Move UP! I've Been Asking the Powers That Be to Get Involved!!

[highscoreinky]

I could be wrong but I think that the distaces Tom refers to for the "average golfer" is to give them an opportunity to play like the "above average golfers" do. To have a shot at reaching some par 5's in 2 if you blast a tee shot and are in the right position, to be able to reach all par 4's in 2 and have a shot at making a birdie, etc.

I have never personally played a par 4 at 491. That's the distance on one of the par 4's today at Quail Hollow. I would bet that the vast majority of THP members don't have a real shot at reaching the green in 2 at that distance, much less have a putt for birdie. So, I think the yardages Tom recommends is to give some of us hackers the ability to have more chances for eagles and birdies which every golfer enjoys making. My chances to do so playing from 7,400 yards are drastically reduced compared to when I play from 6,400 yards.

 

[biggsy]

In a nice definition of irony, check out the Conservatory at Hammock Beach score card.

A Tom Watson designed course.

Scorecard
Tee Par Yards Slope Rating
Black 72 7776 155 78.4
Gold 72 7300 151 76.6
Blue 72 6792 142 74
White 72 6471 135 71.3
Green72 6001 132 70.1
Red 72 5525 127 67.8

At least it isn't challenging, wow!

Someone said it earlier, define average golfer Mr. Watson. Break it down by handicap and then play the appropriate box. Rounds wouldn't be very enjoyable if I had to play from the woman's tees.

 

[Dent]

From my own stand point I couldn't believe how short our course from the back tees seems to be this year for me. It felt long as hell last year but this year it is short. It is currently at 6700 yards. Hole by hole you can see how many wedges I hit

1) 6 Iron, PW
2) Driver, 60*
3) Driver, PW
4) 3H
5) 3H, 5I, 9I
6) 3H, PW
7) 4W, 6I
8) 9I
9) Driver, 7I, 56*
10) Driver, 56*
11) 3H
12) 4W, PW
13) Driver, 6I, 56*
14) 7I
15) 3H, 52*
16) 3H, PW
17) Driver, 9I
18) 5I, 52*

A total of 11 approaches being wedge.

 

[pjcedog]

From my own stand point I couldn't believe how short our course from the back tees seems to be this year for me. It felt long as hell last year but this year it is short. It is currently at 6700 yards. Hole by hole you can see how many wedges I hit

1) 6 Iron, PW
2) Driver, 60*
3) Driver, PW
4) 3H
5) 3H, 5I, 9I
6) 3H, PW
7) 4W, 6I
8) 9I
9) Driver, 7I, 56*
10) Driver, 56*
11) 3H
12) 4W, PW
13) Driver, 6I, 56*
14) 7I
15) 3H, 52*
16) 3H, PW
17) Driver, 9I
18) 5I, 52*

A total of 11 approaches being wedge.

If I were you I would maybe work on hitting those wedges to within 8 feet, that would really help your game. The long game can only be so good and then it is subject to rub of the green and other factors, vagaries of the wind or whatever, but if you are hitting that many wedges into greens you could really knock down some great scores by dialing those wedges in close. Just a thought.

 

[cj3ap2]

In a nice definition of irony, check out the Conservatory at Hammock Beach score card.

A Tom Watson designed course.

Scorecard
Tee Par Yards Slope Rating
Black 72 7776 155 78.4
Gold 72 7300 151 76.6
Blue 72 6792 142 74
White 72 6471 135 71.3
Green72 6001 132 70.1
Red 72 5525 127 67.8

I normally play the whites, that's what we played in most competition's i've been in, and with my driver carry distances being somewhere abouts 225-235, it works out of me. If I play further back i'm hitting 3-4 iron into most greens and that's just not all that enjoyable.

