2.5 hour rounds, would it work for your course?

[Wake]

Sadly it still does not change the time spent on greens, which I believe (and has been shown on tour) is what slows everybody down. I just cannot believe people think a 4 hour round of golf is "rushing". Maybe its geography in which finally being outside makes you want to stay there, maybe its growing up playing in different areas, or maybe its people move slower in life, but 4 hours considered rushing is something I have a hard time understanding.

I'm in the same boat, 3 hours for a foursome is rushing, but doable. A four hour round is far from rushing.

 

[Trout Bum]

I've played with you Trout, I don't think you and I would have any trouble playing 18 in 2.5 hours

I definitely think we could do it bubba, but I think 3 hours would be perfect lol. Like JB and many others we get to the ball pretty much know our yardages, pull a club, and swing, we then do it again. So many people don't do it that way and I'm not sure they can as beginners, they don't know other than what they see on tv.

 

[rbarthle17]

People that believe 4.5 hours is "rushing around the course" make me wonder their concept of time on the golf course. It should not take longer than 15 minutes to play your average golf hole. Especially with 4 par 3s involved at most courses and par 5s that are merely 125 yards longer than the par 4s.

If the standard is 4:30 I would agree with you. But this conversation started with times way under that. And I think people wanting to finish a round in 2:30 or 3:00 could be considered as much of a problem to pace of play as those causing the 5+ hour rounds. If you are playing speed golf, and are constantly up on top of the group in front of you you are going to cause issues with them likely. Playing through is a courtesy, it is not a requirement. Fast golfers tend to forget that part, feeling it is their right to blow past people - people who are in fact playing at the expected pace.

I agree with you on the Tee It Forward initiative. I typically prefer to pay from 6100-6300 because my driver distance is more than adequate for that (assuming a normal driving day for me). That puts me at the back tees on my home course, but most places I play it would be the second from the back. Since I almost always am a single, what I will do is play from the same tees that the group I am put with plays, even if that's shorter than I prefer.

Now when we play Purgatory #13 in May, I am going to see how I stack up to that 748 yard hole from the tips - just to say I did it.

 

[Trout Bum]

Sadly it still does not change the time spent on greens, which I believe (and has been shown on tour) is what slows everybody down. I just cannot believe people think a 4 hour round of golf is "rushing". Maybe its geography in which finally being outside makes you want to stay there, maybe its growing up playing in different areas, or maybe its people move slower in life, but 4 hours considered rushing is something I have a hard time understanding.

4 hours is plenty of time to play well and enjoy the course, you can still relax in the amount of time while still providing an exceptional experience for the guys behind you. If you can do 4 while it's busy 3.5 should be no problem when it's slow. I'm beginning to think every golfer should pass an etiquette test to get on a course which should include assigned tees for skill level as well.

 

[rollin]

Does that 4 hour time limit include stoping for a dog and beer at the turn? Also, I have diabetes and golf really drains my blood sugar. I always try to snack throughout so I don't have an issue, but sometimes I do have to stop and check my blood sugar. I do agree that slow play sucks, but there is a difference between blatant slow play, etiquette, and actual issues.

Good point and good observation between slower and blantent slow and whats acceptable or respectable. Firsty there is always a debate as to just what slow is. Some will say up to 4n1/2 is an acceptable max, some 4:15, Some will say 3:45 and then want to actually stab people to death if it goes past 3:55. Its all very relative and also some does depend on the golf course too. For some courses its just not practical to play in 4 hrs and other courses can be played in under 4 regularly. So a lot is relative to the place and also to the individual. Problem is that some feel extremely righteous about dictating whatever they think is fair. Who is actually right or wrong exactly I dont think we will ever know.

But for your health topic. Not to jack this thread i had braught up another thread not too long ago about old age meant to include over all physical, medical ability or ailments to play at a respectable pace and what to do about it and whether or not we should make exceptions because it concerned one near to me. Here is the thread but i will say some of it can seem a bit harsh but it cant be taken personally. Life is just not fair sometimes and it was implied to me while no one twas trying to be or sound mean that basically it is what it is. So here is the thread and take from it what you will and perhaps comment further on it if you wish.
http://www.thehackersparadise.com/f...do-we-do-when-quot-age-and-ability-quot/page3

 

[TheShow]

I'm a beginner so as I said earlier if there is a course that wants to enforce a time limit, that's perfectly fine. Their course, their rules. I will stay away until I'm confident that I can finish in their required time limit.

