how much of it is the head/ how much is the shaft?

[Speedliner]

I am personally much more variable than any range of equipment changes. I have noticed that weight seems to matter a lot to me though. Much more so than flex. It's not just swing weight either, overall weight seems important too. Too heavy and I tend to push, too light and I tend to pull. That's not to imply all shots suddenly go left or right, but misses are a little more exaggerated in those directions.

Only difference I think I notice is feel. But that would be on misses. A fitter told me that feel difference is real, but is the result of torque, not flex, but stiffer shafts tended to have less torque, so...

 

[JuKu]

I think that it is mostly in the head. Grip plays a role, too. Equipment comes far behind.
:tongue:

 

[Plin]

I strongly believe that there is a shaft out there that will improve your score, more than any other head will do, however that is with a consistent golf swing in mind. With that said, no matter how consistent of a ball striker you are, if you are using the wrong equipment, you're cheating yourself out of your full potential.

Shaft length, weight, flex and frequency all contribute to the timing and cernter-ness of strike, if any one of those is off, it will cause the golfer to try and compensate, ultimately creating bad habits in your swing. Having a proper fitted shaft is paramount, no amount of new technology in the head can fix a poorly struck ball due to poor swing or poor shaft fit.

 

[Wilson Staffer]

I agree that shafts are much more important than club head design although both are important. When you're fit, you're being fit for shaft length, flex and torque as well as weight. The design of the head has some to do with it but lie and loft can always be adjusted. Shafts are ultimately fit and will directly affect perfomance, ball flight and kick. I do agree that there are obviously clubheads with more forgiveness but a well struck ball will get it up regardless of head design. Shafts are way more important.

 

[blugold]

I agree that shafts are much more important than club head design although both are important. When you're fit, you're being fit for shaft length, flex and torque as well as weight. The design of the head has some to do with it but lie and loft can always be adjusted. Shafts are ultimately fit and will directly affect perfomance, ball flight and kick. I do agree that there are obviously clubheads with more forgiveness but a well struck ball will get it up regardless of head design. Shafts are way more important.

It's interesting because it has been found over and over that the head is the most important factor. No shaft will alter a clubhead's design.

 

[JB]

I agree that shafts are much more important than club head design although both are important. When you're fit, you're being fit for shaft length, flex and torque as well as weight. The design of the head has some to do with it but lie and loft can always be adjusted. Shafts are ultimately fit and will directly affect perfomance, ball flight and kick. I do agree that there are obviously clubheads with more forgiveness but a well struck ball will get it up regardless of head design. Shafts are way more important.

Im very curious where you were fit, because I disagree with this.
I think you can test it for yourself now if you to take one shaft that is the same and put it in two different heads and then take the same head and change the shaft and hit both 10 times and see what comes up. I think you will find the head will make a very large difference.

 

[blugold]

Im very curious where you were fit, because I disagree with this.
I think you can test it for yourself now if you to take one shaft that is the same and put it in two different heads and then take the same head and change the shaft and hit both 10 times and see what comes up. I think you will find the head will make a very large difference.

By different heads, do you mean loft and lie, or design? maybe both?

 

[ironcondor]

Since I am a gear ho, in my experiences swapping gear/shafts since starting to play, I think the shaft IS as important as "we" tend to think it is....especially for a driver. At least I do. The amp cell was all over the place for me with the fuel...tried a kusala blue and it was night and day. Like a whole new club. That said, I still think the driver head is THE most important factor, but I think shaft fitting/etc is important enough that it shouldn't be ignored. Everyone's swing varies too much to say it's not important.

 

[-CRW-]

I'm sort of a shaft guy, but only because I saw so much improvement on good shots with certain shafts. I think ultimately what it came down to was weight, not flex or torque. Right or wrong, I swing hard and fast. That being said, heavy shafts help keep my swing where it needs to be more often and I see better results. The main difference I see in heads is launch (I assume bc of loft?), and distance (I assume because of launch?).

