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How big a difference is 2° really?

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rbarthle17

rbarthle17

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Working on my short game, and one difficult area is the short shots (less than 15y) that have to have most or all of it be carry. Right now it seems that the shortest I can consistently get it to land and stop is about 20y. My highest loft club is a 58° Smart Sole S. The bulk on the bottom of the club is great for me, except that it makes it near impossible to open up for a flop of any kind. So I was thinking of adding a LW to my bag. I read that 60° is as high as an amateur should go. So what I wonder is how much help will 2° really give me in practical terms?
 
Not much, especially if you're already comfortable with the 58.

However I see you're using the smart sole. Does that prevent you from opening the face and increasing the dynamic loft?
 
The flop shot is/should be a last resort shot for many in the higher handicapped area. Its low percentage and hard to control for many. FWIW, so are 60* wedges when full or close to full swings are in order. Unless there is an obstacle in the way, IE a bunker, etc, is there a reason for the need of a flop shot?
 
jlukes said:
Not much, especially if you're already comfortable with the 58.

However I see you're using the smart sole. Does that prevent you from opening the face and increasing the dynamic loft?
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The sole makes it harder to open up, however with where the weight is placed, most with practice should be able to get a nice high and soft landing short shot. We did this with a number of THPers at Riverstrand recently and worked on shots out of all types of grass including to short sided hopping over a bunker.
 
At that distance, if I can bump and run it that is my preferred shot. What I am talking about is a shot I was faced with twice last night and failed miserably. In the green side rough about 10 yards from the pin, but the pin was located literally 10' from the fringe. So I had no area to land a low trajectory shot without it rolling way past the hole. The rough I was in was not overly thick, so I did not think I could flop it. In think rough, I have successfully opened the club up and executed a flop-ish kind of shot, but I really felt I needed the wiggle room underneath the ball. Almost like a bunker shot.

I spent about 30 minutes today working on quarter-shots with my S today both from a mat and from my grass (which is basically thick rough on a golf course, maybe worse). I could consistently get the ball to land around 20y (I layered a target to go after) but nothing closer.

I would love to get some tips on how to execute this with the S from shorter grass, if someone at Riverstrand would chime in on it!
 
I went from a 58* to a 60* the diffrence for me was about 5 yards but every one is a little diffrent
 
There was a noticeable yardage jump for me going 60 to 58. On pitch shots, the 58 gets a little more release but I'm more consistent. I don't get the random ball that comes off the club face like a marshmallow and goes nowhere like I would sometimes with the 60, and it's just more reliable from various lies.

60 is fun, but 58 is just a little easier.
 
JB is spot on. NO flop shots unless your name is Tiger or Phil!!!
 
I think the difference between 58* and *60 is like the difference between 47* and 52* if swung right and the grooves are set up the same. The difference between 60* and 62* even greater. The ball goes higher the harder you swing.

I am a 30 handicap and have carried a 60 and 62 for at least 6 years now. It's better to know than not knowing if that makes sense, when it comes to equipment. I've gone 15 yards over a 30 yard high tree branch with 0 roll out with massive confidence just based on lie.
 
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JB said:
The flop shot is/should be a last resort shot for many in the higher handicapped area. Its low percentage and hard to control for many. FWIW, so are 60* wedges when full or close to full swings are in order. Unless there is an obstacle in the way, IE a bunker, etc, is there a reason for the need of a flop shot?
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I agree. I've played a long time and rarely use my SW let alone anything with any more loft. 90% of my approach shots are done with 8 or 9 iron, PW or maybe AW.
 
HoosierGolfer said:
I agree. I've played a long time and rarely use my SW let alone anything with any more loft. 90% of my approach shots are done with 8 or 9 iron, PW or maybe AW.
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So what do you do in this short-sided situation? Anything less than a quarter shot and I just don't have the oomph on the club to get the ball out anywhere. And if I chip it with my C it would blow way past it with the distance it has to carry to get to shorter grass where it could roll. JB in another thread suggested a change in stance (ball in middle) that I am going to try. Is 58° too lofted for a chip shot?
 
