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a few points about pro pace and how/why it relates to us or if it should

HoosierGolfer said:
I think a HUGE number of professional golfers are upset by the pace of play. From the Euro Tour release; http://www.golfchannel.com/news/gol...d=facebook-gc-a-euro-tour-on-slow-play-012016

“The reaction from players has been extremely positive.”

The fix has to start with the tour bodies and then the USGA, the R&A and the PGA of America have to get serious.
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Reading the article I would have to say a small fine is not going to do it. The amounts of money earned for the top finishers is far outweighed by a couple thou worth a fine. I think many would be glad to pay the fine in order to take more time with given decisions and shots which in turn would then be crucial towards winning. Imo if they realy want to get serious and impose penalty, then impose it where any other golf penalty is usually imposed. Let it cost them strokes. Most anything that has to do with the rules of play are penalty stroke related. Why should this be any different? I mean heck, just for a point of argument allow one after hitting into water hazard a choice between a stroke or 2800 fine and I'll bet they take the fine because its often worth far more that that to place higher. So they really want to be serious? forget a fine and make it a stroke every time. Not a warning and then a stroke but a stroke period and on any occasion.

But still I ask......does tour pace really have anything to do with us? Imo it shouldn't be relevant at all. Two very different worlds in every sense with very different circumstances imo.
 
I think pace of play among amateurs rarely has anything to do with pro pace of play. It's mostly due to inconsiderate golfers not being ready and searching for balls for 10 minutes. The pros need to speed up because fans don't want to sit through 5-6 hour rounds on TV.
 
I think it's really silly to look to the PGA tour as the source of these problems. The money alone makes their situations totally unique. They take a bunch of time for each shot, I probably would too if it were my job and that much was on the line. They get away with it to some extent because they're only hitting 72 (give or take) of these shots, have TV crews and galleries finding their golf balls, have caddies to help, and they have probably gotten a lot better over their years of experience.

The amateur game is different. Every course and every region is going to experience success and failure in different ways regarding pace of play. It's silly to think the pro game is the reason for or the solution to the problems in the amateur game.
 
Bucketsofjoy said:
I think it's really silly to look to the PGA tour as the source of these problems. The money alone makes their situations totally unique. They take a bunch of time for each shot, I probably would too if it were my job and that much was on the line. They get away with it to some extent because they're only hitting 72 (give or take) of these shots, have TV crews and galleries finding their golf balls, have caddies to help, and they have probably gotten a lot better over their years of experience.

The amateur game is different. Every course and every region is going to experience success and failure in different ways regarding pace of play. It's silly to think the pro game is the reason for or the solution to the problems in the amateur game.
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I tend to generally agree with you but silly is probably not the most fitting word because many do feel that what people see on tv is what they then emulate. I think the gist of that logic is that when those starting out think the "slowness" of what they see the pros do is normal they then think this is how they should also play this game and therefore new generations of slow players are replenished. And I really couldn't argue that just maybe there is some truth to that logic. I dont think it should be relevant because I think it still has to be understand its 2 different worlds. None the less I think it very possible not everyone sees that point.

But thinking more about some the points you brought up...its quite amazing with all they have going on....via don't have to ever look for a ball, have help determining distances, layout, conditions, what club to use, one would think everything should actually move much faster yet its exactly the opposite. But I don't think its just the money that makes it unique., its also all about everything they are and what they do. And as mentioned earlier there are not 30 groups of 4somes playing waiting behind them. Whats behind them are only other tour pros who will also be taking generally as much time they feel they need to do their very best.
 
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Bucketsofjoy said:
The amateur game is different. Every course and every region is going to experience success and failure in different ways regarding pace of play. It's silly to think the pro game is the reason for or the solution to the problems in the amateur game.
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But it is.
People watch and emulate what they see on tour.
They walk around all of their putts because of it, use the same equipment because of it, wear the same clothes because of it and try the same shots because of it.

The entire campaign of "While we're young" was to show that people should stop trying to emulate the tour and speed up.
 
JB said:
But it is.
People watch and emulate what they see on tour.
They walk around all of their putts because of it, use the same equipment because of it, wear the same clothes because of it and try the same shots because of it.

The entire campaign of "While we're young" was to show that people should stop trying to emulate the tour and speed up.
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You're right, but there are a lot more factors influencing pace of play on our level that aren't represented on tour - searching for balls, mis-hits, etc.

And it is kind of remarkable that with all of the extra aid to the pros that they still take the amount of time they take.

The pros could definitely play faster, for sure. Watch them try to finish their round as the sun is coming down. I see your point about us emulating the pros with stalking putts and whatnot, but the areas where they will really make a difference in their pace of play isn't a complete picture of what amateurs need to do to improve theirs.
 
I think this does come down to the fact that people need to understand the different worlds of what, how, why, we play vs the tour pro stage and life. I mean is it just for a tour pro 2some to take 5+ hours to play? I don't know if it is or not, but regardless it should not be at all relevant to us in the circumstances of which most of us live and also play the game.
 