Here's a good article from Tom Wishon on shafts:

http://wishongolf.com/how-important-is-the-shaft-in-the-performance-of-golf-clubs/

 

[jochan90]

Was just thinking about posting this link today in a new thread, but glad I found this one. Seems like pretty concrete evidence to me...

http://youtu.be/dCT9RWhSTEM

 

[Wilson Staffer]

Im very curious where you were fit, because I disagree with this.
I think you can test it for yourself now if you to take one shaft that is the same and put it in two different heads and then take the same head and change the shaft and hit both 10 times and see what comes up. I think you will find the head will make a very large difference.

As I stated in my post I think both are important....just not equally important. There isn't a club head design in the world that will make up for a poorly fitted shaft. The shaft is the engine behind the machine. I was fitted by Mark Knowles...former Pac 10 golfer at WSU and now assistant pro at Gold Mountain in Gorst Wa.

 

[Wilson Staffer]

Interesting debate though I've heard it before on other forums. The newer graphite shafts are the cats meow. I couldn't hit graphite for **** 15 years ago.

 

[JB]

As I stated in my post I think both are important....just not equally important. There isn't a club head design in the world that will make up for a poorly fitted shaft. The shaft is the engine behind the machine. I was fitted by Mark Knowles...former Pac 10 golfer at WSU and now assistant pro at Gold Mountain in Gorst Wa.

If this is what you believe, and its working for you, all the power to you.
Every golfer's body will adjust to the tendencies of the shaft. That is human nature.
A golfer can hit the same shots with a ladies flex that they can with a steel shafted XFlex.

The perfect example of this is take a golfer and send him out with the proper fitting shafts and muscle back's from 1975. Then send him out with ill-fitting shafts on the most forgiving irons out there. Let me know how the proper fitting shafts work.

 

[Plin]

If this is what you believe, and its working for you, all the power to you.
Every golfer's body will adjust to the tendencies of the shaft. That is human nature.
A golfer can hit the same shots with a ladies flex that they can with a steel shafted XFlex.

The perfect example of this is take a golfer and send him out with the proper fitting shafts and muscle back's from 1975. Then send him out with ill-fitting shafts on the most forgiving irons out there. Let me know how the proper fitting shafts work.

I think maybe we're having some discrepancies on which shaft and head we're talking about, in regards to irons, I agree that heads make just as much difference as the shafts, but when it comes to drivers the shaft will have much more pronounced difference.

I believe that ultimately it's about how center is your strike and how often, if we are talking about forgiveness, then fundamentally we are discussing what happens to mis-hits, where a head plays the most important role. This is the part where I believe rather than compensate for mis-hits, a properly fitted golfer with the right shaft and a good head will find the center more often and create better shots. Where even with the most forgiving head and the wrong shaft, the golfer will still have to compensate more often to try to find the center of the club face. (ie. Earlier 2013 Tiger struggles to find the center with his driver, they increased his shaft weight to 'tame' his transitions.)

 

[JB]

I think maybe we're having some discrepancies on which shaft and head we're talking about, in regards to irons, I agree that heads make just as much difference as the shafts, but when it comes to drivers the shaft will have much more pronounced difference.

I believe that ultimately it's about how center is your strike and how often, if we are talking about forgiveness, then fundamentally we are discussing what happens to mis-hits, where a head plays the most important role. This is the part where I believe rather than compensate for mis-hits, a properly fitted golfer with the right shaft and a good head will find the center more often and create better shots. Where even with the most forgiving head and the wrong shaft, the golfer will still have to compensate more often to try to find the center of the club face.

Ill be honest, it shouldnt matter. Sure length of club will have an impact as it does on the golf swing, but you could take my same thought process and put it in drivers. Hell, loft alone has the biggest impact in launch of anything outside of the swing. There is absolutely no way any shaft will have more impact than the loft of the club. Weighting of club, CG location, perimeter weighting, shaft, grip, ball, etc will all have an impact, but none as much as the club head they are attached to and even more less than the swing that is being put on it.

 

[JB]

To further explain. Take a persimmon wood from the 70s and a current driver from today. Both the same loft and length. In one put the properly fitted shaft and in the other, the flimsiest noodle ladies flex graphite shaft you can find. Take 20 swings with each one. Tell me which one offers better numbers. I can tell you as fact that when testing this on the range, with more than a dozen THPers at multiple THP Events it was the ill fitting shaft compared to the persimmon wood. Why? If the shaft is more important, it wouldnt really matter as long as loft is correct.

