The future of Irons and their lofts

[golfinFF]

I'm not going to get into an argument over it you believe in the "science" of it and I'll believe in the easy out of strengthing the lofts and throwing a new color on it to sell more clubs.

Keep Calm and Golf On.

You believe what you will.

But the launch conditions- spin launch angle are/should be the same on properly fit(shaft) irons regardless of SGI/GI or players irons. There is zero differentiation when looking at monitor numbers on what head or loft the club is and what it should produce.

A six iron should have certain back spin numbers, a certain launch angle, certain decent angles and peak height to be called a 6i. If said iron doesn't fall within those parameters then its not a 6i.

What the club company does to get those numbers within the parameters is based purely on science(CG, loft, weight distribution)

 

[jspangs]

Dude, there is no argument, its back and forth conversation, I enjoy talking about "hot button" issues like this in golf equipment.

But, the fact of the matter is with the tech that has developed in irons in the past 20 years the launch of the irons has increased exponentially, if they didn't strengthen the lofts to properly hone that added launch then people would complain that every single iron set ballooned on them. The byproduct of launch has allowed a 44* PW to be hit at the same launch as that "traditional" 48* PW and the byproduct of having the stronger lofts is added distance. That's not a marketing ploy, its fact, and the numbers don't lie.

FWIW, I used to think the same way, then I saw the numbers and they don't lie.

It's not an argument as if yet, but it seems that this topic always leads to an argument. I will say I have spent lots of time with almost iron on the market on a launch monitor. I personally find it hard to believe these companies have so much "science" that they are able to add distance every year. I call BS and it's just a way for the companies to sell the greatest club since last year to the masses.

Keep Calm and Golf On.

 

[Jman]

It's not an argument as if yet, but it seems that this topic always leads to an argument. I will say I have spent lots of time with almost iron on the market on a launch monitor. I personally find it hard to believe these companies have so much "science" that they are able to add distance every year. I call BS and it's just a way for the companies to sell the greatest club since last year to the masses.

Keep Calm and Golf On.

Will everyone see the distance that is claimed by OEM's? No, but not every club fits every single golfer, some people will see that claim come to fruition and even more. Its not marketing BS to me even if I don't see the gains because I know someone will. Its like doing club reviews, just because a club is not a good fit for me doesn't mean it won't be for a large margin of golfers out there.

Do companies want to sell more clubs? I would hope so because if they don't they won't be in business long haha

I see what you're saying dude, but numbers and what these R&D departments do year after year of hunting for grams because they know the impact even that miniscule weight change can make for them in launch and spin characteristics that they can impart on that design don't lie IMO.

No arguments dude, just healthy conversation, gotta love seeing other peoples takes and why they think the way they do, thats how we learn and evolve our own thoughts and knowledge base.

 

[P.J.]

Honest question. What makes your 6 iron a 6 iron?

Very good question. Don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

Because it doesn't play at the same length or lie angle.

Plus, there is no such thing as strong lofted or traditional lofted to be honest, companies have ALWAYS used all sorts of different lofts and the numbers on the clubs have always varied based off of the launch the companies get during development. Its all about fine tuning that launch angle.

Goes to JB's question also. No real point of reference for any specification of a club. This is headed a little different direction than I intended, but good discussion was my goal. I guess my thought process for my previous post was this: Take OEM X. They have a 2011 line of clubs where the 6 iron is 31* and the 7 iron is 35* - arbitrary numbers here. Then in 2013 they make tech advancements but because of that the lofts have shifted to 28* and 32* - again arbitrary. Knowing the OEM will call these new clubs the new 6 and 7 iron, What keeps this OEM from taking the 32* club head and put it on the same 6 iron shaft from 2011 and moving the 28* club head to the 5 iron shaft from 2011. You have a new 6 iron that would supposedly launch and fly like a 7 iron but go at least as far as the old 6 iron. I think this is what jspangs was pointing out. Is it strictly to maintain an constant jump in distance gains? (I know thats one hell of a change from one line to the next, but I'm just trying to paint a picture)

You believe what you will.

