Divot as a GUR

[gizmo3putt]

My 2 cents:

I could care less if someone else rolls their ball behind the divot that 'should have been repaired'. I leave it up to the individual to decide if the divot is nasty enough to warrant a move. I'll play mine from where it is or take a 'unplayable'.

Here's something to ponder: It's late fall and you stripe one right down the middle. You get to where your ball should be and all you see is leaves everywhere and can't find it. You know it's under a leaf somewhere but can't find it. Everyone in your group knows and acknowledges it 'should be right here'. Grounds crew should have done a better and/or more recent cleanup of the leaves. Do you go back and hit 3 off the tee or drop some guesstimated spot and play on?


Sh!t happens by nature or by ground crews or by lazy golfers. So unless your at 'The Hideaway' this situation will come up pretty well every round.

 

[Canadan]

Your not one imo to come off the wrong way, but I would ask what does low cap have to do with that? Negligence should piss you off regardless of cap.

Yeah, I figured that would bite me and I should have expanded. I would never discount an opinion based on skill, and I am really not sure there is any way to make this sound okay -- but I'll certainly try. With one stroke against the course when I play, a single error can make the difference between me shooting below or above my cap. For higher handicaps, they have a bit more flexibility on a single shot error, as they have more strokes to work with. Essentially, what does one stroke mean to a 1 handicap vs a 20? I'd argue quite a bit more, but I could be wrong.

 

[rollin]

Yeah, I figured that would bite me and I should have expanded. I would never discount an opinion based on skill, and I am really not sure there is any way to make this sound okay -- but I'll certainly try. With one stroke against the course when I play, a single error can make the difference between me shooting below or above my cap. For higher handicaps, they have a bit more flexibility on a single shot error, as they have more strokes to work with. Essentially, what does one stroke mean to a 1 handicap vs a 20? I'd argue quite a bit more, but I could be wrong.

I knew you didn't mean any negative intent
But I would disagree with the meaning of one stroke. Its all relative and all equally annoying and meaningful.

Firstly, simply due to the nature of a higher capper's inconsistencies he may find he/she ends up in unlucky situations more often. He's taking more strokes and also being more errant and inconsistent with those more strokes so may actually end up in unlucky (or what seems unfair) situations more often. So that in itself may not be the one stroke once in a rare while but actually happen a bit more than that. Plus, when he/she does hit the better shots which are more rare then yours and then ends up in a divot, he/she will feel very badly because they don't have as many great shots and now that they succeeded at creating one, it landed in an unlucky situation. That is of great frustration and holds a lot of value because they are not as easily to come by as yours are. And over all scores are still scores. weather its breaking 100 or 90 or 80 or 70. Or simply trying to get handicap lowered, a stroke is a stroke and means the same to all. Its all relative to everyone and within their world is important. Ask the player who never broke 90 and shot 90 that day but lost a stroke due to the divot landing if it was important. I think you know the answer. trust me, it was every bit important to him/her in their world as yours was to you in yours.

 

[BigCountryStein]

That's something we'll never agree on. In my opinion, golfers should get rewarded for great shots, and negligence or carelessness of others should not be a factor as to whether they have a fair opportunity to hit the green/make a putt. That's why I am so strongly against dealing with things like divots in a fairway, footprints in a bunker, and drag marks on a green.

I understand the 'why' from the USGAs point of view, but I simply don't agree. If the course designers had intended their fairways to play torn up they would have done a bad job seeding. If they had intended their bunkers to be trashed, they wouldn't leave rakes out. If they intended their greens to be uneven, they'd have the cutters out there dragging their feet.

Like tahoe said last night, some things are better off in the 'agree to disagree' category and this is clearly one of them. Nothing pisses me off more as a low cap than seeing negligence on a golf course costing myself or my playing partners strokes.

I 100% agree with you Canadan, golfers shouldn't be punished for hitting a good shot. And the opposite applies too (for me) golfers shouldn't be rewarded for bad shots. It works both ways though which is why divots, etc. don't bother me.

You can hit a stripe down a blind fairway and end up with the ball a yard above your feet, thin it, and end up 2 feet for birdie. In the end it's 1 good shot, 1 bad shot, 1 reward and 1 "penalty".

