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Sam Bennett is a problem

MWard said:
While you’re doing your thing, I should be doing mine. Goes for on the green too, which is why it’s interesting that some aimpointers wait until it’s their turn to do anything. I don’t get it. If you’re not on their line and your movement isn’t interfering, be efficient. You can always do something during your waiting.
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This might not be the right place for it - but I have to disagree with it on the greens.

While yes, you can do something - if I'm walking around, putting my shadow over your line or checking out different angles while putting I don't think that people would enjoy that very much.

Also, since the furthest person out putts first, everyone else might be inside of that line and field of view especially if one is long and one is short you'll be looking directly into the path or someone else. I have found out that most people want you to stand behind them or back and to the side when putting, not walking the green doing your own thing.
 
Paladin said:
I agree. I'm simply pointing out that even if you are technically correct (the best kind of correct) some of this comes down to perception. There are probably plenty of tour players whose fellow tour players regard as very slow. Cantlay is a good example. He plays slow. Rounds get longer for players behind him. But the camera doesn't spend nearly as much of his pre-shot routine watching him over the ball, so there's less perception of his being slow compared to Bennett (in my opinion.) So Cantlay, like Furyk before him, is slow but the powers that be have figured out how to manage that into the collective presentation of their play within the story they are telling of Sunday at the Masters.

My point is, Bennett is both literally a slow player in that he likely exceeds the 60/40 second clock to hit when it's his turn (30 seconds over the ball means ~30 seconds to talk to your caddie and pick a club, which seems like not a lot of time for the 12th at Augusta, for example) but also is perceptually a slow player. Anyone who watched him in person and especially on TV watched him spent a lot of time going through a part where they cannot look away because he might, at some point in the very near future, strike the golf ball. I think that is what lends to so much frustration with the pace of his play.
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100% agree, and it sucks. We all can agree he is slow. TV magically makes him within 40 seconds. GREAT, now the problem is hidden and the type of player who thinks this is okay (young amateurs) mimic it. I think this really comes down to Patrick Cantlay and how this is mostly his fault. We’ll just get to that realization eventually…
 
MWard said:
100% agree, and it sucks. We all can agree he is slow. TV magically makes him within 40 seconds. GREAT, now the problem is hidden and the type of player who thinks this is okay (young amateurs) mimic it. I think this really comes down to Patrick Cantlay and how this is mostly his fault. We’ll just get to that realization eventually…
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i don't think it's just a mimicking. i believe this is taught at the elite junior level. which means the problem will never sort itself out until penalties force change.
 
penalties aren't the answer, learning good behavior is the answer.

kids don't play enough golf with adults.
get the kids on your course involved in your game.
not in the game, in your game.
 
MWard said:
Someone please make me feel better and tell me it was normal to know it was 2013 off the top of my head :(
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Totally normal…





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I'm sure someone has mentioned this already but don't they have to be "out of position" and get a warning before they even get put on the clock? Was any group out of position at the Masters yesterday or was it just slow all the way around. The announcers commented several times that there was a group on the green, one in the fairway, and the leaders on the tee box.
 
McLovin said:
i don't think it's just a mimicking. i believe this is taught at the elite junior level. which means the problem will never sort itself out until penalties force change.
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I doubt that looking up at the flag, which hasn't moved in the meantime, more times than you can count on one hand, is taught at any level.
 
captaincaution said:
I doubt that looking up at the flag, which hasn't moved in the meantime, more times than you can count on one hand, is taught at any level.
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That's what gets me about him. Watching the shuffle, regrip, look up, look down, look up, look down, regrip, shuffle, regrip, look up, look down, look up, shuffle, look down.

It's like he's trying to enter some version of the konami code.
 
captaincaution said:
I doubt that looking up at the flag, which hasn't moved in the meantime, more times than you can count on one hand, is taught at any level.
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No, the but bigger philosophy of "don't swing until you're ready" can and does lead to a narrower and narrower perception of "ready" that promotes the perception of "I don't have to swing until I think everything is perfect" that creates this laborious routine.
 
McLovin said:
i don't think it's just a mimicking. i believe this is taught at the elite junior level. which means the problem will never sort itself out until penalties force change.
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Pretty much, and you know no organization wants to be the first to keep a person from winning because of slow play. There's always an issue of grey area as well. The entire group gets put on the clock since the group is out of position, not just player A. So let's say you and I are playing in the final group. I suck, you're playing lights out that day. My buddy is also playing lights out in the group in front of us. If I slow play us and put our group on the clock, is it fair that you may have a bad time on a shot sequence due to a pretty understandable reason? You get dinged and my buddy wins, and I was the problem all day? Boy that would be pretty BS.

FWIW, Koepka has said in interviews that sometimes if he's paired with a slow player, he'll play even slower just to get the group put on the clock so it throws the slower player out of rhythm. He knows he can and does play fast. The Cantlay's of the game? Do they even know what fast means?
 
RayG said:
"Slow Play' isn't an overnight problem on tour either- it's starts in Juniors and HS, and College. This should have been nipped in the bud a loooong time ago for him. Somewhere, coaching has gone wrong.
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This. The slowest golfers I see by far at my club, are the really good high school, college, and sub-30 year olds golfers. Coaching went way wrong somewhere along the line.
 
MWard said:
Pretty much, and you know no organization wants to be the first to keep a person from winning because of slow play. There's always an issue of grey area as well. The entire group gets put on the clock since the group is out of position, not just player A. So let's say you and I are playing in the final group. I suck, you're playing lights out that day. My buddy is also playing lights out in the group in front of us. If I slow play us and put our group on the clock, is it fair that you may have a bad time on a shot sequence due to a pretty understandable reason? You get dinged and my buddy wins, and I was the problem all day? Boy that would be pretty BS.

