Direct to consumer ball news....

[Et Tu Brute?]

A ball either works well or it doesn't. And it costs what it costs.

How can it be a bad thing for consumers if four different companies offer him identical or near-identical balls that work well for him, all of them priced at $25 a dozen?

This is the sort of thing which only "offends" the sort of person who thinks he's smart enough to figure out what ball is best based on the factory it was made in, the number of layers and what color the rubber is in the core.

 

[-CRW-]

I haven't followed golf in years so this is new to me. Also there are new golfers getting into the game everyday. Not everyone follows golf equipment news as rabid as people on here.

This is how I feel. We shouldn't be smug because we knew better. It makes us look like jerks to outsiders looking in (e.g., the average golf consumer versus the online golf fanatic).

 

[McLovin]

This is the sort of thing which only "offends" the sort of person who thinks he's smart enough to figure out what ball is best based on the factory it was made in, the number of layers and what color the rubber is in the core.

that's a part of this that has irked me, but i'm not smart enough to answer my own question: if two balls have the same color core, is that proof that they're the same ball? is it not possible that the core composition is different, even if it's the same color? i honestly don't know, but simply cutting a ball open doesn't seem to be a very scientific way of definitively "proving" that two products are identical. admittedly, i don't consume that other site's content at all, so i haven't read whether they dug any deeper.

 

[Molten]

Of course you can. All you need to do is call the Asian company, order a few thousand and tell them to stamp your logo on it. "Molten Lava balls, hotter than the ProV1." Throw up some adverts and buy ad space on golf websites. Its exactly what many of these DTC companies do.

What you describe is the opposite of doing it on their own (ie calling another company to do it). We appear to be saying the same thing here, i think.

 

[-CRW-]

A ball either works well or it doesn't. And it costs what it costs.

How can it be a bad thing for consumers if four different companies offer him identical or near-identical balls that work well for him, all of them priced at $25 a dozen?

This is the sort of thing which only "offends" the sort of person who thinks he's smart enough to figure out what ball is best based on the factory it was made in, the number of layers and what color the rubber is in the core.

It's a little deeper than that. Vice is charging $25-35 depending on how many dozen you buy, shipping, source (Amazon vs. Vice). If the Pro is the ball for you from their lineup, wouldn't you want to know if it's the exact same as the Rife E-Motion which can still be purchased online for $10 a dozen? I would.

It's not about attacking the choices. I like the DTC concept, and have no issue playing one if it works for me. It's about being informed to the highest degree possible, so that I can make the best decision possible for me/my game - whether that is based on cost, performance, or a combination thereof.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

that's a part of this that has irked me, but i'm not smart enough to answer my own question: if two balls have the same color core, is that proof that they're the same ball? is it not possible that the core composition is different, even if it's the same color? i honestly don't know, but simply cutting a ball open doesn't seem to be a very scientific way of definitively "proving" that two products are identical. admittedly, i don't consume that other site's content at all, so i haven't read whether they dug any deeper.

You don't misunderstand anything, you are 100% correct. All this forensic golf-ball-cutting stuff is just social media clickbait. Kangaroo Court stuff.

 

[golfunfiltered]

I can "kind of" see where, if brands are legitimately claiming they are manufacturing products and they are not, this is an issue. I'm not seeing where that is happening. If anything, I'm seeing language like "We offer premium golf balls" from many of the brands mentioned.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

It's a little deeper than that. Vice is charging $25-35 depending on how many dozen you buy, shipping, source (Amazon vs. Vice). If the Pro is the ball for you from their lineup, wouldn't you want to know if it's the exact same as the Rife E-Motion which can still be purchased online for $10 a dozen? I would.

It's not about attacking the choices. I like the DTC concept, and have no issue playing one if it works for me.

You can always find a cheaper deal on the same ball, one way or another. Like this years TP5? At some point over the next year or two you'll be able to find them for around $20/dozen in some quantity or another.

There are white-label products in almost any consumer goods you name, short of automobiles or prescription meds. If you are going to lose sleep over having paid $30 for something you woulda, coulda, shoulda bought somewhere else for $25...well, you're not going to get much sleep!