 

[BigCountryStein]

How the punches roll and the bounces even out doesn't add up everytime but that's why you shoot low rounds and high rounds. Ultimately, a strong player should be able to recover mentally with the mind set of "Oh this is a really bad break, a good one is coming soon to even it out" and think of a way to make a par.

Also nobody should take any malice to Dan's handicap comment. I don't like to speak for other people but I comprehended it as a scoring thing and not a high handicappers ruin golf courses thing. 1 stroke means our day is over sometimes, it really sucks when that happens.

 

[GolfFest]

If you fill a divot with sand it is to repair it. That sounds a lot like ground under repair to me.

 

[kensisland]

I learned a while ago to stay relatively quite on rules conversations (especially when you're relatively new), because I do believe we need to have recreational vs pro ... I think more folks would stick with the game ... in my humble opinion ..

I only come out of a lurker status now, to say I could not agree more with @Canadan (and couple others) and I appreciate him expressing his view point.

 

[Canadan]

Also nobody should take any malice to Dan's handicap comment. I don't like to speak for other people but I comprehended it as a scoring thing and not a high handicappers ruin golf courses thing. 1 stroke means our day is over sometimes, it really sucks when that happens.

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say. If you take it hole to hole, and as a near scratch I don't have a stroke to give, while the nearish 18 handicap has a stroke on the hole, I would guess it'd be an easier pill to swallow for the higher handicap as they'd still have four strokes to get into the hole vs my three. Seems like the 'luck' favours them with the pop --- However I still think it sucks equally for both.

If you fill a divot with sand it is to repair it. That sounds a lot like ground under repair to me.

haha, exactly.

 

[rollin]

How the punches roll and the bounces even out doesn't add up everytime but that's why you shoot low rounds and high rounds. Ultimately, a strong player should be able to recover mentally with the mind set of "Oh this is a really bad break, a good one is coming soon to even it out" and think of a way to make a par.

Also nobody should take any malice to Dan's handicap comment. I don't like to speak for other people but I comprehended it as a scoring thing and not a high handicappers ruin golf courses thing. 1 stroke means our day is over sometimes, it really sucks when that happens.

No one said he was being mean. And it certainly didn't insult me. I don't believe he is that kind of guy I also understood he was talking about score.

But still that thought process is wrong imo. A stroke is a stroke and its all relative and it matters just the same in everyone's different world so long as they want it to. I mean some higher cappers may not care about the one stroke as much but for those who do and for whatever reasons they have , there is just no justification for one saying its any less important, any less the day ruiner, or any less meaningful.. That stroke ruined your day but it cant also ruin it for another just the same who happens to be a higher capper too? In my example of the player who shot a 90 and never broke 90 it can be very much the same day ruining thing as your stroke was to you. Or a player like me who has ben in the 80's plenty but struggles to stay there. That one stroke which cost me my 89 was huge to me. Or how about tying a new PB vs beating it by a stroke? How about just being one stroke better every round regardless of the fluctuations and just trying tom improve consistency to be a better over all player. Every stroke is important in every round towards ones goals. I am sorry but being very good at golf does not somehow make scores, or even one stroke any more important, more meaningful, or any less of a bummer than it does to anyone else. Just like you wanted that 71, player x wanted his 81, or player z his 91. Its all the same bummer.

 

[CBaker]

No one said he was being mean. And it certainly didn't insult me. I don't believe he is that kind of guy I also understood he was talking about score.

But still that thought process is wrong imo. A stroke is a stroke and its all relative and it matters just the same in everyone's different world so long as they want it to. I mean some higher cappers may not care about the one stroke as much but for those who do and for whatever reasons they have , there is just no justification for one saying its any less important, any less the day ruiner, or any less meaningful.. That stroke ruined your day but it cant also ruin it for another just the same who happens to be a higher capper too? In my example of the player who shot a 90 and never broke 90 it can be very much the same day ruining thing as your stroke was to you. Or a player like me who has ben in the 80's plenty but struggles to stay there. That one stroke which cost me my 89 was huge to me. Or how about tying a new PB vs beating it by a stroke? How about just being one stroke better every round regardless of the fluctuations and just trying tom improve consistency to be a better over all player. Every stroke is important in every round towards ones goals. I am sorry but being very good at golf does not somehow make scores, or even one stroke any more important, more meaningful, or any less of a bummer than it does to anyone else. Just like you wanted that 71, player x wanted his 81, or player z his 91. Its all the same bummer.

