Corona Virus/COVID19: Local Impact

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Golfer Guys and Gals;

I have pretty much just monitored this thread but remained silent for the past several days. Those who read my previous comments know that I have been most concerned that testing has been and remains a key weakness of our country's response the coronavirus and Covid-19 pandemic. I noted that Deming, the father of total quality management, was famous for saying "You can't manage what you can't measure." That is a big part of what has happened and continues to happen both here and around the world. Testing for both diagnostic and management purposes have been a complete failure, and the results are pretty obvious. The testing has been and remains flawed and far short of the effort that is needed. It is the key resource that has not been mobilized to address the pandemic. We don't really know what is happening and have few insights other than blunt measures about what might be beneficial. That concern remains, but I have also been trying to better understand how we f....... this up so badly in the wealthiest and one of the most technologically advanced nations on this Earth.

What I have found is that there has been willfull ignorance and dismissal of facts, data, science, and warnings based on that information among those whose responsibilities include keeping America and Americans safe and functional at all levels. I am not stating this as a political indictment. I am stating it as the simple reality that people in positions of power and influence have royally screwed the pooch (for whatever reasons), and the broad public of the country is and will continue to bear the consequences.

If any of you want to interpret this as a political statement, I think you miss my point. All of us need to become as familiar as possible with the underlying truths relating to the spread of the disease, the risk it poses to us individually and collectively, the actions that appear to be working (and those that don't), and the path out of this. One thing we need to look at carefully is how we managed to get to this point. I just reviewed 88 pages of emails posted by infectious disease experts across the country and others in that small community of people involved in infectious disease control. I recommend that all of you review these real-time, contemporaneous communications as the virus spread across the world and the United States. They portray a group of professionals scared Sh**le**, addressing how to get the message out and how to effectively respond, and wondering how and why the virus was being so ignored by so many for so long in the United States. It paints a chilling portrait of knowledgable observers watching incompetence running wild. Their emails projected disastrous consequences that have largely evolved, though belated efforts across the United States have moderated the impacts somewhat in some areas.

As some of you know, my wife and I returned to the USA from New Zealand on March 29. We had been self-isolating there for 8 days before we flew to Vancouver, B.C. and drove home. I had been carefully following what was happening and what measures were being taken or were on the horizon that might impact our safety and our ability to get home. We thought about staying in New Zealand, where they were clearly taking early and decisive steps to prepare for and battle the pandemic. We could have, but in the end we wanted to be home and felt our somewhat isolated community here in the islands would be more shielded from the Covid-19 impacts than most other parts of Western Washington. Fortunately, that has proved true so far. We have self-isolated at our home since we got back and it seems like perhaps we have avoided the coronavirus in spite of being in two crowded airports and flying 13 hours on a full aircraft. We will continue to self-isolate until the end of April out of an abundance of caution and also to ensure that we won't turn out to be asymptomatic carriers of the virus who might infect others.

We are not the brightest bulbs on the tree, but due to professional experience we can look at data and interpret it pretty well. If any of you think a good job has been done in the United States, or that it is the best that could be done in a bad situation, I suggest you investigate the experiences in other countries - most notably New Zealand. The Prime Minister there came to the stage earlier in the process than might have been politically optimal for her. (She also faces an election this fall.) Above all else, she is a great communicator. She was blunt, truthful, and yet empathetic with the worries of her people. She invoked New Zealand's highest level of emergency security and basically shut the country down on March 25. She also imposed controls on immigration, which is easier in her island nation than here or in Europe, and publicized effectively what is needed from the populace in this situation and why. She also brought the resources to bear necessary to conduct extensive testing and contact tracing of the infection. Her most powerful message was BE KIND TO EACH OTHER. The result is that, as of yesterday, New Zealand has had 1,349 confirmed cases and 5 deaths. They are admittedly later on the curve than we are. But, to put this in perspective compared to the USA, where we have about 62 times the population of New Zealand, if we had the same success in terms of the rate of deaths, about 310 Americans would have died, not 22,861. Twice that many people are dying every day in New York City alone.

