Lost and provisional ball - ruling query

[bert]

I do not believe this is correct. I think that if you do not declare the second ball as provisional that it (the second ball) IS the ball in play and all other options are off the table.

I agree that if you do not declare a 2nd shot from the tee a provisional, you have put the second ball in play and have no more options with the first tee shot.

 

[Kobey]

This is the last time I am feeding the creature under the bridge. Rule 27-1 does cover it, as it is referenced from rule 28.

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
• a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

Wrong again. Again, in my example, the ball is neither LOST nor OB (it is lying in the fairway).

Rule 27-1 only covers balls that are lost or OB.

Rule 20-5 covers how a ball must be replaced depending on its previous location.

It is Rule 28 which answers my question, as a ball lying in the fairway can be declared unplayable (as per Rule 28).

Again, Rules 27-1 and 20-5 do not answer my question by themselves. It is Rule 28 which explains how I can declare a ball unplayable and THEN proceed under Rules 27-1 and 20-5.

Understand? I hope so.

The way I read it, that rule covers three things: Stroke and Distance, Ball Out of Bounds, and Ball Not Found. The ball doesn't have to be out of bounds or lost to use stroke and distance. I think you are reading into it too much Omega.

 

[omega4]

The way I read it, that rule covers three things: Stroke and Distance, Ball Out of Bounds, and Ball Not Found. The ball doesn't have to be out of bounds or lost to use stroke and distance. I think you are reading into it too much Omega.

Before becoming aware of Rule 28, I might have agreed with you but would need further clarification.

But because Rule 28 specifically addresses how a player can declare ANY ball unplayable and how that unplayability is governed by Rules 27-1 and 20-5, I believe that Rules 27-1 and 20-5 do not answer my question and example cited specifically (but Rule 28 does).

 

[Smallville]

I hope you get an answer from them Smalls, this seems to be going round and round.

This is the standard reply after sending a question to the USGA. We already know the answer, but should get an official answer in about three weeks.

Thank you for submitting your question to the USGA regarding the Rules of Golf. We have received your email and you will receive a response shortly.

Please be patient as it is our goal to respond to all Rules of Golf questions submitted to the USGA within 15-20 business days. Please do not submit your question again.

Rules@usga.org<mailto:Rules@usga.org<mailto:Rules@usga.org%3cmailto:Rules@usga.org>> receives over 700 emails a month and duplicate e-mails slow down our response time.

 

[will_i_dream]

here's an extension of the original question, on a course i have played there is a wall running left to right and away from the tee. there is out of bounds down the right hand side of the fairway. the hole dog legs right. i hit my first shot off the tee and its tight to the corner, not sure if its OB or not. I call provisional, play another ball and top it straight into the wall and long grass 20yds in front of the tee. I lose that ball and want to play off the tee, what stroke am i hitting?
i played another off the tee to the corner, we walk up and i see my first ball 20yds further on in the middle of the fairway, i picked up the other ball and played my first original tee shot. as it was just a casual round with friends they were happy for me to play my second into the green with my original ball.

 

[bhilton]

Obviously, it doesn't hurt to see if others have seen instances of Rule 28 being invoked from the fairway, as per my example.

You should know that as a mod of the THP forums, your behavior regarding me does not represent THP in the most positive light. Others are taking notice and will ascribe your actions to THP. Just a thought.

Others have seen where you are coming from as well and get a pretty good idea that you are trying to start crap and kind of feel sorry for the mods that have to put up with it.

As to your question as to why the pros don't do it. If they are on a fast green with about a 4 foot putt and putt it off the green, there is probably a pretty good chance that it will happen again if they take the penalty rather than playing it as it lies. They will still have the same slick 4 foot putt, that if they miss the hole will go right back off the green. They know what they are doing.

 

[Smallville]

here's an extension of the original question, on a course i have played there is a wall running left to right and away from the tee. there is out of bounds down the right hand side of the fairway. the hole dog legs right. i hit my first shot off the tee and its tight to the corner, not sure if its OB or not. I call provisional, play another ball and top it straight into the wall and long grass 20yds in front of the tee. I lose that ball and want to play off the tee, what stroke am i hitting?
i played another off the tee to the corner, we walk up and i see my first ball 20yds further on in the middle of the fairway, i picked up the other ball and played my first original tee shot. as it was just a casual round with friends they were happy for me to play my second into the green with my original ball.

Not looking up the exact wording of the rule, this is what I think:

Your first ball (shot #1) might be out of bounds, so you hit a provisional (which is shot #3, if your ball is indeed OB). But you hit that into the grass and want to take a stroke and distance penalty on your provisional. So your next shot off the tee is #5, if your original shot is indeed OB). When you find your original ball ion bounds, you MUST abandon your provisional and any shots taken after it and are hitting 2 from where you found your first ball.

If you hadn't found your ball in bounds, then your next shot would be #6.

