Almost came to blows today....rules and etiquette help please!

[WWPSD]

OK...so our club's 2-man best-ball match play semi-final match was today and it got ugly before it got started and I will try to keep this brief. This is an 80% handicap event...very important.

First the stats:

Me a 16
My teammate a +3
Their player A was a 2
Their player B was an 8

They get to the first tee and we see that the computer generated scorecard had ink all over it changing my teammates handicap and adding extra holes with strokes for their team. We questioned this and they stated that they explained to the clubhouse that the computer was wrong and that his handicap should not come back towards 0 like everyone else and should continue going further from 0 in the positive direction. We called the clubhouse and they would not listen to our case and said that it was wrong for the first three rounds because the computer does not "properly adjust" for a positive hcp.

We said what-ever and were not happy...my teammate said something to the nature of "ok, if you guys can playing knowing you are getting more then the rules should be"...and their player B blew at at that statement. He pointed his finger in his face and said that we were "tainting the match at the start and insinuating that they were intentionally being dishonest". He felt the need to go on and tell us how "honest" they are, and that his teammate was known to be "the most honest player at the club". We started play after getting things under control and you could cut the tension in the match with a dull golf ball.

They were 3 up after 11 and on the 12th hole the pro comes driving to the fairway and gets us all together and says "sorry guys, we have never had a + player in an 80% event and what the other team explained to him made sense and he went with it. He said after we questioned it it got his thinking and he looked up the rule from the USGA and found that my teammate was correct.

Here is where it gets even more angering from out standpoint. Right away my teammate and I said "dead-day, we have to play it over another day". They said no, lets just go back and adjust where needed and play it out. (side not...the 8 hcp was a -3 at this point in the round!!!!) It would have changed the score for 1 hole that we would have won instead of a half. So they said "we are just 2up instead of 3up and play on". We said BS...if we win 6 we walk off that green having won 5 and 6 and are Square instead of 1 down and chasing them. Plus...the mindset of my teammate was not great considering the situation and that the match was played under the wrong pretenses. Since we would not agree...the pro thought about it for a little while and finally said that it needed to be replayed.

We finished like this...we played out 12-18, clearly with less pressure but with even more tension.

Me 90 (74 net)
My teammate 69 (72 net)
Their A player 69 (67 net)
Their B player 71 (63 net)

Very angering situation.

 

[Diane]

WWPSD - What is an 80% handicap event mean?

 

[WWPSD]

Here is what has me pissed about them...

1. You do not get angry and fell the need to prove your honesty unless you have been questioned before or if you have something to hide.

2. They demanded an apology from my teammate about his comment, but when it was found that my teammate was the correct person they did not apologize in any way about anything.

3. The Ink on the scorecard was clearly because they bitched to the pro about their thinking and convinced him to change the card giving them more strokes.

4. They felt that the match should continue!!! Really!!! If the shoe was on the other foot I am sure they would have wanted it replayed. Clearly because they, at least player B, was having a career day with a -1 even with a 2 doubles, one of them at the last hole.

5. I am not buying an 8 handicap shooting a 71 with 2 doubles...thus showing why 80% is used to help protect the even lower handicappers.

 

[WWPSD]

WWPSD - What is an 80% handicap event mean?

It means that if you are a 20 hcp you lose 4 shots and play as a 16. Everyone plays to 80% of your course hcp to help protect from sandbaggers. Obviously the higher handicappers lose more shots then lower handicappers. So the guy as an 8 should have dropped to a 7...the 2 guy stays a 2 since it drops him to a 1.6 which rounds up to 2....and my teammate's +3 should have come back to a +2...but they talked the shop into making him a +4 instead.

 

[JB]

This is exactly the reason I hate tourny play. People take it way too seriously. I am glad so many love it, but for me, I love the game far too much for this.

 

[WWPSD]

This is exactly the reason I hate tourny play. People take it way too seriously. I am glad so many love it, but for me, I love the game far too much for this.

Were we in the wrong for questioning it so intently in your opinion, even though we knew we were right? We said that before teeing off. "hey guys, we are all members just wanted to have a good fun and competition." My teammate even said...right after their player B got heated, "we don't have to play if you guys are going to be this angry about it, you guys can just take it...we don't want to make enemies over it"

 

[StLCardsFan]

That is why I hate handicap tournaments. Too many people complain and cheat and sandbag. Play a straight up tournament, may the best golfer win. Flight it afterward if you want to award multiple prizes.

 

[JB]

Were we in the wrong for questioning it so intently in your opinion, even though we knew we were right? We said that before teeing off. "hey guys, we are all members just wanted to have a good fun and competition." My teammate even said...right after their player B got heated, "we don't have to play if you guys are going to be this angry about it, you guys can just take it...we don't want to make enemies over it"

I dont necessarily think you were in the wrong, but I think before people got heated, it would have been easier just to go in and straighten everything out from the get go. While I think they were a little "over eager", I also think your teammate's comments were sarcastic and started the whole thing off on the wrong foot.