I completely disagree. When you are a high handicap, you have a lot of space to make up or lose those strokes. When you are a handicap of 1, to maintain that, you have almost no room for error. It's basically exponential. 1 stroke to someone near scratch is the equivalent to lets say 4 or 5 strokes to someone much higher. Whole different ball game when dealing with handicaps, which is 100% what that comment was based on from how I took it. It's about reaching and maintaining a certain handicap, not how important personally that one stroke might turn out to be.

It's the same reason why it is much easier to go from say a 20 HC to a 15 vs. going from a 10 to a 5, or 5 to scratch. Those 5 stroke differences are not created equal.

 

[Canadan]

No one said he was being mean. And it certainly didn't insult me. I don't believe he is that kind of guy I also understood he was talking about score.

But still that thought process is wrong imo. A stroke is a stroke and its all relative and it matters just the same in everyone's different world so long as they want it to. I mean some higher cappers may not care about the one stroke as much but for those who do and for whatever reasons they have , there is just no justification for one saying its any less important, any less the day ruiner, or any less meaningful.. That stroke ruined your day but it cant also ruin it for another just the same who happens to be a higher capper too? In my example of the player who shot a 90 and never broke 90 it can be very much the same day ruining thing as your stroke was to you. Or a player like me who has ben in the 80's plenty but struggles to stay there. That one stroke which cost me my 89 was huge to me. Or how about tying a new PB vs beating it by a stroke? How about just being one stroke better every round regardless of the fluctuations and just trying tom improve consistency to be a better over all player. Every stroke is important in every round towards ones goals. I am sorry but being very good at golf does not somehow make scores, or even one stroke any more important, more meaningful, or any less of a bummer than it does to anyone else. Just like you wanted that 71, player x wanted his 81, or player z his 91. Its all the same bummer.

The logic is imperfect, I can own that. It's extremely tough to define genuine value to an individual stroke, and I'm certainly not trying to... More focused on the scratch likelihood of actually hitting the green from a fairway rather than a fairway divot vs an 18 handicap hitting a green from a fairway vs a fairway divot. I would assume, based on the strokes given, that the likelihood of missing is far greater for the 18 handicap, so being in a divot (assuming it's not an awful one) doesn't have as great of an impact on final score.

Once again, I'm not saying it sucks less, at all. I'm saying the potential of impacting scores, if you put the numbers/players against each other, may favour the higher handicap because the expected result of a fairway shot NOT in a divot is of greater likelihood to leave him chipping (or worse) onto the green.

 

[BigCountryStein]

cbaker2882 got it right. Going from a 1 to a 0 is 100x (exaggeration) harder than going from a 18 to a 17. I'm not sure what the real number is but I will try and find a sheet put out by one of my local clubs on handicap improvement and post it here when I do.

Not trying to thread jack but it is an interesting topic, and a divot as G.U.R. or not directly relates to potential gain or loss of stroke(s) and their value is just a part of it.

 

[Smallville]

I completely disagree. When you are a high handicap, you have a lot of space to make up or lose those strokes. When you are a handicap of 1, to maintain that, you have almost no room for error. It's basically exponential. 1 stroke to someone near scratch is the equivalent to lets say 4 or 5 strokes to someone much higher. Whole different ball game when dealing with handicaps, which is 100% what that comment was based on from how I took it. It's about reaching and maintaining a certain handicap, not how important personally that one stroke might turn out to be.

It's the same reason why it is much easier to go from say a 20 HC to a 15 vs. going from a 10 to a 5, or 5 to scratch. Those 5 stroke differences are not created equal.

Just throwing out another view. If you are a low handicap, you're a better golfer, and more likely to get a better shot out of that divot hole than a high handicap. So where a low cap hits a bad shot for them it's still a lot better shot than the high handicapper. A bad shot from the divot hole for a high handicap could lead to much more than a single extra stroke because of said hole..

I do say to take it out of the hole regardless if you want, unless it's for money and you are playing everything down or if it's a tournament, who really cares?