 

[Kobey]

Thinking about this a little more, I can't really imagine a situation in which a pro would ever want to do this. If they were 150 yards out and went behind a tree next to the green, they would still be better off taking an unplayable or punching out from behind it. That way they would be on the same shot next to the green instead of 150 yards away still.

In case I didn't phrase it well: 1st scenario playing as it lies with no penalties, 2nd taking stroke and distance

1. 1st shot drive
2nd shot from 150
3rd shot punch out
4th shot from edge of green

2. 1st shot drive
2nd shot from 150
3rd shot penalty for stroke and distance
4th shot from 150

Now I can see why we never see it.

 

[bhilton]

here's an extension of the original question, on a course i have played there is a wall running left to right and away from the tee. there is out of bounds down the right hand side of the fairway. the hole dog legs right. i hit my first shot off the tee and its tight to the corner, not sure if its OB or not. I call provisional, play another ball and top it straight into the wall and long grass 20yds in front of the tee. I lose that ball and want to play off the tee, what stroke am i hitting?
i played another off the tee to the corner, we walk up and i see my first ball 20yds further on in the middle of the fairway, i picked up the other ball and played my first original tee shot. as it was just a casual round with friends they were happy for me to play my second into the green with my original ball.

I'm not quite sure I understand the whole situation, but it looks like you played it correctly by playing your original ball. As long as you called provisional and didn't play any strokes with your provisional past the point in the fairway of where your original ball lies.

 

[omega4]

here's an extension of the original question, on a course i have played there is a wall running left to right and away from the tee. there is out of bounds down the right hand side of the fairway. the hole dog legs right. i hit my first shot off the tee and its tight to the corner, not sure if its OB or not. I call provisional, play another ball and top it straight into the wall and long grass 20yds in front of the tee. I lose that ball and want to play off the tee, what stroke am i hitting?
i played another off the tee to the corner, we walk up and i see my first ball 20yds further on in the middle of the fairway, i picked up the other ball and played my first original tee shot. as it was just a casual round with friends they were happy for me to play my second into the green with my original ball.

Stroke 1: first ball hit off tee. Might be OB.
Stroke 2: penalty stroke for potential OB shot
Stroke 3: Provisional ball; second shot off tee. Ball declared lost and unplayable.
Stroke 4: penalty stroke for unplayable ball declaration.
Stroke 5: Provisional ball; lies OK at corner of fairway.

I believe that when you declared your first provisional ball unplayable and played your second provisional ball, your first ball was removed from play.

By picking up your second provisional ball (which is actually now the ball in play) and playing your first ball (which is not a ball in play), you've just incurred a number of penalties.

 

[omega4]

Others have seen where you are coming from as well and get a pretty good idea that you are trying to start crap and kind of feel sorry for the mods that have to put up with it.

As to your question as to why the pros don't do it. If they are on a fast green with about a 4 foot putt and putt it off the green, there is probably a pretty good chance that it will happen again if they take the penalty rather than playing it as it lies. They will still have the same slick 4 foot putt, that if they miss the hole will go right back off the green. They know what they are doing.

If you have any proof that I'm "trying to start crap", I welcome you to present your case.

As to your comment about my question, I still believe that pros stand a better chance to make a treacherous 4 ft downhill putt (that they now know what the line is) even with a penalty than to attempt to chip a good distance from the fairway, only to risk an even longer downhill putt on a different line than what they had just attempted.

 

[SharkHat]

And that was my original point, which you obviously didn't understand.

If you can't defend your premise, maybe someone else can.

Your entitled to think what you want of me, even though you're completely wrong. But I suppose absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Maybe it's time to examine your own posts the way you do the posts of others, and then think about why you continue to find yourself in these types of conversations. The tone of the thread was fine right up until the first quoted post above.


Regarding will's scenario, I believe you're wrong again. The third shot off the tee after losing the first provisional would be Stroke 5, but could still be provisional as long as declared as such, since you're still behind the original ball. Once the original ball was found and no shots were made from in front of it, he could resume playing as the second stroke.

 

[Kobey]

Hmmm, I guess we now need to find out if you are allowed to play more than one provisional and if it cancels out the original shot if you do. I like this thread, I'm learning a lot here.

 

[Smallville]

Hmmm, I guess we now need to find out if you are allowed to play more than one provisional and if it cancels out the original shot if you do. I like this thread, I'm learning a lot here.

Rule 27-2

Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a
water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball.
If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the
previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

 

[omega4]

Maybe it's time to examine your own posts the way you do the posts of others, and then think about why you continue to find yourself in these types of conversations. The tone of the thread was fine right up until the first quoted post above.


Regarding will's scenario, I believe you're wrong again. The third shot off the tee after losing the first provisional would be Stroke 5, but could still be provisional as long as declared as such, since you're still behind the original ball. Once the original ball was found and no shots were made from in front of it, he could resume playing as the second stroke.

I only reflect other's attitudes towards me. You've expressed your opinions about me in a respectful manner, so I've responded in kind. When Smallville, a THP mod, does the same, then I will respond in kind. But he clearly hasn't acted in a respectful manner towards me.