But the launch conditions- spin launch angle are/should be the same on properly fit(shaft) irons regardless of SGI/GI or players irons. There is zero differentiation when looking at monitor numbers on what head or loft the club is and what it should produce.

A six iron should have certain back spin numbers, a certain launch angle, certain decent angles and peak height to be called a 6i. If said iron doesn't fall within those parameters then its not a 6i.

What the club company does to get those numbers within the parameters is based purely on science(CG, loft, weight distribution)

I've seen the pros numbers for particular clubs, but is there an actual defined set of launch specifications for each club?

 

[JB]

I've seen the pros numbers for particular clubs, but is there an actual defined set of launch specifications for each club?

Every manufacturer has a defined spec that they work with.
It goes back to exactly what Jman (and myself) said earlier.

 

[Jman]

Very good question. Don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.



Goes to JB's question also. No real point of reference for any specification of a club. This is headed a little different direction than I intended, but good discussion was my goal. I guess my thought process for my previous post was this: Take OEM X. They have a 2011 line of clubs where the 6 iron is 31* and the 7 iron is 35* - arbitrary numbers here. Then in 2013 they make tech advancements but because of that the lofts have shifted to 28* and 32* - again arbitrary. Knowing the OEM will call these new clubs the new 6 and 7 iron, What keeps this OEM from taking the 32* club head and put it on the same 6 iron shaft from 2011 and moving the 28* club head to the 5 iron shaft from 2011. You have a new 6 iron that would supposedly launch and fly like a 7 iron but go at least as far as the old 6 iron. I think this is what jspangs was pointing out. Is it strictly to maintain an constant jump in distance gains? (I know thats one hell of a change from one line to the next, but I'm just trying to paint a picture)



I've seen the pros numbers for particular clubs, but is there an actual defined set of launch specifications for each club?

You have to remember though, club length plays a role there, for most golfers the longer the clubs get the harder they are to hit both physically and mentally.

To me the bigger argument has always been the length of clubs getting longer compared to the loft getting stronger, but that's just me and why I have certain lengths I adjust my clubs to because I know that's what I've been fit for.

 

[tdiggitydawg]

I really enjoy reading about this topic..... I understand that loft is being strengthened due to higher launch but this is my dilemma: I now hit my PW 150 yards instead of 140 yards with a weaker lofted iron. Either I have to purchase a stronger lofted gap wedge or live with increasing yardage gaps between my scoring clubs. The majority of my approach shots are less than 150 yards. Now i only have 5 clubs to hit in that range instead of 6. I guess I just want a forgiving iron that still gives me nice gaps between clubs. Is this asking too much?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JB]

That is where fitting, options and finding the right bag make the most sense for everybody.

 

[golfinFF]

Very good question. Don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.



Goes to JB's question also. No real point of reference for any specification of a club. This is headed a little different direction than I intended, but good discussion was my goal. I guess my thought process for my previous post was this: Take OEM X. They have a 2011 line of clubs where the 6 iron is 31* and the 7 iron is 35* - arbitrary numbers here. Then in 2013 they make tech advancements but because of that the lofts have shifted to 28* and 32* - again arbitrary. Knowing the OEM will call these new clubs the new 6 and 7 iron, What keeps this OEM from taking the 32* club head and put it on the same 6 iron shaft from 2011 and moving the 28* club head to the 5 iron shaft from 2011. You have a new 6 iron that would supposedly launch and fly like a 7 iron but go at least as far as the old 6 iron. I think this is what jspangs was pointing out. Is it strictly to maintain an constant jump in distance gains? (I know thats one hell of a change from one line to the next, but I'm just trying to paint a picture)



I've seen the pros numbers for particular clubs, but is there an actual defined set of launch specifications for each club?