My point of issue with quoting this post is, can we please get some tee uniformity? red-white-blue-black championship tee's, seems to me to be all we really need. what the bleep is the point of having 6 tee boxes? It annoys me because I shouldn't have to do a math equation just to figure out which tee box I should be playing from, which tee box is = to the tee box I usually play. The above seems simple enough, but with the way the tee boxes are set up with the whites being the 4th longest instead of 3rd, I gotta decide for myself are the blue's on this course designed to be the whites at other courses and this is designed to specifically be a long course? what's the point of the gold's there? i've seen gold's market for further up, senior's tee box on some courses. Unnecessarily confusing, imo

Maybe i'm making mountain's out of mole hills but I just feel a little uniformity with the tee boxes among all courses (color and length) would be better. black championship, followed by blue, then white, then red and maybe a yellow thrown in front of that one. That's all a course ever needs.

 

[JB]

Maybe i'm making mountain's out of mole hills but I just feel a little uniformity with the tee boxes among all courses (color and length) would be better. black championship, followed by blue, then white, then red and maybe a yellow thrown in front of that one. That's all a course ever needs.

Im the exact opposite, I want more tee boxes on courses. It opens the doors up for more skill levels. And at a course like this if I am paying 150k initiation fee to play a course like this every day, I want to be able to have it change up weekly.

 

[MattyKrack17]

I like to play 6300-6500, but I'm about a 250 driver

 

[coolbreeze]

Im the exact opposite, I want more tee boxes on courses. It opens the doors up for more skill levels. And at a course like this if I am paying 150k initiation fee to play a course like this every day, I want to be able to have it change up weekly.

Love this thought, and my home course right now is doing just this. We only had black, blue, white, then red for the ladies. The only real difference between the Black blue and white is yardage now they have added two tee boxes in different locations on almost every hole, now there will be silver and gold tees along with the other existing tees to give you more options depending on the day. i'm really looking forward to this.

 

[Dent]

If I were you I would maybe work on hitting those wedges to within 8 feet, that would really help your game. The long game can only be so good and then it is subject to rub of the green and other factors, vagaries of the wind or whatever, but if you are hitting that many wedges into greens you could really knock down some great scores by dialing those wedges in close. Just a thought.

I totally agree dog. I am having trouble even hitting greens with the wedges and there is a common distance problem or a small miss onto the fringe. This is something I am really going to work on to lower my scores. None the less you make a great point.

 

[cj3ap2]

I can understand that. I wonder how many people actually use the different tee boxes, I'd imagine at most courses there are 2 or 3 tee boxes that get used a ton and 2 or 3 others that are barely ever touched; so having that opinion is part of the reason I find so many extra boxes unnecessary. I'm just lazy and don't want to have to take 5 minutes to decipher where on a new course I should be playing.

I know the easy thing is to look at numbers and yardage, but courses are set up to play to different yardages and slope. Just because I play the whites on a coures that's a 69.3/119, doesn't mean I should be playing the green tee's on that watson course, as the watson course is set up to be longer and more difficult. I want to go to a course and know what tee I should be playing from because it's the same every where, if a course is longer/more difficult or shorter/easier (obviously the two aren't always equal, long courses aren't necessarily harder, etc), I want to be comfortable knowing that I'm playing and challenging myself from the same tee's I normally play; not wondering if i'm playing a tee to far back or a tee to far forward.

 

[JB]

I can understand that. I wonder how many people actually use the different tee boxes, I'd imagine at most courses there are 2 or 3 tee boxes that get used a ton and 2 or 3 others that are barely ever touched; so having that opinion is part of the reason I find so many extra boxes unnecessary. I'm just lazy and don't want to have to take 5 minutes to decipher where on a new course I should be playing.

I think that might be a geography thing perhaps. In this area, I think all tee boxes get used pretty often.

 

[cj3ap2]

I think that might be a geography thing perhaps. In this area, I think all tee boxes get used pretty often.

perhaps, and perhaps it's why most courses (unless it's a really fancy high end facility) only have the black-blue-white-red combo. A lot of courses around here don't even have the black. That's why around here all you'll generally ever see are the ladies/seniors on the reds, the scratch golfers on the blue's, everybody else on the white's.