I do not believe that the actions of the tour pros are the only reasons for slow play by amateurs but it is most certainly a cause. At least with regards to the actions of pros on the greens. The issue of tedious efforts to read the greens has already been addressed. My own pet peeve ( an issue I do attribute to amateurs efforts to emulate the pros ) is the incessant marking of the ball. On far too many occasions, for my mental wellbeing, I have been forced to follow foursomes in which not a single member ever putted out. Last year, I and the members of my regular foursome were subjected to an amazing sight. We witnessed all four members of the group in front of us mark their balls. They then paced off all 4 coins to determine who was away. 4 putts followed. 4 more marks. A relatively quick discussion and only one mark was paced. 4 more putts. No one in. 4 more marks. At this point, it appeared that all coins were within 1 to 2 feet of the cup. We reached that assessment because all 4 golfers stood around the cup trying to determine who was away. We new they were close because two of the group bumped into each other trying to measure the distance to the cup with their fingers. I was only able to survive because the beer was cold and I had packed a half dozen cigars.
 
Bucketsofjoy said:
I think it's really silly to look to the PGA tour as the source of these problems. The money alone makes their situations totally unique. They take a bunch of time for each shot, I probably would too if it were my job and that much was on the line. They get away with it to some extent because they're only hitting 72 (give or take) of these shots, have TV crews and galleries finding their golf balls, have caddies to help, and they have probably gotten a lot better over their years of experience.

The amateur game is different. Every course and every region is going to experience success and failure in different ways regarding pace of play. It's silly to think the pro game is the reason for or the solution to the problems in the amateur game.
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Bucketsofjoy said:
You're right, but there are a lot more factors influencing pace of play on our level that aren't represented on tour - searching for balls, mis-hits, etc.

And it is kind of remarkable that with all of the extra aid to the pros that they still take the amount of time they take.

The pros could definitely play faster, for sure. Watch them try to finish their round as the sun is coming down. I see your point about us emulating the pros with stalking putts and whatnot, but the areas where they will really make a difference in their pace of play isn't a complete picture of what amateurs need to do to improve theirs.
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Pro emulation is probably most imitated on the greens which is one of the places I see a lot of slow play issues.

yes some amateurs look for balls too long. But another issue I see is long pre shot routines and the contemplation on what club to hit or what type of shot they want to play then not execute the shot.

one issue I would like to see at some of the courses I play is more enforcement of oace of play by the Marshall's. There's a few courses that are on top of it and I never had a slow round at those courses. Many of the courses I play don't have Marshall's coming around that often and when they do they don't do anything or have no clue about pace of play.

I played with with a bunch of THPers and we were a threesome and on hole 7 iirc the marshall told us we needed to pick up pace because we were 8 mins behind but ignored the fact we were on the tee box waiting for a foursome to clear the green. He said the would be gone off the next tee box by time we got there, sure enough we finish the hole and had to wait on both the next tee box and second shot
 
After the first putt if I can make it 100% of the time without trampling on peoples lines I putt out. From 3 feet I usually mark quickly, line up and putt the ball back down and putt out. I usually only mark and let everyone else putt if my come backer is over 5 feet or super awkward twister type standing to avoid lines and it is over 3 feet. Honestly 2 footers I usually just pick up and take the gimme because I just don't play courses with challenging enough and fast enough greens that missing a 2 footer is even a realistic outcome.
 
Pro play absolutely is mimicked by far too many amateurs, especially on the greens. Other than very early or late in the day, slow play on public or resorts courses is here to stay because IMO at least 25% of golfers are slow players, but if you ask them they don't think they are playing slow.
 
tahoebum said:
Pro play absolutely is mimicked by far too many amateurs, especially on the greens. Other than very early or late in the day, slow play on public or resorts courses is here to stay because IMO at least 25% of golfers are slow players, but if you ask them they don't think they are playing slow.
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And neither do the 25% of us...lol... Ive seen so many people complain and then when its their turn take all the time they feel they need. And I believe just about any pro (during a tour event) who is dissatisfied with the pace will do the same. Take all the time the feel they need when its their turn. Especially if no one is really stopping them. But again, sorry to be repetitive but none of it imo should matter for what we do anyway because its not relevant. And for those who do feel that pro pace does in part have an affect in our world, I would ask....does that mean we should advocate in any way that the powers to be do something about their pace? I ask this because even if it does have an affect on us, is it fair and just to then force the issue with them when in reality it shouldn't be relevant to us anyway? Perhaps the only issue that needs to be forced and advocated for is the awareness that what the tour pros do (time wise) is not what we need to be doing.
 
The Milk Man said:
I would love to play in your city and state tournaments. Some of the longest rounds I have played have been in tournaments.
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They do not play around with pace of play in TX for TXGA events.


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Maybe the PGA Tour doesn't really mind the slow pace of play. If rounds are 5 hours long, then the more time they are on the air means they get more time to put on commercials and means they would make more money?
 
arwin said:
Maybe the PGA Tour doesn't really mind the slow pace of play. If rounds are 5 hours long, then the more time they are on the air means they get more time to put on commercials and means they would make more money?
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If they wanted more air time, they could just televise more of the rounds. Dragging out rounds on TV is hardly a way to grow interest in the game.
 
arwin said:
Maybe the PGA Tour doesn't really mind the slow pace of play. If rounds are 5 hours long, then the more time they are on the air means they get more time to put on commercials and means they would make more money?
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Nothing makes me want to turn the channel more than showing Furyk putting and his entire routine instead of cutting to him when he is actually about to putt.
 
