Wrapping my brain around slices and hooks

[robmypro]

I was reading up about my slice last night, and ran across some information that I wanted to check with the resident experts here. From what I understand, my heel hits are causing a slice because the ball hits the heel, then spins/rolls towards the center of the club face in a clockwise direction. And since the club face is curved, the ball starts left with a clockwise spin, leading to the slice. Exact opposite for the hook from the toe shot. The ball spins/rolls counter clockwise from the toe to the center of the club, leading to a hook/draw. So it's the spin caused from the ball moving across the face of the club towards the center that causes the spin, and thus the movement one way or the other.

Where I am going with this is trying to understand what is causing my slice. Once I confirm that I am hitting the sweet spot (I have impact tape for the next range session) - if I still have a slice after that, then I think I have a swing path issue (swiping at the ball, coming over the top, lousy swing, etc.?).

Do I have the right view of this slice thing?

 

[Canadan]

Heel side generating clockwise spin and toe side generating counter-clockwise spin gets that gear effect going..

That said, slices are often greater in error that just face contact. Coming inside with an open face is pretty predictable in ball flight, and distance reduction. Getting that rotation on the back leg and leaning back like you're hitting a baseball can banana that ball something fierce.

If I were struggling with fades or slices, I'd go right back to working on hitting to right field. Place a tee ahead of the ball and slightly away from the body to where you swing inside-to-out trying to make contact with it during your swing. That's a pretty sure fire way to limit your slicing, as even with an open face out there you can get decent baby draws.

 

[TheHeez]

Wrapping my brain around slices and hooks

I would say that there is a 90% chance that the slice/hook is caused by swing path issues. Missing the center can exacerbate a swing issue, but the direct cause will be the swing path.

Edit: what Canadan said. He's spot on.

 

[robmypro]

That was what I was trying to say Canadan! Thanks for the graphic. I also hear you guys about it possibly being a swing issue. When I go to the range next, I will first verify I am hitting it in the sweet spot. From my last session I know with absolute certainty this was not the case. But as you said, I might impact the sweet spot, but still have swing issues that cause the slice regardless. Either my swing is good and the heel hit alone is causing the slice, or a slice is going to happen even with sweet spot hits.

And I am going to be able to answer that question within a few days one way or the other. And the reason for the outside-in comments is that the club face is coming across (almost swiping the ball), which is causing this spin. I am just trying to visualize what is happening so I can try to make adjustments at the range. Baldguy mentioned that I might be teeing the ball too far forward, and now I see why he said that. That could also lead to the ball starting left and slicing right. As long as I can understand the why behind it, and the possible causes, I think I can have a more productive range session.

BTW, my Swingbyte is consistently telling me I have an inside-out swing path. If you combine that with the ball being a bit too far forward and a heel hit, that could explain it. In any case, I guess I am going to find out soon enough.

Let's say I get to the range, sort out the sweet spot hits, and still have a slice. Then I will try to move the ball back a little in my stance. Assuming neither of those changes eliminate the slice, what other changes can I make at the range? Any tests you guys would recommend to get more data, or is it just see an instructor sooner rather than later?

 

[JB]

Rob,
I will be the bad guy here and based on everything I have read in terms of where you are at on your journey, I would tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that it is being caused by the swing and not by the club face contact. I think it will come around with the work you are putting in, but I would hate to see you engrain the bad habits causing this and skip the help that will get you where you want to be much quicker (and less painful).

 

[Buckeyeduffer]

In my experience as a former slicer and now a sometimes hooker (um...that doesn't sound right :confused2 that these guys above are right. If you are slicing and hooking (more severe than a fade or draw) there is a swing/set-up issue. I have noticed more of a pull/push consequence to club face contact and a noticeable loss of distance. Club face contact issues for me are probably also swing related.

 

[Evok]

I know when I slice or hook (mostly hook now) it's because of my swing path. Getting that figured out has worked wonders for me

 

[stevie-a]

When in doubt, slow everything down and get back to the basics.... I used to hit a slice, that transitioned into a fade with lots of work, and is now a straight shot or slight draw. I can still hit a nice fade, but I have to really focus on setting up and executing the shot -- but speed is a swing killer when not done properly.

 

[Wakit300]

Check out this page and the videos to better understand swing path vs. face angle and how they affect ball flight.
[h=1]Understanding Shot Shape[/h]

 

[robmypro]

Rob,
I will be the bad guy here and based on everything I have read in terms of where you are at on your journey, I would tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that it is being caused by the swing and not by the club face contact. I think it will come around with the work you are putting in, but I would hate to see you engrain the bad habits causing this and skip the help that will get you where you want to be much quicker (and less painful).

Thanks JB! You aren't the bad guy at all. I know you are just trying to help me, and I really appreciate it. My gut tells me you are right, but I also know the brand new Bertha showed contact on the heel almost exclusively. So the plan is to go to the range with impact tape, make sure I am hitting her on the button, and let the ball flight tell me the truth. It either slices or it doesn't! It if still does, I will adjust the tee position back a little just to make sure it isn't that. If I still see a slice, that will be my focus with my group instructor Saturday, since we are going to work on the full swing. So I am with you. If I really do have swing issues, I might as well get the adjustments over with.

Thanks again for all your help, JB.

 

[robmypro]

In my experience as a former slicer and now a sometimes hooker (um...that doesn't sound right :confused2 that these guys above are right. If you are slicing and hooking (more severe than a fade or draw) there is a swing/set-up issue. I have noticed more of a pull/push consequence to club face contact and a noticeable loss of distance. Club face contact issues for me are probably also swing related.

I have a feeling you (and they) are right, but I am hoping they are not! I might be willing to lie to myself, but my next range session won't. lol

I know when I slice or hook (mostly hook now) it's because of my swing path. Getting that figured out has worked wonders for me

At least I know there's hope if that is the problem! Thanks.