After watching all this carefully, I also have concluded that we have to get over our national delusion that the United States is #1 in everything and smarter than the rest of the world. Right now, the only thing we are #1 in that really matters is Covid-19 confirmed infections and recorded deaths. There was an effective test for coronavirus infection available from Germany while our CDC efforts were failing, but it was rejected mostly because it "wasn't invented here" and would not accrue commercial benefit to our pharma industry. That is terribly sad and utterly disgusting .

I will now shut up and largely go back to just reading the posts on this site, though I might have something to say about wine from time to time.

Be well. Be kind. Be calm.
 
Comparing the nature of data between a country like New Zealand and the state of NY doesn't make a whole lot of sense though.

New Zealand has less than 50 people per square mile.
NYC has 27,000 people per square mile.

Even if you used their most crowded city of Auckland it would literally pale in comparison to NYC.

You could use Utah as a parallel. They have only 18 deaths.
 
Golfer Guys and Gals;

I have pretty much just monitored this thread but remained silent for the past several days. Those who read my previous comments know that I have been most concerned that testing has been and remains a key weakness of our country's response the coronavirus and Covid-19 pandemic. I noted that Deming, the father of total quality management, was famous for saying "You can't manage what you can't measure." That is a big part of what has happened and continues to happen both here and around the world. Testing for both diagnostic and management purposes have been a complete failure, and the results are pretty obvious. The testing has been and remains flawed and far short of the effort that is needed. It is the key resource that has not been mobilized to address the pandemic. We don't really know what is happening and have few insights other than blunt measures about what might be beneficial. That concern remains, but I have also been trying to better understand how we f....... this up so badly in the wealthiest and one of the most technologically advanced nations on this Earth.

What I have found is that there has been willfull ignorance and dismissal of facts, data, science, and warnings based on that information among those whose responsibilities include keeping America and Americans safe and functional at all levels. I am not stating this as a political indictment. I am stating it as the simple reality that people in positions of power and influence have royally screwed the pooch (for whatever reasons), and the broad public of the country is and will continue to bear the consequences.

If any of you want to interpret this as a political statement, I think you miss my point. All of us need to become as familiar as possible with the underlying truths relating to the spread of the disease, the risk it poses to us individually and collectively, the actions that appear to be working (and those that don't), and the path out of this. One thing we need to look at carefully is how we managed to get to this point. I just reviewed 88 pages of emails posted by infectious disease experts across the country and others in that small community of people involved in infectious disease control. I recommend that all of you review these real-time, contemporaneous communications as the virus spread across the world and the United States. They portray a group of professionals scared Sh**le**, addressing how to get the message out and how to effectively respond, and wondering how and why the virus was being so ignored by so many for so long in the United States. It paints a chilling portrait of knowledgable observers watching incompetence running wild. Their emails projected disastrous consequences that have largely evolved, though belated efforts across the United States have moderated the impacts somewhat in some areas.

As some of you know, my wife and I returned to the USA from New Zealand on March 29. We had been self-isolating there for 8 days before we flew to Vancouver, B.C. and drove home. I had been carefully following what was happening and what measures were being taken or were on the horizon that might impact our safety and our ability to get home. We thought about staying in New Zealand, where they were clearly taking early and decisive steps to prepare for and battle the pandemic. We could have, but in the end we wanted to be home and felt our somewhat isolated community here in the islands would be more shielded from the Covid-19 impacts than most other parts of Western Washington. Fortunately, that has proved true so far. We have self-isolated at our home since we got back and it seems like perhaps we have avoided the coronavirus in spite of being in two crowded airports and flying 13 hours on a full aircraft. We will continue to self-isolate until the end of April out of an abundance of caution and also to ensure that we won't turn out to be asymptomatic carriers of the virus who might infect others.

We are not the brightest bulbs on the tree, but due to professional experience we can look at data and interpret it pretty well. If any of you think a good job has been done in the United States, or that it is the best that could be done in a bad situation, I suggest you investigate the experiences in other countries - most notably New Zealand. The Prime Minister there came to the stage earlier in the process than might have been politically optimal for her. (She also faces an election this fall.) Above all else, she is a great communicator. She was blunt, truthful, and yet empathetic with the worries of her people. She invoked New Zealand's highest level of emergency security and basically shut the country down on March 25. She also imposed controls on immigration, which is easier in her island nation than here or in Europe, and publicized effectively what is needed from the populace in this situation and why. She also brought the resources to bear necessary to conduct extensive testing and contact tracing of the infection. Her most powerful message was BE KIND TO EACH OTHER. The result is that, as of yesterday, New Zealand has had 1,349 confirmed cases and 5 deaths. They are admittedly later on the curve than we are. But, to put this in perspective compared to the USA, where we have about 62 times the population of New Zealand, if we had the same success in terms of the rate of deaths, about 310 Americans would have died, not 22,861. Twice that many people are dying every day in New York City alone.