I suppose geography plays a part as there are going to be more golfers in the south which equals a wider variety of golfers playing a wider variety of tees...just as well the culture of it. As I said about where people play here (from my experience), that's just where you play, it's where everybody plays, it's where you learn to play. The idea of having 6 tee boxes and playing from 3 or 4 different ones on occasion is a foreign concept to me, as it's an idea around my area i've never encountered before

 

[Griff]

The only time I consider length is how much time I have to play. If I am in a time crunch I will play a shorter 9 holes. Otherwise the course's length is what it is.

 

[mikedean441]

I usually play around 6600 yards, I really need to swallow my pride and move up another set until I can get my game more fine tuned

 

[McRock]

I guess it means I'm average, at least according to the 5-iron yardage x 36 approach. And I'm perfectly ok with that.

 

[Tadashi70]

I just read his article and his statement is based on playing with average golfers and his course design work, overall guidelines for the average golfer 6200/men's, 5000/women, 5400/senior and 4700/senior women.
He goes in to say his course design provides at least 4 sets of tees with those guide lines in mind. Seems pretty logical and fair too me.


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[JB]

In a nice definition of irony, check out the Conservatory at Hammock Beach score card.

A Tom Watson designed course.

Scorecard
Tee Par Yards Slope Rating
Black 72 7776 155 78.4
Gold 72 7300 151 76.6
Blue 72 6792 142 74
White 72 6471 135 71.3
Green72 6001 132 70.1
Red 72 5525 127 67.8

I just read his article and his statement is based on playing with average golfers and his course design work, overall guidelines for the average golfer 6200/men's, 5000/women, 5400/senior and 4700/senior women.
He goes in to say his course design provides at least 4 sets of tees with those guide lines in mind. Seems pretty logical and fair too me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So based on his article and his guidelines for his courses I would love to know why his course was designed with these lengths. It would seem that the average golfer for the most part is relegated to the front tees or one back and that seniors and ladies must play from the very forward tees.

Why would HE not even make tees around the distance he says most amateurs should play from?

 

[biggsy]

So based on his article and his guidelines for his courses I would love to know why his course was designed with these lengths. It would seem that the average golfer for the most part is relegated to the front tees or one back and that seniors and ladies must play from the very forward tees.

Why would HE not even make tees around the distance he says most amateurs should play from?

Maybe it was in hopes of holding a good amateur or professional tournament?

 

[JB]

Maybe it was in hopes of holding a good amateur or professional tournament?

Maybe...Quite possibly. At the same time it is a resort and its hard to tell people to come and enjoy this amazing resort....and oh by the way, based on my beliefs, you visitors really shouldnt play my course.

 

[biggsy]

Maybe...Quite possibly. At the same time it is a resort and its hard to tell people to come and enjoy this amazing resort....and oh by the way, based on my beliefs, you visitors really shouldnt play my course.

I don't know why they make some resort courses so incredibly difficult. Most the people playing are going to lose a dozen balls or more. I wouldn't think that would be very fun.

 

[bogey_russ]

length of courses are kinda misleading without slope/course rating
ive played the tips of 5900 par 70 and wish i didnt... par 3's were monstrous... blind shots everywhere on 4s and really short par5's that were ridiculous
and ive played 6200 on a 7200 yrd course and it seemed wayyy too short/easy (really flat course with absolutely no trouble except a tree or two)

 

[Sean]

Move UP! I've Been Asking the Powers That Be to Get Involved!!

Maybe they listened: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-05/golf-barney-adams-forward-tees

"Unfortunately golfers are masochists," Jack Nicklaus says. "They want a challenge but they end up playing the wrong tees."

By Jaime Diaz
Golf Digest
May 16, 2011

Barney Adams is championing the idea of shortening the courses we play. By a lot. Like most of the best big ideas, it's essentially simple.