FWIW, Koepka has said in interviews that sometimes if he's paired with a slow player, he'll play even slower just to get the group put on the clock so it throws the slower player out of rhythm. He knows he can and does play fast. The Cantlay's of the game? Do they even know what fast means?
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I've said for a long time that the fix for slow play on tour is for a player to walk to the first tee box, shake their official's hand, and immediately ask to be put on the clock. I suppose the perception is that that would be a form as gamesmanship, whereas playing slow isn't.
 
Daluteh said:
This might not be the right place for it - but I have to disagree with it on the greens.

While yes, you can do something - if I'm walking around, putting my shadow over your line or checking out different angles while putting I don't think that people would enjoy that very much.

Also, since the furthest person out putts first, everyone else might be inside of that line and field of view especially if one is long and one is short you'll be looking directly into the path or someone else. I have found out that most people want you to stand behind them or back and to the side when putting, not walking the green doing your own thing.
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On the greens, people should use their heads and be courteous. If the guy furthest away on the green is walking his line figuring out his putt, guess what I'm not doing?

I am not waiting.

I am walking my line, getting behind the ball, and figuring out the putt while he is moving around. I attempt to stay out of his way. If I'm in his way, I stop or do something else.
 
captaincaution said:
I doubt that looking up at the flag, which hasn't moved in the meantime, more times than you can count on one hand, is taught at any level.
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no, that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying the disregard for pace of play, and the emphasis on routine and commitment before the swing.
 
Is it possible that people that take 10+ waggles before a hit are just doing a mind Fluck, to mess with the other players? I see no other reason for it.
 
McLovin said:
no, that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying the disregard for pace of play, and the emphasis on routine and commitment before the swing.
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I have no problem with routine, and being committed to the shot. But everything I have ever heard is that all of the thinking needs to happen before you address the ball. At that point, everything should be "mindless" routine. Something that can be trained. By the time he is looking up to the flag X amount of times (and I bet it is the same number every single time) he's already committed.

Commit to a shorter routine.

If MLB batters can do it, so can golfers at all levels.
 
Some interesting perspectives and this is one topic I struggle with. I am firmly in the camp that I hate being rushed or feel like I am rushed because someone else's perspective of slow really isn't slow, it's just that person is impatient or really fast. That said Cantlay is slow and has been for years. No excuse for him this past weekend as you can see it visually affected the leaders behind them waiting a lot.

For Bennett I am not entirely convinced he is egregiously slow. I would like him to focus better before he addresses the ball and I think that changes the perception that he is slow. Several time this past weekend I timed him as soon as he addressed the ball and it was anywhere between 12-16 seconds before he swung the club. As a comparison I timed Brooks when they were paired up and he was in the 10-12 second range once he addressed the ball.

My point is that slow play is an issue and absolutely needs to be addressed, but the perspective gets skewed when you have someone who plays quicker than normal and gets impatient because others are not playing as fast as they are.
 
lambeau said:
penalties aren't the answer, learning good behavior is the answer.

kids don't play enough golf with adults.
get the kids on your course involved in your game.
not in the game, in your game.
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Docking FedEx points is the answer
 
I'll pile on. This kid has great game obviously, but until he fixes this pace issue he won't find me in his corner.

I just don't understand how golf tournaments have no effective tools in the toolbox to keep things moving. It needs to change.
 
mikeg_74 said:
Some interesting perspectives and this is one topic I struggle with. I am firmly in the camp that I hate being rushed or feel like I am rushed because someone else's perspective of slow really isn't slow, it's just that person is impatient or really fast. That said Cantlay is slow and has been for years. No excuse for him this past weekend as you can see it visually affected the leaders behind them waiting a lot.

For Bennett I am not entirely convinced he is egregiously slow. I would like him to focus better before he addresses the ball and I think that changes the perception that he is slow. Several time this past weekend I timed him as soon as he addressed the ball and it was anywhere between 12-16 seconds before he swung the club. As a comparison I timed Brooks when they were paired up and he was in the 10-12 second range once he addressed the ball.

My point is that slow play is an issue and absolutely needs to be addressed, but the perspective gets skewed when you have someone who plays quicker than normal and gets impatient because others are not playing as fast as they are.
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Id be curious to see that 12-16 seconds, because every example out there seems to be over 30 at address. Now combine that with the caddy conversation, getting distance, choosing a club, practice swing(s) and walking into setup and he was WELL over the time limit allowed.
 
JB said:
Id be curious to see that 12-16 seconds, because every example out there seems to be over 30 at address. Now combine that with the caddy conversation, getting distance, choosing a club, practice swing(s) and walking into setup and he was WELL over the time limit allowed.
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My timing as based on when the tv camera showed him "walking" into addressing his ball, including the putts. I agree before he needs to be quicker with getting data and analyzing that between shots.
 
JB said:
Id be curious to see that 12-16 seconds, because every example out there seems to be over 30 at address. Now combine that with the caddy conversation, getting distance, choosing a club, practice swing(s) and walking into setup and he was WELL over the time limit allowed.
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12-16 second clips don’t get the clicks the 30 second ones do. There were plenty of times he (I don’t want to say only, but I will) only peeked at the hole two or three times after setup.
 
mikeg_74 said:
My timing as based on when the tv camera showed him "walking" into addressing his ball, including the putts. I agree before he needs to be quicker with getting data and analyzing that between shots.
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12-16 seconds and I dont think anybody would ever say a word. There are so many examples out there of him taking over 30 from setup including multiple in this thread. Which of course goes back to the US Am where all of this started because the opponents were not thrilled with it.

He seems like a great young man and it is an amazing story. But standing at setup for 30+ seconds on each shot should not be accepted. The trickle down effect in golf is so real.
 
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