You just like to argue a point. You win.

But I get it, you want to argue. More power to you. But quit giving wrong answers to rules questions, your last two were obviously incorrect.

Condescending, with attitude, and sideway jabs as you so succinctly put it. Totally uncalled for from a mod when both can't agree on a rule's interpretation.

Like I said, all I did was ask a question and defend my take on a golf rule. I even cited examples to illustrate my take on a golf rule.

We can agree to disagree like adults, not immature children.

 

[Smallville]

OK. Here is definitive proof for you, omega.

Rule 28 is where you find this, and it references Rules 27-1 AND 20-5. Argue this one if you wish:

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable
Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section – see pages 22-35.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped
in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

 

[SharkHat]

I wasn't talking about Smalls.

 

[SharkHat]

And in regard to the question, I wonder if the fact that you would be moving the ball closer to the hole supersedes everything else.

 

[Kobey]

I hope you get an answer from them Smalls, this seems to be going round and round.

 

[Smallville]

And in regard to the question, I wonder if the fact that you would be moving the ball closer to the hole supersedes everything else.

Except you wouldn't be. You would be replacing it from where you hit your previous shot. Rule 28 explains it perfectly, which is why this thread just got quiet.

(See post #57)

 

[omega4]

You've found it. Nice job.

I agree that Rule 28 answers my question definitively. However, as I correctly said before though, Rules 27-1 and 20-5 did NOT answer my question, even though you stated it did.

I wonder why more players don't avail themselves of the option to invoke Rule 28 and declare a ball unplayable in tournaments, as in that Masters tournament example that I cited. It certainly cuts down on potentially high scores on "blowup holes". Perhaps they weren't aware of the rules.

OK. Here is definitive proof for you, omega.

Rule 28 is where you find this, and it references Rules 27-1 AND 20-5. Argue this one if you wish:

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable
Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section – see pages 22-35.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped
in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

 

[omega4]

Rule 28 explains it perfectly, which is why this thread just got quiet.

(See post #57)

However, as I correctly said before though, Rules 27-1 and 20-5 did NOT answer my question, even though you incorrectly stated it did.

Turns out, it's Rule 28 which covers it (NOT 27-1 or 20-5 in and by themselves).

 

[Smallville]

However, as I correctly said before though, Rules 27-1 and 20-5 did NOT answer my question, even though you stated it did.

You're awesome.

 

[omega4]

And in regard to the question, I wonder if the fact that you would be moving the ball closer to the hole supersedes everything else.

How are you moving the ball closer to the hole? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[omega4]

You're awesome.

And I give you credit for finding Rule 28. It answered my question.

 

[SharkHat]

That was regarding the 1 foot putt that ends up 50 yards downhill example, and Smalls has already pointed out my error.

 

[Smallville]

However, as I correctly said before though, Rules 27-1 and 20-5 did NOT answer my question, even though you incorrectly stated it did.

Turns out, it's Rule 28 which covers it (NOT 27-1 or 20-5 in and by themselves).

This is the last time I am feeding the creature under the bridge. Rule 27-1 does cover it, as it is referenced from rule 28.

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
• a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[omega4]

Frankly, I'm surprised that there aren't more rules governing a player's declaring a ball "unplayable" and instead simply leaving it up to a player's judgment.

In doing so, it could lead to some interesting situations, like the Masters' tournament example that I cited earlier. I suppose it is what it is.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

OK. Here is definitive proof for you, omega.

Rule 28 is where you find this, and it references Rules 27-1 AND 20-5. Argue this one if you wish:

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable
Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section – see pages 22-35.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped
in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

I was hoping someone would get around to this. Good post!

 

[omega4]

This is the last time I am feeding the creature under the bridge. Rule 27-1 does cover it, as it is referenced from rule 28.

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
• a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

Wrong again. Again, in my example, the ball is neither LOST nor OB (it is lying in the fairway).

Rule 27-1 only covers balls that are lost or OB.

Rule 20-5 covers how a ball must be replaced depending on its previous location.

It is Rule 28 which answers my question, as a ball lying in the fairway can be declared unplayable (as per Rule 28).

Again, Rules 27-1 and 20-5 do not answer my question by themselves. It is Rule 28 which explains how I can declare a ball unplayable and THEN proceed under Rules 27-1 and 20-5.

Understand? I hope so.

 

[Smallville]

There are actually two greens on my course where this rule would come in handy. Many times I have putted off the green twice from above the hole.

 

[omega4]

There are actually two greens on my course where this rule would come in handy. Many times I have putted off the green twice from above the hole.

I intend on citing this rule now even if the pros do not.

I've also emailed my question/example to the Rules Guy in Golf Digest along with the answer. I also asked him if he's seen any instances of others invoking Rule 28 from the fairway as per my example.

 

[Smallville]

I intend on citing this rule now even if the pros do not.

I've also emailed the question to the Rules Guy in Golf Digest along with the answer. I also asked him if he's seen any instances of others invoking Rule 28 from the fairway as per my example.

Doesn't matter if anyone has invoked it or not. Obviously it's allowed under Rule 28.

Oops, fed him again.

 

[omega4]

Doesn't matter if anyone has invoked it or not. Obviously it's allowed under Rule 28.

Oops, fed him again.

Obviously, it doesn't hurt to see if others have seen instances of Rule 28 being invoked from the fairway, as per my example.

You should know that as a mod of the THP forums, your behavior regarding me does not represent THP in the most positive light. Others are taking notice and will ascribe your actions to THP. Just a thought.