After watching all this carefully, I also have concluded that we have to get over our national delusion that the United States is #1 in everything and smarter than the rest of the world. Right now, the only thing we are #1 in that really matters is Covid-19 confirmed infections and recorded deaths. There was an effective test for coronavirus infection available from Germany while our CDC efforts were failing, but it was rejected mostly because it "wasn't invented here" and would not accrue commercial benefit to our pharma industry. That is terribly sad and utterly disgusting .

I will now shut up and largely go back to just reading the posts on this site, though I might have something to say about wine from time to time.

Be well. Be kind. Be calm.
I am sorry. But, that's comparing apples to oranges. New Zealand and the USA are very different in population density and exposure to foreign travelers. Does New Zealand have a hub like NYC that sees as many foreign travelers at such a high population density? Saying that we could have somehow cut our deaths down to 310 is very narrow sighted.

That's like saying if New York would have handled it the same way as North Dakota they would only have 8,275 confirmed cases and 200 deaths. And, North Dakota doesn't even have a stay at home order in place. But, it's not really a fair comparison since they are completely different in population density and overall exposure to the virus.

ND has 331 positive cases and 8 deaths compared to NY's 188,000 cases and 9,385 deaths.
 
Comparing the nature of data between a country like New Zealand and the state of NY doesn't make a whole lot of sense though.

New Zealand has less than 50 people per square mile.
NYC has 27,000 people per square mile.

Even if you used their most crowded city of Auckland it would literally pale in comparison to NYC.

You could use Utah as a parallel. They have only 18 deaths.
I was just about to say the same thing. For comparison, the population of South Carolina is about the same as New Zealand, but SC is about a quarter of the land size.
 
Golfer Guys and Gals;

I have pretty much just monitored this thread but remained silent for the past several days. Those who read my previous comments know that I have been most concerned that testing has been and remains a key weakness of our country's response the coronavirus and Covid-19 pandemic. I noted that Deming, the father of total quality management, was famous for saying "You can't manage what you can't measure." That is a big part of what has happened and continues to happen both here and around the world. Testing for both diagnostic and management purposes have been a complete failure, and the results are pretty obvious. The testing has been and remains flawed and far short of the effort that is needed. It is the key resource that has not been mobilized to address the pandemic. We don't really know what is happening and have few insights other than blunt measures about what might be beneficial. That concern remains, but I have also been trying to better understand how we f....... this up so badly in the wealthiest and one of the most technologically advanced nations on this Earth.

What I have found is that there has been willfull ignorance and dismissal of facts, data, science, and warnings based on that information among those whose responsibilities include keeping America and Americans safe and functional at all levels. I am not stating this as a political indictment. I am stating it as the simple reality that people in positions of power and influence have royally screwed the pooch (for whatever reasons), and the broad public of the country is and will continue to bear the consequences.

If any of you want to interpret this as a political statement, I think you miss my point. All of us need to become as familiar as possible with the underlying truths relating to the spread of the disease, the risk it poses to us individually and collectively, the actions that appear to be working (and those that don't), and the path out of this. One thing we need to look at carefully is how we managed to get to this point. I just reviewed 88 pages of emails posted by infectious disease experts across the country and others in that small community of people involved in infectious disease control. I recommend that all of you review these real-time, contemporaneous communications as the virus spread across the world and the United States. They portray a group of professionals scared Sh**le**, addressing how to get the message out and how to effectively respond, and wondering how and why the virus was being so ignored by so many for so long in the United States. It paints a chilling portrait of knowledgable observers watching incompetence running wild. Their emails projected disastrous consequences that have largely evolved, though belated efforts across the United States have moderated the impacts somewhat in some areas.