 

[The Milk Man]

Let me ask this of the guys in the rule should be changed or you can pull the ball out of a divot camp. If you hit a perfect iron shot that hits the stick and the ball ricochets into a hazard. Should you be able to put the ball next to hole and not count the penalty strokes.

To me this is the same as ending up in a divot. It is a bad break nothing more nothing less.

 

[Canadan]

Let me ask this of the guys in the rule should be changed or you can pull the ball out of a divot camp. If you hit a perfect iron shot that hits the stick and the ball ricochets into a hazard. Should you be able to put the ball next to hole and not count the penalty strokes.

To me this is the same as ending up in a divot. It is a bad break nothing more nothing less.

The flagstick is an intentional part of the golf course, and is how it was intended to be played. It is also not ground under repair.

So my answer to that is no. The pin is not GUR and should not be played as such.

 

[CBaker]

Just throwing out another view. If you are a low handicap, you're a better golfer, and more likely to get a better shot out of that divot hole than a high handicap. So where a low cap hits a bad shot for them it's still a lot better shot than the high handicapper. A bad shot from the divot hole for a high handicap could lead to much more than a single extra stroke because of said hole..

I do say to take it out of the hole regardless if you want, unless it's for money and you are playing everything down or if it's a tournament, who really cares?

From the same view point though, if the high handicap was only going to hit the green 1 out of every 10-15 shots, then is it really effecting them at all? While on the flip side, from even a semi-decent lie the very low cap might hit the green 8-9 out of 10 from the similar situation. So if someone hits a massive divot (which I love taking pelts) and I don't put it back or fill the spot, I feel like it hurts the low cap more.

But...in the end I'm with you. if someone is in a massive divot that some jack wagon who doesn't care about anyone else out there who didn't fix or fill it, then just drop behind it.

 

[Drumdog]

Until the rule changes to make divots gur in the fairway, I will play the ball as it lies.
I do hope someday that will make that change.

 

[BigCountryStein]

Just throwing out another view. If you are a low handicap, you're a better golfer, and more likely to get a better shot out of that divot hole than a high handicap. So where a low cap hits a bad shot for them it's still a lot better shot than the high handicapper. A bad shot from the divot hole for a high handicap could lead to much more than a single extra stroke because of said hole..

I do say to take it out of the hole regardless if you want, unless it's for money and you are playing everything down or if it's a tournament, who really cares?

That's getting super personal though. I've met and played with fairly average or even poor ball strikers who would fair pretty badly out of a divot but are still a 10 cap or better. What if a guy is having a bad ball striking day? He could hit it worse than the highest hc in the group.

I'm with you on the last part though. If it's not for money or a tournament then who cares.

 

[DaBuckBoys]

I would think your course would have marked this area with white paint as GUR. At least they should have.

Just paint a white stripe across the cart path leading to the first tee...

 

[Richard Rodgers]

Divots really can be a pain in the butt if a ball is in a deep one but the vast majority of time I bet most of us don't end up in one very often, and if you play at a course where fairways are in such bad shape, then maybe it is due to the players, greenkeepers or whoever not doing their jobs properly.

Golf is a game that is not meant to be easy and course designers of old would prob have cried at how manacured and easy today's courses are. We are all pitting our witts aganst the designer's twisted mind, nature and our own ineptitude. If you land in a divot, so what. Play out of it. In days gone by bunkers were NEVER raked. Now that made for some interesting lies in the sand.

If people think it should be GUR relief from a divot because it is not in keeping with the normal billiard table smooth fairways we have, what about if my ball bounces off the sprinkler head in the fairway that gives the billiad table smoothness and ends up stuck under the face of a fairway bunker 20 yards right of where my ball hit the fairway. I guess you would say to me 'tough luck old boy' rather than thinking I have been the victim of a non natural part of the course architecture and should therefore get relief.

I think we all have to accept good and bad breaks on the course and not keep trying to make the game easier and more sanitised by creating 2 million rules to cover all eventualities.

Play the ball as it lies is the fundamental ethos of this wonderful game which is why we keep coming back for punishment week after week.

 

[rollin]

That's getting super personal though. I've met and played with fairly average or even poor ball strikers who would fair pretty badly out of a divot but are still a 10 cap or better. What if a guy is having a bad ball striking day? He could hit it worse than the highest hc in the group.