According to retired clubmaker Barney Adams -- with important support from the USGA, the PGA of America and the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America -- the great majority of golfers should move up off the tee and play courses from a shorter distance. And not just a little. At least 500 yards in most cases, which at some courses would put the so-called "men's tees" pretty close to the "ladies' tees." And women should move way up -- about 1,000 yards.

It's all in the interest of recapturing some of the fun that everyday golf has been losing, along with speeding up play and making the experience more attractive to core golfers, occasional players and beginners.

The general idea is not new. Average golfers have never hit the ball as far as they think they do, nor do they reach as many greens as they think (let alone hit them in regulation). The statement "I can get it out there 300 when I really catch one," is the game's most common fish story.

But in the past few years, delusions have grown as average players have been pounded with the message that equipment innovations have dramatically increased their distance. At the same time, they've felt the need to hit it farther as many of the courses they play -- especially the newer "championship" layouts -- have become longer.

The takeaway has been slower play, higher green fees and more frustration. Golf has been losing players -- women and youth leaving in the greatest numbers -- and getting few replacements.

"Unfortunately, golfers are masochists," says Jack Nicklaus. "They want a challenge but end up playing from the wrong tees. The game needs to become more concise."

The urgency of that mind-set has opened up the game to the previously off-putting idea of playing "up." But this time, it has been accompanied by a well-reasoned "why."

It comes from Adams, an incisive thinker with a populist bent. The inventor of the Tight Lies fairway wood and a former clubfitter who spent years studying how people really hit the ball as opposed to how they think they do, Adams can't stop analyzing golfers. Carrying a 9-handicap at 72, Adams started noticing that his playing partners, all avid regular golfers, would play par 4s from tees that required them to hit woods and hybrids for approaches -- when they could reach the green at all. "I began to think it was like golfers have had a toothache for a long time," Adams says. "They've gotten used to the wrong thing."

In trying to figure out what the right thing should be, Adams first considered tour pros and how they rarely need more than a middle iron for an approach. "We watch them and think, 'Man, wouldn't it be fun to play the game like that?'" Adams says. "Well, we can."

Adams came up with a system he calls Tour Length. He calculated that for a pro to hit the same clubs on approaches as an amateur averaging 230-yard drives on a 6,700-yard course, the pro's course would have to measure at least 8,100 yards. Conversely, for the 230-yard driver to hit the same clubs into greens as the pro would on a 7,300-yard layout, the amateur would have to play at no more than 6,200 yards.

By Adams' calculation, this means the amateur who drives the ball 200 yards (closer to what the average golfer achieves) should be playing courses measuring about 6,000 yards. Many women, routinely forced to play tees in the 5,600-yard range despite hitting drives of about 140 yards, should be playing from approximately 4,600 yards.

Adams posted his findings on the Internet (in the January Golf Digest, he advocated moving up a set of tees), and he received a positive response. But his persistence at lobbying for his idea was most meaningfully rewarded by American golf's powers that be. Beginning in late May, the USGA, the PGA of America and the GCSAA will begin a campaign -- with the tentative handle of Play It Forward -- to convince golfers to move up. It will start with television segments during the Senior PGA Championship, the U.S. Open and the U.S. Women's Open. Then the organizations will urge course operators across the nation to set aside two weeks beginning July 5 in which they ask customers to play from a shorter set of tees, following Adams' guidelines.

"We really think this could be a very good thing for the game," says USGA executive director Mike Davis. "We want to get the message out that playing shorter golf courses with less rough will increase enjoyment."

Paul Metzler, senior director of marketing for the PGA of America, says the organization's surveys have determined that despite suggestions to the contrary, golfers don't want the rules of the game altered to make it easier. They want to play the traditional game, but in a way in which a round moves along more easily and with a greater opportunity for memorable shots. "It's going to require some time for the culture to fully adopt it, but we believe that's what Barney's idea will do," Metzler says. "Now it's up to golf's leadership to make Play it Forward part of the culture."

Adams is gratified at the support and hopes the effort will be aggressive. "This has to be a movement, so that in essence it becomes the new golf," he says. "I believe this is legacy stuff for these guys. But it's crucial that the message be a leveling of the playing field between the amateurs and the professionals. If you don't get that message across, you lose."