As some of you know, my wife and I returned to the USA from New Zealand on March 29. We had been self-isolating there for 8 days before we flew to Vancouver, B.C. and drove home. I had been carefully following what was happening and what measures were being taken or were on the horizon that might impact our safety and our ability to get home. We thought about staying in New Zealand, where they were clearly taking early and decisive steps to prepare for and battle the pandemic. We could have, but in the end we wanted to be home and felt our somewhat isolated community here in the islands would be more shielded from the Covid-19 impacts than most other parts of Western Washington. Fortunately, that has proved true so far. We have self-isolated at our home since we got back and it seems like perhaps we have avoided the coronavirus in spite of being in two crowded airports and flying 13 hours on a full aircraft. We will continue to self-isolate until the end of April out of an abundance of caution and also to ensure that we won't turn out to be asymptomatic carriers of the virus who might infect others.

We are not the brightest bulbs on the tree, but due to professional experience we can look at data and interpret it pretty well. If any of you think a good job has been done in the United States, or that it is the best that could be done in a bad situation, I suggest you investigate the experiences in other countries - most notably New Zealand. The Prime Minister there came to the stage earlier in the process than might have been politically optimal for her. (She also faces an election this fall.) Above all else, she is a great communicator. She was blunt, truthful, and yet empathetic with the worries of her people. She invoked New Zealand's highest level of emergency security and basically shut the country down on March 25. She also imposed controls on immigration, which is easier in her island nation than here or in Europe, and publicized effectively what is needed from the populace in this situation and why. She also brought the resources to bear necessary to conduct extensive testing and contact tracing of the infection. Her most powerful message was BE KIND TO EACH OTHER. The result is that, as of yesterday, New Zealand has had 1,349 confirmed cases and 5 deaths. They are admittedly later on the curve than we are. But, to put this in perspective compared to the USA, where we have about 62 times the population of New Zealand, if we had the same success in terms of the rate of deaths, about 310 Americans would have died, not 22,861. Twice that many people are dying every day in New York City alone.

After watching all this carefully, I also have concluded that we have to get over our national delusion that the United States is #1 in everything and smarter than the rest of the world. Right now, the only thing we are #1 in that really matters is Covid-19 confirmed infections and recorded deaths. There was an effective test for coronavirus infection available from Germany while our CDC efforts were failing, but it was rejected mostly because it "wasn't invented here" and would not accrue commercial benefit to our pharma industry. That is terribly sad and utterly disgusting .

I will now shut up and largely go back to just reading the posts on this site, though I might have something to say about wine from time to time.

Be well. Be kind. Be calm.

There is so much to unpack, where to begin?

26B5314D-17BD-47B9-A2CF-563098DCD0BE.jpeg

Let’s start here...
This ⬆️ is the per capita coronavirus death rate: comparing the United States and major European countries.

Many in the media use per capita numbers to discredit the number of tests we’ve run and then flip and use total number of deaths without taking per capita totals into account there.

It’s pretty transparent fear porn not to be consistent with both numbers.

COVID19 deaths adjusted by per capita:

1. Spain
2. Italy
3. Belgium
4. France
5. Netherlands
6. UK
7. Switzerland
8. Sweden
9. USA

Some just need to turn CNN off, and look at this logically.

What this New Zealand comparison doesn’t account for is the fact 7,500 people die each day in the US.

Nor that CDC approved marking Covid 19 as COD without actually testing and confirming it was the exact COD.

Death by regular influenza and complications like pneumonia are virtually non existent during this same period of time. See the Pneumonia Death chart ⬇...

A1936191-4AD7-4787-B2A8-68831912D5C4.jpeg

Something isn’t adding up...

I appreciate the time and the effort in posting your take, but I just can’t get to your conclusions...
 
There is so much to unpack, where to begin?

View attachment 8937172

Let’s start here...
This ⬆ is the per capita coronavirus death rate: comparing the United States and major European countries.

Many in the media use per capita numbers to discredit the number of tests we’ve run and then flip and use total number of deaths without taking per capita totals into account there.

It’s pretty transparent fear porn not to be consistent with both numbers.

COVID19 deaths adjusted by per capita:

1. Spain
2. Italy
3. Belgium
4. France
5. Netherlands
6. UK
7. Switzerland
8. Sweden
9. USA

Some


Something isn’t adding up...

I appreciate the time and the effort in posting your take, but I just can’t get to your conclusions...