I'm sure this is just my own selfishness but I didn't pay for 4 hours, I paid for 18 holes which is exactly what the board says when I paid my green fee. If I follow etiquette, and let faster players through, what does it hurt?

Not trying to sound like a selfish jerk. Please don't hate me.

Like it or not, a golf course is a service industry, no customers, no golf course. It would be like if restaurants started putting time limits and kicking people out just to get more people through. You'd probably never give them another dime of your money if you got the boot.

Slow can also be subjective. I'll never be able to run a sub 4 hour marathon. But to others, that might be slow for them. I'd be happy to get out off a marathon alive!

 

[Fourputt]

A local website sponsored yet another take on pace of plays issues this past weekend, it was featured on Golf.com here is the story:

Is speeding up the pace of play the fastest way to grow the game?


A quick test of the concept showed promising results.


The experiment took place Saturday at Deer Run Golf Club in Victoria, Minnesota, where twosomes were dispatched with a simple mandate: play 18 holes in two-and-a-half hours or less.


“A common complaint about golf is that it takes too long,” said event organizer Kevin Unterreiner, owner of TwinCitiesGolf.com, a local golf website. “It’s not when you play in less than two-and-a-half hours.”
Unterreiner first proposed his plan for an uptempo outing on Hackgolf.org, a TaylorMade-backed open source initiative aimed at generating ideas for making the game more affordable and fun. He found a ready partner in Deer Run head pro Tom Abts, a longtime advocate of fast play.


The event featured 12 golfers of varying skill levels. Riding in shared carts, they went out in twosomes as the first groups of the day, spaced at four-minute intervals. Triple-bogey was the maximum score allowed per hole.


By morning’s end, golfers who normally shoot in the 70s completed their rounds in 2:04; 80s golfers wrapped up play in 2:15-2:20; and 90s golfers finished in 2:20-2:27. According to Unterreiner, none of the golfers reported feeling rushed.


“Something else we learned is that a course can send players out as twosomes and not lose any revenue because you can still get the same amount of golfers out in an hour,” Unterreiner said. “Instead of foursomes playing at eight-minute intervals, you have twosomes at four minute intervals.”
The only difference, he added, is that the groups get around nearly twice as fast.


With this first trial-run behind him, Unterreiner said he hopes to build on the idea by staging similar events throughout the summer at 10 to 15 other courses around Minnesota. To find out more about the outings, visit http://www.2hourgolf.com

I like the idea of being able to get out and get around the course in a timely fashion on the weekend, but I have a few questions for you;
How do you feel about twosomes only? Does it hurt you normal group or do you struggle to fill out your foursome?

Deer Run being on board doesn't surprise me they have Fast Play Fridays where if you play before noon on Fridays if you don't make the turn in under 2 hours you are given a Raincheck and asked to leave, would you agree to that?

You may have noticed that they conveniently left out the 100 plus shooters, is pace of play a big enough issue for you to stop golfing with someone that shoots in the 100's? I know many high handicappers that can play ready golf and I would have liked to see them added to the test run.

Do you think your local course would allow the first hour of tee times to be utilized this way if they still had the same number of golfers?

This of course, is an issue we talk about constantly but I thought this was worth mentioning and look forward to seeing what my fellow THPer's think.

Two players riding should be able to beat 2.5 hours without even sweating. A friend and I in a shared cart did 18 holes in under 2 hours on a rare day when we had the course mostly to ourselves. We played through one fourball, but otherwise never saw another player that day. We never rushed, just played our usual 12-13 handicap game (and played by the rules of golf), but we never had any reason to dawdle or anyone to wait on. Drive to the ball, hit the ball, drive to the ball, hit the ball - lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[JB]

I'm a beginner so as I said earlier if there is a course that wants to enforce a time limit, that's perfectly fine. Their course, their rules. I will stay away until I'm confident that I can finish in their required time limit.