I have found the the reason most amateurs have trouble hitting the flop shot is because they either sway or don't maintain their spine angle. Both errors move the bottom of the swing arc and lead to bladed shots or the club sliding straight under the ball.
 
The smart sole is hard to open the face and hit shots. I agree with ag47 that swaying and also,tempo prevent most amateurs from hitting flop shots. I suggest working on hitting different clubs with shorter swings and having your weight more on the front foot than the back foot. Tom Watson did some work on Golf Channel recently that show some of these shots...very good watch
 
Sounds like it is more of a club issue than anything. Maybe get a different wedge and try it, I imagine from the name "smart sole" it has a very thick sole and doesn't let you open it up at all.
 
Pretty much. When you open it up the leading edge us off the ground. The nice things about these clubs both the chipper and the sand is that you don't have to manipulate the face to hit a shot. The S just walk in a bunker leave the face as is and hit your bunker shot and the ball comes out with ease. The Cleveland rep for my area has sold a bunch to guys looking to get out of bunkers easier and chip around the green with out figuring out what loft, where to put the ball how much open or closed the face should be.
 
The difference in 2* is minimal the grind/sole makes a bigger difference on the ability to use the club differently.

If the rough isn't thick why not land the ball into it and let it release to the hole? Or drop the ball on the fringe and let it roll out?

Both above options give you a chance to make the chip for birdie/par and save you one, two strokes or even more if you fail on the flop!

Greenside I rarely play the ball to stop dead in its tracks as I like to use the contour of the green to work the ball to the hole hopefully leaving myself an easy putt.
 
golfinFF said:
The difference in 2* is minimal the grind/sole makes a bigger difference on the ability to use the club differently.

If the rough isn't thick why not land the ball into it and let it release to the hole? Or drop the ball on the fringe and let it roll out?

Both above options give you a chance to make the chip for birdie/par and save you one, two strokes or even more if you fail on the flop!

Greenside I rarely play the ball to stop dead in its tracks as I like to use the contour of the green to work the ball to the hole hopefully leaving myself an easy putt.
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It's thick just not long enough that I'd feel comfortable trying a flop of any kind. The fringe is the first place I felt could land and not grab the ball and that was 10' from the hole. Didn't have the touch to land it there I ended up landing it near the hole but it rolled way past it. I'm all about learning to use my clubs better was just curious what the difference really was.
 
That 58 degree Cleveland Smart Sole "Sand Wedge" even though I consider it a lob wedge, is my favorite club. It has helped me tremendously with my short game. I had similar issues that you are in that for a while I was not able to get the ball to stop quickly enough with this club. I would say 15 or 20 yards was about right. I got this club early in 2014 and have been working on my short game as much as possible this year (I've been playing golf for 2 years, 1 month). It took a while but now that shot is no problem at all and I find myself using that club all the time. An area that I still struggle with that club is when I have to hit it more than 60 yards because the harder I swing the higher the ball goes, not necessarily the further and I've had issues with that.

The wide sole of the club is great in that it makes it almost foolproof from chunking shots. The downside though is that you cannot be as creative or as precise with the club. The price for forgiveness is paid with precision. Again it took me a while to figure out how to hit the ball and get it to stop when I short side myself and am 10 yards an closer from the hole. The best advice that I can give you is to not use the wide sole on those shots. On those short shots I have no follow through and stop almost immediately after I hit the ball. I use quite a bit of wrists and make sure that all my weight is on my left foot (I'm a righty) and that the ball is played further back. Something that I do because I am new to the game is I will stand only on my left leg and my right leg will be on it's toes. This is something that I do so I don't forget to keep all my weight on my front leg. Yes I look stupid doing this probably but it pays off when I execute that shot you are talking about. If I need to fly the ball just a bit further then I'll move the ball to almost even with my left foot. The key is not to dig the sole into the ground at all (assuming you are hitting from the rough). I almost always choke down to the bottom of the grip almost to the metal as well.