The human body is a hell of thing. It was ways to adapt that people overlook far too often.

 

[Wilson Staffer]

Even in irons. The reason knockoffs are so cheap is due to the stock Apollo shafts. Now if you upgrade to like a PX, KBS or an offering from true temper then you'll have a very expensive cart. Take a company like acer or pine meadow and check their stock shaft offerings. All club heads are cast and forged at the same foundries in china regardless of OEM. 431 stainless and 17-4 stainless is in most knockoff clubheads we see out there. I personally wouldn't game a knockoff but there really isn't anything wrong with knockoff heads unless it's cast from zinc or an aluminum alloy.

 

[JB]

Even in irons. The reason knockoffs are so cheap is due to the stock Apollo shafts. Now if you upgrade to like a PX, KBS or an offering from true temper then you'll have a very expensive cart. Take a company like acer or pine meadow and check their stock shaft offerings. All club heads are cast and forged at the same foundries in china regardless of OEM. 431 stainless and 17-4 stainless is in most knockoff clubheads we see out there. I personally wouldn't game a knockoff but there really isn't anything wrong with knockoff heads unless it's cast from zinc or an aluminum alloy.

Not sure how this is attached to this discussion, but they are not all the same. Different types of steel are used in all types of irons. Carpenter steel, SUP 10, etc.

As I have said all along, shafts are an important part of the equation, but people are getting far too caught up with the whole "engine of the club" and more important. Its just not the case and has been shown over and over again.

 

[Plin]

Perhaps we're at an impasse. For the average golfer, which one would you fix first? A shaft way too stiff, or a face not the most forgiving? I don't doubt that with athleticism, any one can swing any club with some sort of results, Ali swung out of his shoes and made perfect contact on his first swing ever.

But for those not so gifted, to fit them, I wouldn't keep changing head design till I find one that fits, but rather the shaft with proper weight, length and torque till they find that it works most of the time, then we tune the head lie and loft to get the best results.

Just from personal results I've change my iron shafts 3 times this past season with the same head, finally on my third set did I find the trajectory and shot shape I desire. If the shaft doesn't matter so much, my results should have been the same.

My buddy who just started golfing, have barely honed his swing, manages to pipe straight drivers down the middle with the old Nike Sumo (I call it the duck) with a UST Regular flex shaft, he switched over to the new Nike Covert 2.0, which is tested to be the most forgiving club head with a Kurokage Stiff shaft, results are he starts spraying all over the place. I switched his shafts, now he's back to finding the middle. I guess I'm a sucker for results.

 

[JB]

Perhaps we're at an impasse. For the average golfer, which one would you fix first? A shaft way too stiff, or a face not the most forgiving? I don't doubt that with athleticism, any one can swing any club with some sort of resorts, Ali swung out of his shoes and made perfect contact on his first swing ever.

But for those not so gifted, to fit them, I wouldn't keep changing head design till I find one that fits, but rather the shaft with proper weight, length and torque till they find that it works most of the time, then we tune the head lie and loft to get the best results.

Just from personal results I've change my iron shafts 3 times this past season with the same head, finally on my third set did I find the trajectory and shot shape I desire. If the shaft doesn't matter so much, my results should have been the same.

My buddy who just started golfing, have barely honed his swing, manages to pipe straight drivers down the middle with the old Nike Sumo (I call it the duck) with a UST Regular flex shaft, he switched over to the new Nike Covert 2.0, which is tested to be the most forgiving club head with a Kurokage Stiff shaft, results are he starts spraying all over the place. I switched his shafts, now he's back to finding the middle. I guess I'm a sucker for results.

We definitely are.
Because there is quite a bit flawed in this post, but I have said my piece and will move on.
People will believe what they will believe, and all we can do here at THP is impart actual info, straight from testing and R&D from the best in the world.