I'm sure this is just my own selfishness but I didn't pay for 4 hours, I paid for 18 holes which is exactly what the board says when I paid my green fee. If I follow etiquette, and let faster players through, what does it hurt?

Not trying to sound like a selfish jerk. Please don't hate me.

Like it or not, a golf course is a service industry, no customers, no golf course. It would be like if restaurants started putting time limits and kicking people out just to get more people through. You'd probably never give them another dime of your money if you got the boot.

I think that is a great analogy actually. Lets say you have a dinner reservation at 7pm. And you show up on time and are told that the group in front of you has not finished yet. 45 minutes go by and they still are sitting. Who is at fault? The person wanting to eat at the time designated or the slower group in front? Assuming there is no rule that says they must finish eating at a certain time?

Or to make the direct comparison, lets say like in golf, the restaurant brings you to a table at the time of reservation (tee time). You order your drinks (start playing). But then are told its going to be an extra 45 minutes to eat. Why? Because those in front of you ordering are slower and causing the kitchen to back up. Who is at fault? You, the one wanting to eat at the "normal time" (4 hours), or the ones that are moving slow in front and the restaurant not being able to speed them up?

 

[Trevino81]

I'm sure this is just my own selfishness but I didn't pay for 4 hours, I paid for 18 holes which is exactly what the board says when I paid my green fee. If I follow etiquette, and let faster players through, what does it hurt?

I agree with this 100% The green fee is for 18 holes not set number of hours. If you can finish before that course's round time great if not you should probably look into moving up a tee box. I'm a high capper and I can walk 18 holes in 3hours.

 

[Fourputt]

I'm a beginner so as I said earlier if there is a course that wants to enforce a time limit, that's perfectly fine. Their course, their rules. I will stay away until I'm confident that I can finish in their required time limit.

I'm sure this is just my own selfishness but I didn't pay for 4 hours, I paid for 18 holes which is exactly what the board says when I paid my green fee. If I follow etiquette, and let faster players through, what does it hurt?

Not trying to sound like a selfish jerk. Please don't hate me.

Like it or not, a golf course is a service industry, no customers, no golf course. It would be like if restaurants started putting time limits and kicking people out just to get more people through. You'd probably never give them another dime of your money if you got the boot.

Slow can also be subjective. I'll never be able to run a sub 4 hour marathon. But to others, that might be slow for them. I'd be happy to get out off a marathon alive!

Whether it's published or not, every course has a pace of play expectation. For most courses that is going to be somewhere from 4 hours to 4:30. Paying your fees with the attitude that you have paid for 18 holes no matter how long it takes is selfish. One of the prime movers of golf is etiquette, and that involves showing respect for the course and for the other players.

Just because you are willing to let others play through doesn't mean that you are in the right. I've seen major road blocks develop from that policy when a course is busy and there is always another group right on the heels of the one you just let through. If you are really that much of a beginner, then you should be considering other options, such as picking up when you reach a certain score on a hole (double par is usually an accepted limit), or picking up and moving up to the green when your stroke count reaches 6 and you are still 100 yards out.

On a busy day it may be necessary to modify your play to accommodate the course. Paying your fees doesn't give you unlimited rights.

 

[captaincaution]

I agree with this 100% The green fee is for 18 holes not set number of hours. If you can finish before that course's round time great if not you should probably look into moving up a tee box. I'm a high capper and I can walk 18 holes in 3hours.

Not always the case. Cog Hill in the Chicago area puts right on their scorecard that they sell you a tee time under the condition that you maintain the 9 minute interval with the group ahead or play each 9 in 2 hours or less. They also have good rangers that keep on you if you are too slow. This even applies to the Dubsdread course there.

If you have a permanent tee time and play before 6am, you're expected to play in 3:50.

Setting the expectation ahead of time, and actually enforcing it are key.

 

[tgtt]

I agree with this 100% The green fee is for 18 holes not set number of hours. If you can finish before that course's round time great if not you should probably look into moving up a tee box. I'm a high capper and I can walk 18 holes in 3hours.

I love this argument and makes my pay per hour suggestion more sensible.