FWIW, I carry 3 of the "smart sole" wedges in my bag: 42 degree chipper, 49 degree "Niblick", and the 58 degree. I never use the 42 degree for chipping because it's so hard to get it to stop quick enough without running out too much. I keep it in my bag for shots when I have to hit it under or keep it low and end up using it once a round or so. I use the 49 degree as a gap wedge in my bag. Now, for those bump and run shots that you also mentioned.....I am getting better at using the 49 degree for those but have gotten to a point where I can use the 58 degree to hit that shot as well. I prefer to carry the ball usually but if I have to bump and run it the 58 works as well. I've found the key to doing that with the 58 is to stand very close to the ball and have the face closed, make sure that you are aligned right though because it's easy to do this and not aim correctly because of how close you are to the ball and with the closed face. It's then a matter of not using that sole at all and flattening out the back swing because if you are too steep then you will chunk it every time by doing it this way. I know because I learned the hard way but after practicing once a week for several months just using that around the practice green you can hit just about every shot you need to with the 58. I believe that Stan Utley is a proponent of only using a 58 degree around the green I think I heard. I like that idea and almost exclusively use it around the green but as my short game improves I've been able to start using other clubs.

Sorry for such a long post but I hope this helps. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you!
 
rbarthle17 said:
It's thick just not long enough that I'd feel comfortable trying a flop of any kind. The fringe is the first place I felt could land and not grab the ball and that was 10' from the hole. Didn't have the touch to land it there I ended up landing it near the hole but it rolled way past it. I'm all about learning to use my clubs better was just curious what the difference really was.
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It's all about not using the sole at all for flops. If you are using the sole in that the sole is interacting with the ground where the grass/dirt meet, then you are done. It's hard to do but you can open the club and with the right stance pull it off, just make sure that you are aligned right because I pull this off standing very close to the ball with it played towards my front foot. Because of the sole it's hard to open and be aimed up correctly too. Just use the loft of the club and not the sole if that makes sense. It's kind of hard to explain but I had the same issues the OP did when I first got it. It took a while but I've been able to get the precision I want while still using the benefits of the wide sole on the shots that I need that forgiveness for.

I have a friend that got the same club after he saw mine. The difference is that my friend does not practice at all and is a 20 hc. He hates the SW and took it out of his bag. He does play the 42 and 49 degrees. For him the forgiveness of those clubs which in my opinion the 42 has the most forgiveness then the 49 t hen the 58, is the most important.
 
Vegan702 said:
Sounds like it is more of a club issue than anything. Maybe get a different wedge and try it, I imagine from the name "smart sole" it has a very thick sole and doesn't let you open it up at all.
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It is an open club thing as you have to open the club but NOT USE THE SOLE for a flop shot. I find the 58 smart sole very easy to hit flop shots with and do so all the time. It took a loooong time though as at first I ran into the same issue as the op.
 
Wow , you can do flop shot with smart sole ?? ��LOL , can you make video ?
 
I've played the smart sole 1 and 2 58* since last year. Given you can't really open up the face to flop you have to really watch how much how much you deloft at impact. If I want to hit a high shot I setup with my hands behind the clubhead and play a stiff armed shot and not let my wrists hinge. This is how I play short sided bunker shots as well.
 
If your interested in pulling off flop, mini flop or any open face wedge shot I would highly recommend getting MacDaddy PM grind. It seems Like the club automatically begs for an open face shot even on tight lies.
 
GMAMAS GOLF said:
JB is spot on. NO flop shots unless your name is Tiger or Phil!!!
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I would more compare it to a good bluff in poker. Its not hard to do BUT you need the right place, time and conditions to think about pulling it off.
 
Most of the time in that situation I use my 56* PM-grind and hit a lower trajectory spinner with the ball back in my stance a little bit and try to land it in front of the flag. The only time I try to hit a flop shot is if I'm short sided with a bunker or hazard in the way, then the goal is to just make it onto the green and hopefully walk away with a 2-putt, taking my medicine, and maybe learning a lesson because of it.
 
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