That's a really good chart. Shows how off the wall poorly Spain and Italy managed the situation. I've seen posted here that Italy wasn't a great comparison though, because of the demographic differences to the US. Still, those two took way too long to put in social distancing measures and the chart shows that info clearly. The UK is struggling badly, as the slope represented there is not good at all. The bad news for the US, being 9th worst isn't necessarily something to brag about. It feels from afar like it's being dealt with locally about average, specially given the population density of certain areas, but also the timeline of when the uptick started. Could have been better, could have been worse from a mortality standpoint.
 
This Virus is a Statistician Dream Scenario.
A good statistician can make the numbers dance anyway they want them to...
 
That's a really good chart. Shows how off the wall poorly Spain and Italy managed the situation. I've seen posted here that Italy wasn't a great comparison though, because of the demographic differences to the US. Still, those two took way too long to put in social distancing measures and the chart shows that info clearly. The UK is struggling badly, as the slope represented there is not good at all. The bad news for the US, being 9th worst isn't necessarily something to brag about. It feels from afar like it's being dealt with locally about average, specially given the population density of certain areas, but also the timeline of when the uptick started. Could have been better, could have been worse from a mortality standpoint.

Italy was always a bad comparison, because of the difference in demographics.

We are handling this state by state, and that’s probably the correct thing to do because not every state is NY, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
 
Italy was always a bad comparison, because of the difference in demographics.

We are handling this state by state, and that’s probably the correct thing to do because not every state is NY, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
Yeah, as probably some dense cities in other countries are being affected worse than their country sides. Makes sense to put in measures depending on area demographics; no argument here.
 
Newest projections from the IHME push total US deaths back up to almost 69,000.

NY, NJ, LA, and MI are all beyond projected peak use and peak death rate dates.
 
County next to mine is now instituting a mandatory curfew between 9pm and 5am. Okay, not a whole lot of reason to be out at that time anyway. No tickets or fines, just kinda like uh hey, what are you doing out? Alright, whatever. Not a massive issue, IMO. They're voting Thursday to make it mandatory to wear masks though when out in public. Uhhhh..... So you'd rather make masks, an already near impossible item to find, even more impossible to find and mandatory. This seems like really dumb thinking?
 
Density definitely plays a part, but at the same time it doesn't explain away everything. We were caught flat-footed when it came to testing. South Korea/Hong Kong aren't exactly pastoral countries, and they've fared far better than we have.
 
There is so much to unpack, where to begin?

View attachment 8937172

Let’s start here...
This is the per capita coronavirus death rate: comparing the United States and major European countries.

Many in the media use per capita numbers to discredit the number of tests we’ve run and then flip and use total number of deaths without taking per capita totals into account there.

It’s pretty transparent fear porn not to be consistent with both numbers.

COVID19 deaths adjusted by per capita:

1. Spain
2. Italy
3. Belgium
4. France
5. Netherlands
6. UK
7. Switzerland
8. Sweden
9. USA

Some just need to turn CNN off, and look at this logically.

What this New Zealand comparison doesn’t account for is the fact 7,500 people die each day in the US.

Nor that CDC approved marking Covid 19 as COD without actually testing and confirming it was the exact COD.

Death by regular influenza and complications like pneumonia are virtually non existent during this same period of time. See the Pneumonia Death chart ...

View attachment 8937175

Something isn’t adding up...

I appreciate the time and the effort in posting your take, but I just can’t get to your conclusions...

If you’re going to regurgitate Clay Travis on here, just paste in his tweets, it’s much less work on your end.

Also, the composition of the “Council to Re-Open America” doesn’t have one medical provider on it. Pretty easy to see the direction that will go in. But to that end, interesting to see that the West Coast states (CA, OR, WA) go with a coalition between the governors on re-opening those states, and a number of East Coast states (NY, NJ, CT, RI, PA, DE) announce the same thing today. The cynic in me thinks those governors wanted to steal some thunder from the federal government’s announcement tomorrow. The optimist in me hopes for cooperation between the Feds and these coalitions.
 
Density definitely plays a part, but at the same time it doesn't explain away everything. We were caught flat-footed when it came to testing. South Korea/Hong Kong aren't exactly pastoral countries, and they've fared far better than we have.

Can we really say Hong Kong fared better than us when we have no idea about accurate data?
 