When in doubt, slow everything down and get back to the basics.... I used to hit a slice, that transitioned into a fade with lots of work, and is now a straight shot or slight draw. I can still hit a nice fade, but I have to really focus on setting up and executing the shot -- but speed is a swing killer when not done properly.

Gotcha, and thanks! That is really what my next range session is all about. I am going to get back to basics, and make sure there isn't anything simple I am doing to cause my driver slice. I will also try to slow things down. I think I will know the verdict in 5 shots or less.

Check out this page and the videos to better understand swing path vs. face angle and how they affect ball flight.
Understanding Shot Shape

All over it. Thanks!

 

[tequila4kapp]

Virtually all of the initial ball flight is caused by face angle. Subsequent directional changes are due to swing path and/or gear effect.

If our ball starts straight then turns we can conclude the face angle is square but we've got a swing path issue.

If our ball starts off line then turns we can conclude the face angle and swing path need work.

 

[JB]

Thanks JB! You aren't the bad guy at all. I know you are just trying to help me, and I really appreciate it. My gut tells me you are right, but I also know the brand new Bertha showed contact on the heel almost exclusively. So the plan is to go to the range with impact tape, make sure I am hitting her on the button, and let the ball flight tell me the truth. It either slices or it doesn't! It if still does, I will adjust the tee position back a little just to make sure it isn't that. If I still see a slice, that will be my focus with my group instructor Saturday, since we are going to work on the full swing. So I am with you. If I really do have swing issues, I might as well get the adjustments over with.

Thanks again for all your help, JB.

Impact tape wont tell the whole story however. One can miss the center and still go fairly straight and one can hit the center and still slice and hook the ball. Its because the swing is causing the issue.

 

[robmypro]

Check out this page and the videos to better understand swing path vs. face angle and how they affect ball flight.
Understanding Shot Shape

That second video really helped me. Thank you! I think you guys are right. My path is is in-out-in, if that makes any sense. I am finishing up on the outside in, and that is causing the ball to be slapped across, leading to the spin. I like the shoulder adjustment the guy showed. I think I can get behind that!

This is harder than it looks.

 

[robmypro]

Impact tape wont tell the whole story however. One can miss the center and still go fairly straight and one can hit the center and still slice and hook the ball. Its because the swing is causing the issue.

Right, gotcha JB. Right now because I am hitting off the heel a part of my problem might be solved with center hits, but I fully expect to see a slice even with center hits. I think you are right about the swing. Everything seems to be going left. The SwingByte might say inside-out, but I think it is more like inside-out-inside. You guys have convinced me I have a swing path problem to go with my heel hits.

That video link Wakit300 posted made it crystal clear.

 

[tequila4kapp]

If you are hitting the ball on the heel (gear effect should promote a fade/slice) and are still hitting a hook, I might think you are coming from way inside.

 

[robmypro]

If you are hitting the ball on the heel (gear effect should promote a fade/slice) and are still hitting a hook, I might think you are coming from way inside.

Hi Tequila. I am definitely hitting on the heel, and definitely seeing a fade/slice with more emphasis on slice. Hitting center might tone things down a bit, but I think I need to alter my path to be more inside-out to correct it. Regardless what the SwingByte says, I think it is outside-in right now. At least when it matters.

 

[tahoebum]

Direction of your divots will tell the tale of swing path. Your divots should point at your target or hopefully within 10 degrees left or right of your target. Most golfers have slicing issues because of poor alignment and often a lack of shoulder turn. After a long layoff I will have divots that point a little left until I re-gain my flexibility allowing a fuller turn. When I see my divots pointing right at the target and rectangular I know I'm making a proper turn.

 

[robmypro]

Direction of your divots will tell the tale of swing path. Your divots should point at your target or hopefully within 10 degrees left or right of your target. Most golfers have slicing issues because of poor alignment and often a lack of shoulder turn. After a long layoff I will have divots that point a little left until I re-gain my flexibility allowing a fuller turn. When I see my divots pointing right at the target and rectangular I know I'm making a proper turn.

I will definitely keep an eye on that from now on, Tahoe. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[robmypro]

You guys have me pumped to get to the range and sort this out. Darn weather!

 

[Tadashi70]

Not for nothing, but this statement is not completely true. A lot of pros hit the ball right to left with divots headed left.

Direction of your divots will tell the tale of swing path. Your divots should point at your target or hopefully within 10 degrees left or right of your target. Most golfers have slicing issues because of poor alignment and often a lack of shoulder turn. After a long layoff I will have divots that point a little left until I re-gain my flexibility allowing a fuller turn. When I see my divots pointing right at the target and rectangular I know I'm making a proper turn.

 

[Ooo]

Not as good as a lot here but have always had problem with the slice. Would use a white tee and look at the tee marks on the bottom of the driver. Suspect you will find an open club face at impact.

 

[robmypro]

Not as good as a lot here but have always had problem with the slice. Would use a white tee and look at the tee marks on the bottom of the driver. Suspect you will find an open club face at impact.

Nice one! I was cleaning my driver the other day and noticed two lines on the bottom. Just checked and yep, the club face is open. Thanks!

 

[ButterFade23]

Every slice is guaranteed to have an open face in relation to the swing path at impact. Hitting the heel doesn't help but it is absolutely happening because the face is open.

 

[robmypro]

Every slice is guaranteed to have an open face in relation to the swing path at impact. Hitting the heel doesn't help but it is absolutely happening because the face is open.

Yep. I feel like I have finally (very reluctantly) accepted that I have a swing issue. It took 75 people to tell me that, but I can now start addressing the issue. Sometimes I need to be dragged kicking and screaming, and this was one of those times. Thanks for the help and patience, guys!