I'm with you on the last part though. If it's not for money or a tournament then who cares.

Just to throw some fuel on our friendly little fire
If that low capper is having a "bad day" then the stroke (according to the argued logic) should then not be as much as a big deal anymore anyway since his round is no longer up to standards anyway.
Just sayin.......lol

 

[BigCountryStein]

Just to throw some fuel on our friendly little fire
If that low capper is having a "bad day" then the stroke (according to the argued logic) should then not be as much as a big deal anymore anyway since his round is no longer up to standards anyway.
Just sayin.......lol

Well if they're a quitter then I guess it wouldn't matter, no. I've gone under par with less than 9 GIR's, so bad ball striking days don't keep me down, and divots don't either.

 

[Canadan]

Divots really can be a pain in the butt if a ball is in a deep one but the vast majority of time I bet most of us don't end up in one very often, and if you play at a course where fairways are in such bad shape, then maybe it is due to the players, greenkeepers or whoever not doing their jobs properly.

Golf is a game that is not meant to be easy and course designers of old would prob have cried at how manacured and easy today's courses are. We are all pitting our witts aganst the designer's twisted mind, nature and our own ineptitude. If you land in a divot, so what. Play out of it. In days gone by bunkers were NEVER raked. Now that made for some interesting lies in the sand.

If people think it should be GUR relief from a divot because it is not in keeping with the normal billiard table smooth fairways we have, what about if my ball bounces off the sprinkler head in the fairway that gives the billiad table smoothness and ends up stuck under the face of a fairway bunker 20 yards right of where my ball hit the fairway. I guess you would say to me 'tough luck old boy' rather than thinking I have been the victim of a non natural part of the course architecture and should therefore get relief.

I think we all have to accept good and bad breaks on the course and not keep trying to make the game easier and more sanitised by creating 2 million rules to cover all eventualities.

Play the ball as it lies is the fundamental ethos of this wonderful game which is why we keep coming back for punishment week after week.

I think comparing 'landing in a divot' to a freak of nature bounce is pretty unfair... Considering I see balls in divots often and have never seen a ball jump right right off a fairway to get plugged in a bunker.

We already have a rule for GUR. Including divots in the fairway in that rule doesn't create 2 million rules. I get the whole 'purist' thing, but come on.

 

[rollin]

Well if they're a quitter then I guess it wouldn't matter, no. I've gone under par with less than 9 GIR's, so bad ball striking days don't keep me down, and divots don't either.

It was said in relation to your argument that the lower capper has more to lose or more meaning with the stroke than the higher capper. What you said in response to "smalls' post was a bit contradicting to your initial debate with me. I was poking fun at that.

 

[Richard Rodgers]

I think comparing 'landing in a divot' to a freak of nature bounce is pretty unfair... Considering I see balls in divots often and have never seen a ball jump right right off a fairway to get plugged in a bunker.

We already have a rule for GUR. Including divots in the fairway in that rule doesn't create 2 million rules. I get the whole 'purist' thing, but come on.

Yes Dan, we do already have a GUR rule in both the US and the rest of the world, but any GUR area is determined locally by the golf club committee to cover a particular situation that they have at any given time and any such GUR area is usually so marked with a coloured paint ring on the ground and either a sign or GUR painted in that area. This is one of several rules that are set at local level and always subject to change with course conditions.

If the condition of the fairways at a course are so bad, and people are not doing their jobs filling the divots in meaning that an inordinate number of players end up in one, the club can make a local rule to cover this
sort of abnormal ground condition. Quite how they would police what actually constitutes a divot that you could obtain relief from, God alone knows. It is not as straight forward as determining an animal scrape and so would be open to much debate and abuse. The safest option is to leave things as they are and simply put being in a divot down to bad luck. We all get it, but we all get good luck at times as well but we NEVER hear people moaning about their good luck do we.

I can not remember the last time I had a ball stop in a divot. Now, I may well just be lucky (going to do a lottery ticket tomorrow just in case), or perhaps you boys over the pond have too much time on your hands and do more golf than work whereby increasing the chance of a divot. Or poss that the courses where this happens the most are just plainly in crap condition.