 

[JB]

that's a part of this that has irked me, but i'm not smart enough to answer my own question: if two balls have the same color core, is that proof that they're the same ball? is it not possible that the core composition is different, even if it's the same color? i honestly don't know, but simply cutting a ball open doesn't seem to be a very scientific way of definitively "proving" that two products are identical. admittedly, i don't consume that other site's content at all, so i haven't read whether they dug any deeper.

Cores are colored so at a factory they can be sorted easier. For instance touring the Titleist, Bridgestone and Callaway ball factories, they switch colors routinely, but a core from Chrome Soft will be a different color during manufacturing than that of a Super Soft. You are correct in your assessment, at the same time, it could just as easily be the same ball. Although if you believe that news to be fact, it does bring a second question, which has been posed numerous times in this thread about the previous testing that website did, and if they are all the same, all the balls should fair identically based on the belief of some on robot strikes.

We shared this news in the article linked earlier in this thread back in 2018 and again numerous times in the Costco ball thread. Which was none of it matters if the ball is working for the individual, whether that be because of performance, logo, taking a crap that morning or anything else. Although we believe that as the core golfer and equipment educated consumers that THPers are, that quality control and background does matter a little bit. With that said, dictating to the golfer what is best, is agenda laden at the worst and impossible to please all at the best.

We have information to suggest a myriad of things, but it wouldn't be fair to either the companies or the websites for it to be made public about certain items that have been in the news as of late. Instead we will continue to give information, and look to THPers to provide feedback on the products and tell us what they like best, rather than the other way around.

 

[golfunfiltered]

From VICE Golf's About Us page:

VICE Golf offers premium golf balls - R&A and USGA conforming - for unbeatable prices. The golf balls are engineered in Germany and feature sophisticated

 

[golfunfiltered]

We shared this news in the article linked earlier in this thread back in 2018 and again numerous times in the Costco ball thread. Which was none of it matters if the ball is working for the individual, whether that be because of performance, logo, taking a crap that morning or anything else. Although we believe that as the core golfer and equipment educated consumers that THPers are, that quality control and background does matter a little bit. With that said, dictating to the golfer what is best, is agenda laden at the worst and impossible to please all at the best.

I'll design that test.

 

[-CRW-]

You don't misunderstand anything, you are 100% correct. All this forensic golf-ball-cutting stuff is just social media clickbait. Kangaroo Court stuff.

I disagree. Occam's Razor - when presented with competing hypotheses that make the same predictions, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions. Therefore, if 3 (or more) balls have the same dimple pattern, have the same number and color layers, and are made by the same manufacturer, they are the same ball. At least until one of the sellers prove otherwise.

To compound the issue, you have an expert in the field (Dean Snell) warning that this stuff is going on. Which is why he's so forthcoming on being involved as much in the manufacturing process as he can be and bends over backwards to give the consumer all the information he can.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Anyone with a room temperature IQ should be able to suss that "engineered in..." is code for "not manufactured in...", surely? If they were made in Germany it is 100% certain that their marketing bumpf would say "MADE IN GERMANY" in a very large font!

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I disagree. Occam's Razor - when presented with competing hypotheses that make the same predictions, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions. Therefore, if 3 (or more) balls have the same dimple pattern, have the same number and color layers, and are made by the same manufacturer, they are the same ball. At least until one of the sellers prove otherwise.

To compound the issue, you have an expert in the field (Dean Snell) warning that this stuff is going on. Which is why he's so forthcoming on being involved as much in the manufacturing process as he can be and bends over backwards to give the consumer all the information he can.

Dean is a redoubtable resource but we hardly need him to tell us that there are white-label golf ball factories in Asia. Anyone who doesn't know that simply has never bothered to think about it.

But when he says there are numerous identical models being given different branding, he does not specify the specific brands and models he is referring to. And you can't figure it out by cutting open balls and comparing colors.

 

[-CRW-]

Dean is a redoubtable resource but we hardly need him to tell us that there are white-label golf ball factories in Asia. Anyone who doesn't know that simply has never bothered to think about it.

But when he says there are numerous identical models being given different branding, he does not specify the specific brands and models he is referring to. And you can't figure it out by cutting open balls and comparing colors.

If you think these aren't the same ball, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'd love to sell you.

 

[Molten]

I haven't followed golf in years so this is new to me. Also there are new golfers getting into the game everyday. Not everyone follows golf equipment news as rabid as people on here.