Yes a shaft a half inch longer than another shaft with the same lofted head will give you added distance(5-10yds my experience) but this can only be done for one cycle before the 6i becomes too long for most IMO as most players can not game a shaft that long and be consistently accurate.

Some of the distance gains are coming from new materials on the face or new ways of forging that metal to be hotter(springier) and take the repeated abuse of being smashed into the ball.

Every manufacturer has a defined spec that they work with.
It goes back to exactly what Jman (and myself) said earlier.

Agreed and every manufacturers is slightly different yet they almost all over lap some were.

I've seen the Ping and Titleist sheets and its cool to see those numbers and compare your numbers to their idea of perfect numbers and what your yardages are/should be based on those numbers.

 

[J33R]

I sense there is no right answer.:bulgy-eyes: If the trend of strengthening loft continues, OEM's will have to start offering custom sets more regularly, as I'm not about to purchase 7 to 8 clubs of which 4 or 5 will be used. My current set is close to standard (47* PW), leaving only my 3i out of the bag. All I know is that I can only hit my driver so far, so I need 12 other clubs to evenly space the distances & reach the green. Who cares about the designated iron number. Maybe we'll start seeing lofts on the bottom of all irons instead.
That would be nice - debate would be over. Well, ...maybe?

As a side note, and I'm not a physicist by any means, but I would think the length of a club is more critical for distance and accuracy (given equal lofts). (Insert new topic HERE) JK!

 

[golfinFF]

I really enjoy reading about this topic..... I understand that loft is being strengthened due to higher launch but this is my dilemma: I now hit my PW 150 yards instead of 140 yards with a weaker lofted iron. Either I have to purchase a stronger lofted gap wedge or live with increasing yardage gaps between my scoring clubs. The majority of my approach shots are less than 150 yards. Now i only have 5 clubs to hit in that range instead of 6. I guess I just want a forgiving iron that still gives me nice gaps between clubs. Is this asking too much?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I too enjoy this any many other topics similar that stir up great conversation and bring out the knowledge of the people we have here.

I get what your saying and yes it can be frustrating when you don't have the cash to build a new bottom end of the bag or your hybo is now the same distance as your 4i.

Unfortunately there is not much we can do but throw in another wedge, change our wedge setup, or learn to hit the shot for that gap or try and avoid hitting into that gap by using course management the best we can.

 

[Jman]

I guess I'm a freak in that having played extremely strong lofted irons or weak players irons my gaps are never an issue. But, I also hit my wedges full swing and I know many do not.

 

[golfinFF]

I sense there is no right answer.:bulgy-eyes: If the trend of strengthening loft continues, OEM's will have to start offering custom sets more regularly, as I'm not about to purchase 7 to 8 clubs of which 4 or 5 will be used. My current set is close to standard (47* PW), leaving only my 3i out of the bag. All I know is that I can only hit my driver so far, so I need 12 other clubs to evenly space the distances & reach the green. Who cares about the designated iron number. Maybe we'll start seeing lofts on the bottom of all irons instead.
That would be nice - debate would be over. Well, ...maybe?

Most manufacturers do sell "custom" sets of less than 8 clubs, although you can't generally by them off the rack or you can buy individual irons from a good fit shop.

The loft on the bottom would just be another conversation here and everywhere. Imagine being at a THP event and hitting your 32* iron and then asking your playing partner to hit his club. What do you hit his 30* or his 34* to get a feel for distance between the two sets? Which one has similar launch characteristics to your 32*

 

[golfinFF]

I guess I'm a freak in that having played extremely strong lofted irons or weak players irons my gaps are never an issue. But, I also hit my wedges full swing and I know many do not.

Not a freak, well maybe with the knowledge wrapped up in your noggin.

I haven't played enough sets to know if it is or will be an issue for me some where later on. I do however know how to take distance off a club when needed and can play my irons/wedges full swing or partial decently accurately.

 

[J33R]

Most manufacturers do sell "custom" sets of less than 8 clubs, although you can't generally by them off the rack or you can buy individual irons from a good fit shop.