Iceland has definitely handled it well, around 10% of total population tested (admittedly they have less than 360k overall population) but at least it’s a good indicator for what testing can do


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If you’re going to regurgitate Clay Travis on here, just paste in his tweets, it’s much less work on your end.

Also, the composition of the “Council to Re-Open America” doesn’t have one medical provider on it. Pretty easy to see the direction that will go in. But to that end, interesting to see that the West Coast states (CA, OR, WA) go with a coalition between the governors on re-opening those states, and a number of East Coast states (NY, NJ, CT, RI, PA, DE) announce the same thing today. The cynic in me thinks those governors wanted to steal some thunder from the federal government’s announcement tomorrow. The optimist in me hopes for cooperation between the Feds and these coalitions.

I just want to clarify the above. I don't think there is any stealing. The Feds have stated they want the States to get their own equipment and ventilators and to bid against each other -- so the States are taking responsibility as to opening. I think the next phase is going to be a shitstorm. My opinion is that we need full testing and levels of quarantine - you are more likely, it seems. to catch Covid from a family member/those to whom you are in physical contact. I believe China had to place family members who had the virus into a separate faciliity to watch them over a 2 week period. I don't thiink Americans will go for wrenching family members from each other.

And until we know, have a vaccine, etc., I don't think business will bounce back as we all want. Was reading up on those predictions today. We need some certainty - I hope health/pharma gives us certainty asap.
 
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Iceland has definitely handled it well, around 10% of total population tested (admittedly they have less than 360k overall population) but at least it’s a good indicator for what testing can do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As I recall, I believe I read that 50% of their population that did test positive also never had any symptoms. Granted that is a smaller sample but hopefully shows trends toward showing that lots of people have been exposed with no ill effects.
 
My wife works for the largest healthcare company in the U.S. and the data so far is showing 86% of those dying from Covid 19 are comorbid patients meaning they have at least two chronic diseases such as high blood pressure or diabetes. The average Covid 19 age of death is 78 and here in MN it's age 88.
 
These comparisons between countries with wildly different sizes, populations, rates of travel, cultures, governments, etc, is heavily strained, IMO.

How many people came to Iceland and New Zealand from China? Per The NY Times 430,000 people arrived in the US from direct flights from China between the date China announced the virus and the date of the travel ban.

Do people really think the type of contact tracking South Korea used would have flied here? Their testing regimen means nothing if the population doesn’t consent to disclosing all personal contacts and travel to the government.

We are huge, have immense freedoms, a bill of rights and a sense of personal liberties, a curious divergent governing system with state and federal laws. The approach of (insert country name) won’t work precisely the same way here.
 
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These comparisons between countries with wildly different sizes, populations, rates of travel, cultures, governments, etc, is heavily strained, IMO.

How many people came to Iceland and New Zealand from China? Per The NY Times 430,000 people arrived in the US from direct flights from China between the date China announced the virus and the date of the travel ban.

Do people really think the type of contact tracking South Korea used would have flied here? Their testing regimen means nothing if the population doesn’t consent to disclosing all personal contacts and travel to the government.

We are huge, have immense freedoms, a bill of rights and a sense of personal liberties, a curious divergent governing system with state and federal laws. The approach (insert country name) won’t work precisely the same way here.


Exactly right. NZ is about the same population as my home state of MN and has almost exactly the same number of cases but with fewer deaths. NZ is also likely earlier on their CV19 curve than MN. It’s much more valid to compare NZ to someplace like Norway or MN that has a similar population, population density, and balance of urban vs rural population.
 
About 2 million people are not paying their mortgage payment according to the Wall Street Journal, an enormous leap from prior.
Non-payment of rent is skyrocketing as well.
 
We have a a friend who flew not too long ago and he said he had the entire row to himself, and not just the three seats in his row but the 3 seats in the row across from him too. Said the airline made sure everyone was super spread out. Glad to see they did that for you too. Crazy to think just a few months ago flights were oversold and people were getting bumped off, and now a full flight is 24 people.

My wife’s friend is a FA with Southwest. On her last flight there was 1, that’s right 1, passenger. The main reason the flight still went was due to cargo.


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Well supposedly NJ can do something right.. Rutgers developed a saliva test that should get results in 24-48 hours
 
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