 

[blugold]

As I stated in my post I think both are important....just not equally important. There isn't a club head design in the world that will make up for a poorly fitted shaft. The shaft is the engine behind the machine. I was fitted by Mark Knowles...former Pac 10 golfer at WSU and now assistant pro at Gold Mountain in Gorst Wa.

The idiot swinging the club is the engine, the shaft just holds the head in place. No shaft will change the dynamics and design of a club head.

Perhaps we're at an impasse. For the average golfer, which one would you fix first? A shaft way too stiff, or a face not the most forgiving? I don't doubt that with athleticism, any one can swing any club with some sort of resorts, Ali swung out of his shoes and made perfect contact on his first swing ever.

But for those not so gifted, to fit them, I wouldn't keep changing head design till I find one that fits, but rather the shaft with proper weight, length and torque till they find that it works most of the time, then we tune the head lie and loft to get the best results.

Just from personal results I've change my iron shafts 3 times this past season with the same head, finally on my third set did I find the trajectory and shot shape I desire. If the shaft doesn't matter so much, my results should have been the same.

My buddy who just started golfing, have barely honed his swing, manages to pipe straight drivers down the middle with the old Nike Sumo (I call it the duck) with a UST Regular flex shaft, he switched over to the new Nike Covert 2.0, which is tested to be the most forgiving club head with a Kurokage Stiff shaft, results are he starts spraying all over the place. I switched his shafts, now he's back to finding the middle. I guess I'm a sucker for results.

The Covert 2.0 is the most forgiving driver head? The Nike Sumo was a high MOI club, SUMO stands for Super MOI. Again, apples and oranges with the club heads.

 

[Plin]

This is not unlike the discussion I read yesterday about F.L.O and Pure/Spine alignment for shafts. People swears by it, the science is sound but some people call it hokum.

 

[Plin]

The idiot swinging the club is the engine, the shaft just holds the head in place. No shaft will change the dynamics and design of a club head.



The Covert 2.0 is the most forgiving driver head? The Nike Sumo was a high MOI club, SUMO stands for Super MOI. Again, apples and oranges with the club heads.

What if I told you that the sumo head didn't produce the results with the new shaft? is it still the head that does the work?

Also no one is disputing the head does what the head needs to do, it's simply it can't do that properly if the golfer consistently hit it on the heel or the toe of the club due to an incorrect shaft. It doesn't matter if the club head allows you to hit it 400 yards, it's useless if you can't find the middle.

 

[blugold]

This is not unlike the discussion I read yesterday about F.L.O and Pure/Spine alignment for shafts. People swears by it, the science is sound but some people call it hokum.

It was sound. Modern materials make it unnecessary.

What if I told you that the sumo head didn't produce the results with the new shaft? is it still the head that does the work?

Also no one is disputing the head does what the head needs to do, it's simply it can't do that properly if the golfer consistently hit it on the heel or the toe of the club due to an incorrect shaft. It doesn't matter if the club head allows you to hit it 400 yards, it's useless if you can't find the middle.

How many swings were taken with that new shaft in the old head? I never said that the shaft doesn't matter. It does. I just said that no shaft will change what a clubhead is designed to do. I don't care what you find for a shaft, no offering will make a Callaway 815 Alpha Double Black Diamond a spin machine. It won't happen. No shaft will make an X2hot LD with 6* of loft and high launching head.

If you can't find them middle, its a swing issue. The clubhead doesn't allow you to hit it 400 yards, your swing does. I have yet to find a shaft that corrects a swing path mistake. I have plenty of swing path mistakes, if there was a tube of graphite out there that put my swing on plane, I would buy that shaft.

 

[Plin]

I don't believe a shaft or head for that matter can fix swing mistakes, but a head can't cause a mistake (maybe shape and the way it looks might) A shaft can definitely cause a swing issue. Too light, too heavy, too long, too flexible. No, shafts can't correct what a head already does, but shaft can correct what You are doing to a certain extent. A bad swing is a bad swing, the key to consistent contact is not in the head is all I am saying.

Give a robot same head with different shafts and see if it makes no difference.

PS. I do believe there is a shaft out there, given enough trials will suit you better than whatever you are already playing. My guess is that you found one that works and is good enough. Where I believe there is one out there that is just 'better'