Everything is new to some and should be exposed over and over as long as there are companies who are stealing patents and getting around the system by manufacturing balls out of the country. Then marketing the balls to people as comparable but cheaper because they get around the middle man.

I wonder what Titleist's legal fees are per year having to litigate their patents over and over and how much of that cost is into each ball. Sadly the two sleezy Vice owners are going to walk away with millions even after Titleist puts their company out of business. Everyone wins but the consumer.

Two separate things here: first paragraph, totally agree. Getting the information out there is good.

Second and third paragraph - a lot of misinformation. I’ll try to be quick but ask any follow ups you have: titleist’s IP isn’t on every golf ball; manufacturing overseas doesn’t avoid liability at all so where it is made is meaningless; there is nothing inherently sleezy about Vice competing. Vice was sued in 2015 and Titleist voluntarily dismissed under 41(a)(1)(ii) (read - no settlement, Acushnet dropped the case).

Titleist has very low or no patent litigation fees year over year - they don’t have a single active golf ball case. Since 2015, they only had Costco and that was a very, very short one. Titleist also had the “Golf Gods Pty” but they was a whole separate issue and was really about trademarks than anything else.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

Two separate things here: first paragraph, totally agree. Getting the information out there is good.

Second and third paragraph - a lot of misinformation. I’ll try to be quick but ask any follow ups you have: titleist’s IP isn’t on every golf ball; manufacturing overseas doesn’t avoid liability at all so where it is made is meaningless; there is nothing inherently sleezy about Vice competing. Vice was sued in 2015 and Titleist voluntarily dismissed under 41(a)(1)(ii) (read - no settlement, Acushnet dropped the case).

Titleist has very low or no patent litigation fees year over year - they don’t have a single active golf ball case. Since 2015, they only had Costco and that was a very, very short one. Titleist also had the “Golf Gods Pty” but they was a whole separate issue and was really about trademarks than anything else.

Let me commend you on the most polite takedown of the week!

 

[Paladin]

that's a part of this that has irked me, but i'm not smart enough to answer my own question: if two balls have the same color core, is that proof that they're the same ball? is it not possible that the core composition is different, even if it's the same color? i honestly don't know, but simply cutting a ball open doesn't seem to be a very scientific way of definitively "proving" that two products are identical. admittedly, i don't consume that other site's content at all, so i haven't read whether they dug any deeper.

Technically, it's entirely possible that core/mantle materials of identical colors are totally different compositions. But given what we know of the DTC golf ball industry, I'm inclined to think that if two things walk like ducks and quack like ducks and look like ducks, one of them is not a peregrine falcon. They're almost certainly both ducks.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

I always go with dimple count. If two balls have 402 dimples, there's NO WAY you can tell me they aren't identical balls.

 

[Molten]

Let me commend you on the most polite takedown of the week!

Not intended to be a takedown at all - it’s a complex topic and I just provide the insight I can when it comes up. It’s the reason I get paid the medium bucks.

 

[Jman]

But wait, there’s more, I deleted this part the first post but, well, to hell with it.

I read everything everyone out there does, so, I find it funny that this whole ‘uproar’ directly contradicts some recent massive testing done because if these balls are the same, which we know they are now, then they should have all tested the same, no?

Also, remember the Costco love train? Those are essentially these golf balls too, different factory and formula (every time they order them) but it’s the same thing, generic golf balls but Costco was praised and heralded for it by the same outlets?

Things that make me go, hmm.

I’m quoting this because it’s still true.

 

[Sooner21]

From what I have been told, by them, they do not do their own manufacturing.
They did tell me they design their own golf ball however.

You're spot on. I got a response from the co-founder and VP of sales. He was pretty confident that their balls are strictly their balls. Their design is pretty different than a lot of other companies, so I think it wouldn't fit with the large batch different name theory.

 

[erock9174]

I'd just like to read the "new" information ? I doubt a link can be put up on here but can somebody PM it?

 

[Alez367]

You think if we ask them for names of the experts they worked with on the testing and the exact methodology (what 7i and driver) was used during they would answer?


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[JB]

I always go with dimple count. If two balls have 402 dimples, there's NO WAY you can tell me they aren't identical balls.

Well, Bridgestone had 4 balls that all had 330 dimples and they all had different cores, so there is that.