 

[TheShow]

I think that is a great analogy actually. Lets say you have a dinner reservation at 7pm. And you show up on time and are told that the group in front of you has not finished yet. 45 minutes go by and they still are sitting. Who is at fault? The person wanting to eat at the time designated or the slower group in front? Assuming there is no rule that says they must finish eating at a certain time?

Or to make the direct comparison, lets say like in golf, the restaurant brings you to a table at the time of reservation (tee time). You order your drinks (start playing). But then are told its going to be an extra 45 minutes to eat. Why? Because those in front of you ordering are slower and causing the kitchen to back up. Who is at fault? You, the one wanting to eat at the "normal time" (4 hours), or the ones that are moving slow in front and the restaurant not being able to speed them up?

I don't think it's anyone's fault. If there's no time limit, they can sit there as long as they want, just like I can sit there and make someone else's reservation late. Would I be upset? Sure, we all would. Am I forced to wait? No! Have we all had to wait to be seated, most likely but that's just the way it is at times. I can choose to go somewhere else. There's no gun to my head.

I'm not a fan of being blatantly slow, I try my best to finish holes in a timely manner. I take multiple clubs to my ball, I wait to put my putter in the bag until we are at the next tee. I pick up at double par. I honestly try to keep away from the course on busy days because I know I'm so bad. I do my part to speed up play. Sometimes you just have to wait it out. It may not be fair, but that's life.

 

[Trevino81]

Not always the case. Cog Hill in the Chicago area puts right on their scorecard that they sell you a tee time under the condition that you maintain the 9 minute interval with the group ahead or play each 9 in 2 hours or less. They also have good rangers that keep on you if you are too slow. This even applies to the Dubsdread course there.

If you have a permanent tee time and play before 6am, you're expected to play in 3:50.

Setting the expectation ahead of time, and actually enforcing it are key.

Understood that's why I added: If you can finish before that course's round time great if not you should probably look into moving up a tee box. that still fits the finishing each 9 with in the two hours allotted by Cog Hill.
IMO-There is no reason a beginner or veteran to play 18holes in more then 4hrs.

 

[JB]

I don't think it's anyone's fault. If there's no time limit, they can sit there as long as they want, just like I can sit there and make someone else's reservation late. Would I be upset? Sure, we all would. Am I forced to wait? No! Have we all had to wait to be seated, most likely but that's just the way it is at times. I can choose to go somewhere else. There's no gun to my head.

I'm not a fan of being blatantly slow, I try my best to finish holes in a timely manner. I take multiple clubs to my ball, I wait to put my putter in the bag until we are at the next tee. I do my part to speed up play. Sometimes you just have to wait it out. It may not be fair, but that's life.

But on the golf course you are forced to wait. You already paid and despite there being a "standard and rule" of slow play, if the course chooses not to enforce it, and the players ignore it, you are out the money and the round. As you said, you would be upset. Hence the reason that so many get "upset" about pace of play. Because it is not their fault, but without just leaving and not getting money back, there is nothing they can do.

If rules in golf are going to be completely ignored, meaning the ones that have an impact on others, why have them? It is like filling and replacing divots, fixing pitch marks, etc. These are ettiquete/rules to make the round enjoyable for everybody...Just as pace of play.

In my opinion it is quite selfish to say "screw the pace suggestion, I am playing my own pace and if anybody doesn't like it, I paid my fees like they did".

Now I am not saying you are, you have said repeatedly that you try and keep up and let faster players play through. That is perfect ettiquete for this situation. However too many do not and do not have a care in the world that the course has a pace of play in place.

 

[Trevino81]

Not always the case. Cog Hill in the Chicago area puts right on their scorecard that they sell you a tee time under the condition that you maintain the 9 minute interval with the group ahead or play each 9 in 2 hours or less. They also have good rangers that keep on you if you are too slow. This even applies to the Dubsdread course there.

If you have a permanent tee time and play before 6am, you're expected to play in 3:50.

Setting the expectation ahead of time, and actually enforcing it are key.

I would still argue that you're paying for 18 holes not a number of hours. The course is making the customer aware of the expectation to finish each 9 in 2hours or less and will be enforcing it.

 

[TheShow]

Whether it's published or not, every course has a pace of play expectation. For most courses that is going to be somewhere from 4 hours to 4:30. Paying your fees with the attitude that you have paid for 18 holes no matter how long it takes is selfish. One of the prime movers of golf is etiquette, and that involves showing respect for the course and for the other players.