JB said:
But it is.
People watch and emulate what they see on tour.
They walk around all of their putts because of it, use the same equipment because of it, wear the same clothes because of it and try the same shots because of it.

The entire campaign of "While we're young" was to show that people should stop trying to emulate the tour and speed up.
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While I agree with you, I also think lack of courtesy is a factor. Too many people looking for lost balls for 5-10 minutes.
 
Borss said:
While I agree with you, I also think lack of courtesy is a factor. Too many people looking for lost balls for 5-10 minutes.
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But it was one of my last pro v1s....
 
LPGA play seems to go faster than PGA play. I watched the Pure Silk and the women seemed to be playing what I'd call a very reasonable pace of play for a tournament, finishing the back nine in about 2 hrs. thus making the round about a 4:15 - 4:30 pace if you include the potty break at the turn. I wonder why that is. Is it because the first place money was only $210,000? Or is it because women just play faster? I know men can be real drama queens on the course, taking an excruciating length of time to line up that putt, but then there's more money at stake. Miss and it's a $200,000 putt. But Charley Hull, in all fairness had her drama queen moment making a "colorful remark" right here (don't watch if you have sensitive ears), but she picked up her club and got on with it:



I followed the Mickelson twosome at the US Open on my cell phone this summer and it was excruciating. I did learn things about course management when I wasn't multitasking on my PC. They were pretty bloody slow. But the group in front of them was pretty slow, too. And I saw Tiger shoot an 80 or was it a 79 in the pair with Ricky who shot an 80 or 79. That was pretty painful, and I felt for them. But thought... I might learn something because they're playing like crap.

Over the weekend at Torrey Pines in the bad weather, it was amazing how the pace picked up because they wanted to get off the course and back inside, because no one in their right mind wants to stand outside agonizing over a putt in that weather.
 
^Charley Hull owns!

Pro's routinely walk 18-20 miles per week and despite their tedious pre-shot routines, shots, chips and putting they HAUL ARSE between holes with zero wasted time so they somewhat make up for all that other stuff. If you've seen it in person you know what I'm talking about and you can also catch it on tv.

Weekend warriors on the other hand...............spend a minute just getting back to their cart and then another putting clubs away, cracking beers, figuring out scores, etc before meekly driving away.
 
I usually play golf with a regular group of friends and we play ready golf. Sometimes we have a 78-year old with us, or a lady, and we all walk, but we're done in 4 hours.

I can understand pros taking their time because what they're doing costs money. I can't agree that taking their time improves their game - I can sometimes guess that a flub is about to happen because there's too much second-guessing going on.

What the pros are doing isn't helping slow play with the amateurs since we tend to emulate them.

If I see slow play on the course, I either tell the slow guys or find a marshal if I don't know them.

The record was six hours. That was a long day.

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I think one of the things that causes slow play in the PGA is the amount of money that's involved in a round. The LPGA plays faster because, well, there's not much money involved. The top money winner in the LPGA won $2.0 million last year - Lydia Ko. The top money winner in the PGA won over $12 million - Jordan Speith. We have to go to #26 Kevin Na in the PGA before we reach Lydia Ko's level, and in the LPGA once you reach #10 the money drops to around $900,000. In the PGA you have to go way down to around #100 before you get to that level.

So in the PGA, that putt on the 17th hole of a major tournament on a stimp 14 green could be worth $500,000. I don't know about you, but if that was me, I'd be lining it up from about 10 different angles. Pace be damned.
 
Half the college players are really slow as well though.
 
InTheRough said:
I think one of the things that causes slow play in the PGA is the amount of money that's involved in a round. The LPGA plays faster because, well, there's not much money involved. The top money winner in the LPGA won $2.0 million last year - Lydia Ko. The top money winner in the PGA won over $12 million - Jordan Speith. We have to go to #26 Kevin Na in the PGA before we reach Lydia Ko's level, and in the LPGA once you reach #10 the money drops to around $900,000. In the PGA you have to go way down to around #100 before you get to that level.

So in the PGA, that putt on the 17th hole of a major tournament on a stimp 14 green could be worth $500,000. I don't know about you, but if that was me, I'd be lining it up from about 10 different angles. Pace be damned.
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yes but whatever amount of money might be considered large is all only relative. So in the world of the LPGA the purses and year end tally's are much lower but its still very (and just as) relative in their world as the mens money is to them. Its still just as important in relative terms. They are still playing to earn a living (at least the top percentile are). In fact, it may actually be more important because there is less earnings in general so the extra 20,000 for finishing a little higher may even mean more to them than an extra 80,000 is to a man for finishing a liittle higher who already earned so much more in the first place. The less money one earns, the greater the meaning of each dollar.
 
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