 

[Diane]

I agree with JB. Why not question the pro instead of the other guys before you started?

 

[WWPSD]

I dont necessarily think you were in the wrong, but I think before people got heated, it would have been easier just to go in and straighten everything out from the get go. While I think they were a little "over eager", I also think your teammate's comments were sarcastic and started the whole thing off on the wrong foot.

We tried to settle it before starting but they would not listen to logic and the pro in the shop would not a that time either...so we were really f'ed at that point. My teammates comments were a little condascending, but he was correct the whole time and they were being a$$ about why they were right and our first three rounds were played incorrectly. They actually said that to us...almost like we did not belong in the semis...my teammate's comment came after that nice exchange. Still not worth a finger pointed in the face and body language to a point where I seriously thought I was going to have to break it up.

Interestingly...their A player was quiet but matter-afact about why they were right...but was cordial the whole match...the other guys could not get past it the whole day...but then again he fired a 71 after this mess and should have had a 69!

 

[WWPSD]

I agree with JB. Why not question the pro instead of the other guys before you started?

We thought about saying something after 9 holes but just wanted to forget about it and get to business. We had the pro, (main pro was off today) on the phone from the start and he sided with them...saying also that the first three rounds were played incorrectly and he just hopes that it would not have made a difference. It was like we were the trouble makers.

 

[JB]

If you spoke to the pro and he sided with them, I would just forget about it. Like I said, I think they acted wrongly, but I do think your partner kind of triggered this whole thing. Its just golf and like I mentioned, exactly why I just want to enjoy the game.

 

[bama]

.......and my teammate's +3 should have come back to a +2...but they talked the shop into making him a +4 instead.

Trying to understand the 80% rule.
Is it not correct that your partner went to a +4?? I mean, is not that a better handicap than a +3??

All the other handicaps were progressing towards better handicaps with the 80% rule..
Should not the "+" player as well??

Again, I dont understand the 80% rule as we dont play this way...we do the flighting afterwards...

 

[Diane]

Ok - I just called my father who used to be the handicap chair at his club. He said that for a plus handicap - it would be 120% so your friend should have been a +4.

 

[JB]

According to my math, it seems he should be a +4 as well, and I just spoke to my "rules guy" and he said the same thing.

 

[provisional]

I will grab a friend, or family member and play these types of tournaments every so often. The difference is, I never expect too much out of them, score wise. HDCPs are designed for players to play each other on a level playing field, with respect to their individual skill. Once the HNDCP system deviates from the norm, all kinds of problem flare up. I play in these types of tournies to have fun, and because for the entry fee, with all the prizes, dinner, some drinks, and a few of laughs, you can't beat the price. I have in the past won some nice prizes from the raffle events that go along with these tournaments.

Other than a couple of short game competitions, I have never won a "pairs" tournament I entered. Seemed like there was always another team with net scores in the 50s winning all the time. My home course's mens' club has folks like this. 15 hdcprs shooting par for 18 holes.

As for your situation, it could have been handled more appropriately by both sides of the argument. You should have used a third party prior to teeing off on the first hole. The folks you were in the disagreement with are probably use to playing this way, while gaining a competitive edge, by getting their competition riled up. :comp:

 

[WWPSD]

Trying to understand the 80% rule.
Is it not correct that your partner went to a +4?? I mean, is not that a better handicap than a +3??

All the other handicaps were progressing towards better handicaps with the 80% rule..
Should not the "+" player as well??

Again, I dont understand the 80% rule as we dont play this way...we do the flighting afterwards...

Nope...the purpose of the handicap is to bring you closer to 0..not make you a better player. I do not have a link...but the pro came out later with a USGA print out that this was correct. You always take it back towards 0 so his 3 should have come to a +2. Therefor the other team got an extra 2 strokes each then what USGA rules allow.

You all are thinking the same way they did, and it make some logic, but also does not. Think about it this way...the 80% is designed to PROTECT the better players and take more strokes from the higher handicappers, and it does this all the way to 0...then why should it start punishing players on the plus side? Does that help? So a 20 would lose 4 shots...a 10 would lose 2 shots...a 5 would lose 1 shot a 3 would lose 1 shot...but a 0-2 will not lose anything. Now you get to the other side and those guys should either be treated as a 0 or come back towards 0 to continue the rule of rewarding the lower handicap.

I mean realistically, an 80% does reward lower handicaps, plain and simple, but it is also easier to higher handicappers to go far lower then their number, while it is not as likely for a 0 to shoot a 60.

 

[WWPSD]

According to my math, it seems he should be a +4 as well, and I just spoke to my "rules guy" and he said the same thing.

You guys are all going in the wrong direction here...see above. Our pro looked it up and corrected the situation back to our favor properly.