Regarding Will's scenario, I believe you are right. On second thought now, I don't think declaring a provisional unplayable results in the first ball being automatically removed from the field of play.

 

[SharkHat]

Hmmm, I guess we now need to find out if you are allowed to play more than one provisional and if it cancels out the original shot if you do. I like this thread, I'm learning a lot here.

I totally get you're question. Playing a provisional to the provisional.

This is still entirely my own interpretation, but I don't think you would actually be playing more than one provisional in Will's example. The first provisional shot was lost, so stroke and distance penalty brings you back to the teebox. Stroke 5 from the teebox is still under provisional play since you haven't reached the original ball.

 

[omega4]

Hmmm, I guess we now need to find out if you are allowed to play more than one provisional and if it cancels out the original shot if you do. I like this thread, I'm learning a lot here.

No, playing a provisional does not automatically result in the removal of the previously played ball from the field of play.

 

[omega4]

I totally get you're question. Playing a provisional to the provisional.

This is still entirely my own interpretation, but I don't think you would actually be playing more than one provisional in Will's example. The first provisional shot was lost, so stroke and distance penalty brings you back to the teebox. Stroke 5 from the teebox is still under provisional play since you haven't reached the original ball.

Yes, but under Rule 28, you can declare practically any ball played (in order) unplayable, under penalty of stroke and distance.

So if you declare the first ball played unplayable, then you just proceed down to the first provisional ball, then the second, etc.

 

[will_i_dream]

rule 27-2 does seem to indicate that i can play a second provisional if the first provisional might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds

 

[Kobey]

Now my head is starting to hurt.

 

[Smallville]

Stroke 1: first ball hit off tee. Might be OB.
Stroke 2: penalty stroke for potential OB shot
Stroke 3: Provisional ball; second shot off tee. Ball declared lost and unplayable.
Stroke 4: penalty stroke for unplayable ball declaration.
Stroke 5: Provisional ball; lies OK at corner of fairway.

I believe that when you declared your first provisional ball unplayable and played your second provisional ball, your first ball was removed from play.

By picking up your second provisional ball (which is actually now the ball in play) and playing your first ball (which is not a ball in play), you've just incurred a number of penalties.

Wrong again. No offense.

rule 27-2 does seem to indicate that i can play a second provisional if the first provisional might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds

Rule 27-2

Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a
water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball.
If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the
previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

 

[omega4]

Wrong again. No offense.

None taken. Shark has already corrected me with regards to the provisional ball.

As someone has already indicated, this is a good thread. It's cleared up a few misconceptions I'd had regarding provisional balls, as well as providing me with a little used tactic regarding declaring balls unplayable when it benefits me (as per my cited example).

 

[omega4]

Now my head is starting to hurt.

LOL, as if just playing good golf wasn't difficult enough!

 

[BogbeastUK]

Guys, thanks for responding to this and I apologise for stirring up a bit of a hornet's nest. :bashful:

I certainly seems like it a series of rules that has been mis-understood by a few people, and I'd include some members at my club who've been playing for some while. Thanks Smallville for posting the details of Rule 28, and it appears that I may have got it right in my original post: at any time I can decide that playing my provisional ball is much ore beneficial than my original and I can then go forward and play it as long as no-one finds my original ball. As soon as a stroke's been made at the provisional from a point closer to the hole than where the original is likely to be then the provisional is now the ball in play and the original is not, even if it's been played.

For anyone interested in rulings on specific examples, go to the website link below and look at the section on the right entitled "Decisions related to rule 27" and there's a bunch of interesting rulings. Click on rule 27-1 and 27-2 on the left and you'll then see a different bunch of rulings.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=27

Many thanks again guys.

 

[BogbeastUK]

Yes Bog, you are quite correct in that the player can not declare a ball lost simply on a whim. TBH I did not know that until you posted. Thank you.

This does however bring the 5 minute rule into question as the part that you posted states that the ball can not be deemed as lost until after 5 mins from when the player, caddie or partner begin the search. Therefore, taking it to the letter of the law, when searching for a ball, a player is not allowed to deem the ball lost until the end of the 5 mins, no matter how obvious it is that the thing must be lost.

Now I guess that we have all at some point been so disgusted with a shot going wrong that after a short look in the long stuff we have said "to hell with it" and moved on to our provisional ball. Looks like we should have not done so. Oh well, looks like the time for 18 holes is just going to get even longer.

Richard, I get what you're saying, but if I'mreading the rules right, you've been doing nothing wrong. You got up to 5 minutes to find your ball, but if it's unlikely you're going to find it you can go up to your provisional, or back to the original position and drop a ball, and once you've either played your provisional from a point closer to the hole than where your original is likely to be, or dropped a substitute ball, the original is no longer in play and you continue with your current ball. There is no penalty for doing this other than the usual stroke and distance. I think!!!!