Adams' biggest worry is the power and stubbornness of the male ego. "That's the highest hurdle," he says. "Amateurs who think they can hit pro-type shots and want to play from back tees don't realize that with equipment advances they're farther behind where pros hit the ball than ever. What was maybe a 40-yard difference 25 years ago is now 75 yards.

"Those are the guys who say, 'Gee, Barney, you have a great idea. I hope they do something about it.' I say to them, 'Who the hell is THEY? YOU'RE they.' "

Adams emphasizes that his proposal is more nuanced than mathematical shortening. He wants to stagger tees so that short par 3s maintain their length but at least one par 5 per course is reachable in two for the average player. "I think it'll encourage people to think more about their shots to the green, rather than just blasting another wood," he says.

"That brings in shotmaking, even for an average player, and that's what really makes the game interesting." For all that, Adams doesn't believe scoring will be dramatically affected.

"Maybe a 13-handicap becomes a 10," he says. "That's where the USGA would have to really get involved, to make sure handicaps don't lose equitableness.

"This is about a change of habits, which is always hard," Adams says, "but I think golfers are more aware than ever that the game lost its way, and a correction is needed."

If they -- make that we -- are able to check egos at the golf-shop door, Adams has contributed a big idea whose time has come.

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-05/golf-barney-adams-forward-tees#ixzz1Nfl6s7Rr

A Chart from GHIN.com

TEE IT FORWARD
Guidelines for Selecting Tees
Driver Distance Recommended
18 Hole Yardages
PGA Tour Pro 7,600 - 7,900
300 7,150 - 7,400
275 6,700 - 6,900
250 6,200 - 6,400
225 5,800 - 6,000
200 5,200 - 5,400
175 4,400 - 4,600
150 3,500 - 3,700
125 2,800 - 3,000
100 2,100 - 2,300

 

[Beowulf]

I am not sure i get what is being said. The pros play from a setup that is determined by the PGA(or whatever governing body) and in a lot of cases is from tee boxes that we amateurs would never use. I know a lot of mid HC that will play from a set of tees that offer the best advantage to actually par the hole, yet provide a challenge. I personally have stopped playing from the tips this year because my swing is slower and I feel that I am getting a good challenge from my courses white box. Most courses I play have four sets of tees(except on par 3's) this provides plenty of different yardages w/o compromising the playability of low HC and scratch golfers.
I also do not see the game losing its players. In fact, I would say just the opposite. Even in this economical recession/depression we are in my home clubs enrollment is up almost 7% and weekend golfers are there in great numbers. I believe that golfers do need to play realistically within their talent and ability, but a challenge is also necessary

 

[Snap Hook]

I am not sure i get what is being said. The pros play from a setup that is determined by the PGA(or whatever governing body) and in a lot of cases is from tee boxes that we amateurs would never use. I know a lot of mid HC that will play from a set of tees that offer the best advantage to actually par the hole, yet provide a challenge. I personally have stopped playing from the tips this year because my swing is slower and I feel that I am getting a good challenge from my courses white box. Most courses I play have four sets of tees(except on par 3's) this provides plenty of different yardages w/o compromising the playability of low HC and scratch golfers.
I also do not see the game losing its players. In fact, I would say just the opposite. Even in this economical recession/depression we are in my home clubs enrollment is up almost 7% and weekend golfers are there in great numbers. I believe that golfers do need to play realistically within their talent and ability, but a challenge is also necessary

While I do agree with what you're saying. If Golf Wasn't challenging why would we even bother playing it? But I don't think they're trying to get rid of challenging all together. I feel they're trying to get the golfing nation on a whole back closer to par. Less strokes would mean a quicker round and a more enjoyable time for all of us.

 

[Sean]

Yes, but the pros hit irons in to par 4s. How many times have you played and seen guys hitting hybrids/woods into par 4s?