 

[JB]

Our rules guy has never heard of the lower or scratch players getting rewarded in this type of tourny. He said everybody SHOULD be treated the same. But again, that is why I say again, that is why I hate tourny play. Your thread title said it all. You almost came to blows over this. Its a localy club tourny. I think if everybody relaxed, this would not have ever happened.

 

[Diane]

I looked at the USGA site. It says the intent of using a percentage of your handicap is to bring everyone closer to zero. I understand that, but logic says to go the other way. You were correct.

Plus Handicaps​

When applying a percentage of Course Handicap to a plus
handicap player, it brings that player closer to zero. This occurs
in order to keep as close as possible the proper percentage of
disparity in handicap. For example, playing at 100 percent of
Course Handicap, the spread of two players, a +5 and 10 Course
Handicap, is 15 strokes. In a competition where 80 percent of
Course Handicap is utilized, the +5 becomes a +4 (+5 x 80%)
and the 10 becomes an 8 (10 x 80%). The difference between
their adjusted Course Handicap is 12, which is 80 percent of​

the original spread of 15 using 100 percent (15 x 80% = 12).

 

[WWPSD]

I looked at the USGA site. It says the intent of using a percentage of your handicap is to bring everyone closer to zero. I understand that, but logic says to go the other way. You were correct.

Plus Handicaps​

When applying a percentage of Course Handicap to a plus
handicap player, it brings that player closer to zero. This occurs
in order to keep as close as possible the proper percentage of
disparity in handicap. For example, playing at 100 percent of
Course Handicap, the spread of two players, a +5 and 10 Course
Handicap, is 15 strokes. In a competition where 80 percent of
Course Handicap is utilized, the +5 becomes a +4 (+5 x 80%)
and the 10 becomes an 8 (10 x 80%). The difference between
their adjusted Course Handicap is 12, which is 80 percent of​

the original spread of 15 using 100 percent (15 x 80% = 12).

Gracias:clapp:

What bothered my teammate so much was that he 100% new this fact...and they were all going of the logic that so many of you are thinking, and since it is so rarely run into, logic won out until the pro got thinking and wondering why we were so intent that they were wrong. He found what you did and ruled it correctly. HE had that exact rule that you posted printed out and in his hand to show the other team.

 

[JB]

Let me rephrase what I am trying to say in this whole thing. If you guys were right, my opinion is that your partner should have handled it differently. If they were wrong in the way they acted, they should have handled it differently. But in the end, none of it really matters. Golf is supposed to be about fun and so are these events, yet people get so worked up over it. None of this had to happen. If your partner had not said what he said to start thing and instead you just go back to the pro shop or starter and look it up, everybody ends up happy and you go from there. Instead people end up yelling, unhappy, and ruining a day of golf. It all seems to be because people take it way too far. You said you "almost came to blows" over a club tourny. TO me in the end, that is definitely NOT worth it.

 

[WWPSD]

So what really bothered me the most what this....after the rule was pointed out and that we were right, they still thought it was the right thing to do to continue with the match and adjust where needed.

To me that is garbage and they only thought that because they were winning. This is $hitty and almost dishonest in my opinion, especially for a game that is 99% mental, especially for a guy of my teammates level. Again, they were refusing to see our side of that situation and they requested that the pro make "the call".

DO you think he made the right call of a replay after 11 holes of wrong pretenses? Do you think we should have continued as is? Thoughts?

 

[JB]

I think they should have asked the pro to make the call. Just like you should have. They didnt want to hear it from you. Just like you didnt want to hear it from them.

 

[WWPSD]

Let me rephrase what I am trying to say in this whole thing. If you guys were right, my opinion is that your partner should have handled it differently. If they were wrong in the way they acted, they should have handled it differently. But in the end, none of it really matters. Golf is supposed to be about fun and so are these events, yet people get so worked up over it. None of this had to happen. If your partner had not said what he said to start thing and instead you just go back to the pro shop or starter and look it up, everybody ends up happy and you go from there. Instead people end up yelling, unhappy, and ruining a day of golf. It all seems to be because people take it way too far. You said you "almost came to blows" over a club tourny. TO me in the end, that is definitely NOT worth it.

I 100% agree...I am just the measly bogey golfer really just wanting fun competition. I think it is crap thought that my partner knew 100% the rule and NO ONE would even look it up. We tried to properly question it with level heads, and in his defense, we were told that we were dead wrong and our 3 rounds of wins were done improperly. They basically called us out and would not listen to the situation and the rule that we knew in writing.

To me...the problem is that the pro so easily gave into their thinking and did not consider our side before the match started. They got to make their case to the pro, but we were not given the same opportunity. But these guys were clearly "bully" types that like to get their way...why else would they have wanted to continue after 11 holes played with an incorrect scorecard. Do you see that side of it?

And in any case...to me, there is never cause to point a finger in a guys face like the other guy did unless you want it to get ugly.

Their showed their true skin to me by the way they acted on 11 after we were corrected....and no one ever said, sorry we did not listen to you guys...or at least give us a chance to make a case. All this make some sense here?