The loft on the bottom would just be another conversation here and everywhere. Imagine being at a THP event and hitting your 32* iron and then asking your playing partner to hit his club. What do you hit his 30* or his 34* to get a feel for distance between the two sets? Which one has similar launch characteristics to your 32*

True. But at least I'd be at a THP event! Someday...

 

[Jman]

Not a freak, well maybe with the knowledge wrapped up in your noggin.

I haven't played enough sets to know if it is or will be an issue for me some where later on. I do however know how to take distance off a club when needed and can play my irons/wedges full swing or partial decently accurately.

It's why we are seeing more sets with gap wedges either included or regularly available. Give me a 50* set wedge or aftermarket one and I can make the gap work no matter if it's a 44 or 48 degree PW. It's all about how one looks at it.

 

[Tadashi70]

I guess I'm a freak in that having played extremely strong lofted irons or weak players irons my gaps are never an issue. But, I also hit my wedges full swing and I know many do not.

I have played my lofts 2* strong for many years and never had an issue.

And as for marketing ploys, I think not. I remember last demo day when Bob fit me for the Rocketbladez Tour with S400 pro and I hit it 180 with my normal action.

 

[JB]

True. But at least I'd be at a THP event! Someday...

We have one coming not too far away from you this year. Ocean City, MD. Awesome event.
http://www.thehackersparadise.com/forum/showthread.php?51841-The-2014-THP-Events-Calendar

 

[Jman]

I have played my lofts 2* strong for many years and never had an issue.

And as for marketing ploys, I think not. I remember last demo day when Bob fit me for the Rocketbladez Tour with S400 pro and I hit it 180 with my normal action.

Yes, and I remember Bob going "wow". Hahahaha

 

[golfinFF]

True. But at least I'd be at a THP event! Someday...

True got to make one of them they are a blast!

It's why we are seeing more sets with gap wedges either included or regularly available. Give me a 50* set wedge or aftermarket one and I can make the gap work no matter if it's a 44 or 48 degree PW. It's all about how one looks at it.

Agreed my first set had a 50* A and my current is a 48 G. All you have to do is fill in your full swing gaps then learn the part swing yardages

 

[chicogolf]

If you want the club to go 150 yards and it does, who cares what is stamped on the sole.

well said. It's like turning to your playing partner and saying, "what club should I hit?". Uh, the one you hit 150. I don't care if it's a 3-wood.

I appreciate the OP's inquisitiveness, however.

 

[chasd3]

Still waiting for someone to take the technology to make easier to hit irons by way of same length shaft like 1 iron. If distance is not the goal why not use the new tech to shorten shafts rather than make ball go far. Cleveland Altitudes are for higher handicappers (generally) but have pretty long shafts. Imagine a set of irons as easy to hit as altitudes all with 37 inch shafts with 12 yard gaps from 3 iron to gap wedge. THAT would lower scores for high handicappers but not be a sexy sell.

 

[golfinFF]

Still waiting for someone to take the technology to make easier to hit irons by way of same length shaft like 1 iron. If distance is not the goal why not use the new tech to shorten shafts rather than make ball go far. Cleveland Altitudes are for higher handicappers (generally) but have pretty long shafts. Imagine a set of irons as easy to hit as altitudes all with 37 inch shafts with 12 yard gaps from 3 iron to gap wedge. THAT would lower scores for high handicappers but not be a sexy sell.

This is where a proper fitting comes into play and importance is shown. Clubs that are properly fit for length and lie angle are much easier to hit and much easier to hit consistently and straighter.

The OEMs build irons to certain lengths as stock to get certain swing weight as well as flight and distance for the masses. These specs will not fit everyone and their swing perfectly just as not all stock shaft options are best for everyone.

To get a set of irons with the same length shaft throughout the set to have a consistent yardage gap due to loft only of 12 yards the long irons would have such low loft I am not sure one could launch them adequately. I think there was/is a small company that was/is trying this.