Just because you are willing to let others play through doesn't mean that you are in the right. I've seen major road blocks develop from that policy when a course is busy and there is always another group right on the heels of the one you just let through. If you are really that much of a beginner, then you should be considering other options, such as picking up when you reach a certain score on a hole (double par is usually an accepted limit), or picking up and moving up to the green when your stroke count reaches 6 and you are still 100 yards out.

On a busy day it may be necessary to modify your play to accommodate the course. Paying your fees doesn't give you unlimited rights.

I agree that is a selfish way of thinking. This is a selfish world that we live in. If anyone pays for something, that is what they expect to get. Period. If you pay for a dozen roses, you expect a dozen roses.

I'm 100% on board with showing respect for the course and others. I try to in every way that I can. I do pick up at double par. I take multiple clubs to my ball. Etc.

I'm not asking for unlimited rights, I just want what I paid for. If I pay to see a movie, I want to see the whole movie.

I honestly don't have a pace of play issue. I'm within the time expectations, but there are times for exceptions to your expectations.

 

[JB]

I agree that is a selfish way of thinking. This is a selfish world that we live in. If anyone pays for something, that is what they expect to get. Period. If you pay for a dozen roses, you expect a dozen roses.

I'm 100% on board with showing respect for the course and others. I try to in every way that I can. I do pick up at double par. I take multiple clubs to my ball. Etc.

I'm not asking for unlimited rights, I just want what I paid for. If I pay to see a movie, I want to see the whole movie.

I honestly don't have a pace of play issue. I'm within the time expectations, but there times for exceptions to your expectations.

But thats just it. You pay for a round of golf under the rules of the course.
Not obeying the pace of play is no different really than wearing apparel that does not match the courses rules, driving on the greens, not raking bunkers or anything else. Courses set the pace of play and if people choose to ignore that, then they are not asking for what they paid for. They are asking for what they paid for without following the rules.

 

[TheShow]

But on the golf course you are forced to wait. You already paid and despite there being a "standard and rule" of slow play, if the course chooses not to enforce it, and the players ignore it, you are out the money and the round. As you said, you would be upset. Hence the reason that so many get "upset" about pace of play. Because it is not their fault, but without just leaving and not getting money back, there is nothing they can do.

If rules in golf are going to be completely ignored, meaning the ones that have an impact on others, why have them? It is like filling and replacing divots, fixing pitch marks, etc. These are ettiquete/rules to make the round enjoyable for everybody...Just as pace of play.

In my opinion it is quite selfish to say "screw the pace suggestion, I am playing my own pace and if anybody doesn't like it, I paid my fees like they did".

Now I am not saying you are, you have said repeatedly that you try and keep up and let faster players play through. That is perfect ettiquete for this situation. However too many do not and do not have a care in the world that the course has a pace of play in place.

I agree! Good conversation! Thanks for letting me be apart of it!

 

[JB]

I agree! Good conversation! Thanks for letting me be apart of it!

Absolutely. Glad to have you. Healthy, fun debate about golf is a great way to pass the time when we are not playing.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I think me and MikeDean played at one of the popular local courses a couple years ago, teeing off around 11am, and it took nearly 6 hours. Maybe it wasn't him, but yeah, never again.

100% no issues with enforcing 4-4:15 on course.

And remember, it isn't just the time on the course. You have to factor in the drive moth ways, time warming up on the range and putting green. That 4.5 hour round can easily become a 6 hour commitment. That's easy and great when you are single with no kids. It's a deal breaker when you add them to the mix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rollin]

I'm a beginner so as I said earlier if there is a course that wants to enforce a time limit, that's perfectly fine. Their course, their rules. I will stay away until I'm confident that I can finish in their required time limit.

I'm sure this is just my own selfishness but I didn't pay for 4 hours, I paid for 18 holes which is exactly what the board says when I paid my green fee. If I follow etiquette, and let faster players through, what does it hurt?

Not trying to sound like a selfish jerk. Please don't hate me.

Like it or not, a golf course is a service industry, no customers, no golf course. It would be like if restaurants started putting time limits and kicking people out just to get more people through. You'd probably never give them another dime of your money if you got the boot.
!

I think that is a great analogy actually. Lets say you have a dinner reservation at 7pm. And you show up on time and are told that the group in front of you has not finished yet. 45 minutes go by and they still are sitting. Who is at fault? The person wanting to eat at the time designated or the slower group in front? Assuming there is no rule that says they must finish eating at a certain time?

Or to make the direct comparison, lets say like in golf, the restaurant brings you to a table at the time of reservation (tee time). You order your drinks (start playing). But then are told its going to be an extra 45 minutes to eat. Why? Because those in front of you ordering are slower and causing the kitchen to back up. Who is at fault? You, the one wanting to eat at the "normal time" (4 hours), or the ones that are moving slow in front and the restaurant not being able to speed them up?

And "sometimes" (just like in golf) it is the fault of the restaraunt or the course. Booking reservations too close together would have the same affect as tee times too close together. Wanting to secure more patrons for more business and money is the motivation for doing so. They are overlooking better responsible etiquette in the first place. . But people do feel rightgeous Just the same as they have paid good money to dine and with complete disregard or common courtesy or etiquette towards fellow patrons they too just dont care. Much like showing up for the reservation 20 minutes late to begin with but would be extremely angry if they were told "sorry, but its too late". It all has to work from both ends though usually in the end its the patron or "player" that needs to take on responsibility towards everyone else.

I use to manage a restaraunt on weekends and let me tell you how many would be finished and just sit there for literally an hour and a half just talking while they see families waiting at the front to be seated. You would think common sense, common courtesy, and good etiquette towards others would somehow get in thier heads to leave so others could dine but it just doesnt get in hier heads and they dont give a rats ass. Its the same logic that applies to golf. they just dont care and dont want to care.

I've said it before, that while we all wish for golf to grow we should be careful what we wish for. The postives gained from more people playing also means more of the same problems and some new ones added in.

 

[TheShow]

But thats just it. You pay for a round of golf under the rules of the course.
Not obeying the pace of play is no different really than wearing apparel that does not match the courses rules, driving on the greens, not raking bunkers or anything else. Courses set the pace of play and if people choose to ignore that, then they are not asking for what they paid for. They are asking for what they paid for without following the rules.

I agree but that is on the course to enforce the rules if someone refuses to follow. I work as a corrections officer. I get paid to enforce the rules made by the jail. So I know all about enforcing rules. It is on me to enforce when inmates refuse to follow.

If I blatantly fail to do my job, and the jail keeps me as an employee without discipline, does the county share the blame after knowing about my blatant insubordination? (This happens all the time by the way...not to me though lol.)

The courses that want to enforce pace of play, they need to do so or find people who will. I'm sure there's a retired drill sergeant that's more than ready to rip a few holes in a few behinds somewhere!

 

[tequila4kapp]

People that believe 4.5 hours is "rushing around the course" make me wonder their concept of time on the golf course.

QFT. I don't think people mean to be off base, they just don't know any better. I correlate it to coaching kids. Some kids you tell them once and they get it. Some need to be told multiple times. Other kids you have to physically guide them to literally show them how to do something. The 4.5 hour is too rushed crowd is the last group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JB]

I agree but that is on the course to enforce the rules if someone refuses to follow. I work as a corrections officer. I get paid to enforce the rules made by the jail. So I know all about enforcing rules. It is on me to enforce when inmates refuse to follow.

If I blatantly fail to do my job, and the jail keeps me as an employee without discipline, does the county share the blame after knowing about my blatant insubordination? (This happens all the time by the way...not to me though lol.)

The courses that want to enforce pace of play, they need to do so or find people who will. I'm sure there's a retired drill sergeant that's more than ready to rip a few holes in a few behinds somewhere!

First off, I commend you on your job. That is not easy and it takes a stronger person than me.
But it does bring up an interesting thought to my weird head. Those people are in there for not following "the rules".
The golf course has rules. Golf is supposed to be a sport of self policing. If someone breaks the rules, there should be consequences, but in golf, its supposed to be done by the individual. So at the end of the day, it still falls on the individual for not following the rules.

These same people would never drive right across the green...Similar rule actually.