it's o.k. that golf is not football

[echico]

I don't get this one. The problem was PIF offended players 10x more money that the PGAT couldn't afford. The PGAT HAD to change.

Most other sports leagues are fine right now, but If PIF wanted to they could do the same thing and make them look like they had major issues. Like Jay said, you can't compete against unlimited $$.

The problem wasn't that PIF offered the money. The problem was so many golfers took the money. We can make fun of the lower end talent they got but to get DJ, Phil, Brooks, and Bryson from the start was huge. If those players felt like they were willing to take the risk of jumping then things were not all sunshine and rainbows in PGAT land.

As far as the other leagues. Becoming an owner of a team is still controlled by the other owners. It is not as simple as saying that team is for sale so I am going to buy it. Of course all the owners are willing to make more money so if they came in with a good plan I could see the owners approving anyone really. If they want to start a rival league the problem is getting enough players to put a solid product out there. The contracts and unions the players are in currently would prevent the ability to poach enough players to be compelling. MLB would be the one league I look at that could be in trouble but as a player why would you ever give up membership to the players union? You are not poaching the guys under contract that would bring attention. Guys like Harper, Trout, Ohtani, and Judge have guaranteed money and have no reason to jump.

 

[The Milk Man]

I disagree on the part of paying players to be superstars was an initiative and would argue it’s the opposite that superstars got paid to bring the followers that follow them already. The PIP although is disliked by the lower ranked players that don’t receive compensation like the more popular ones, but the popular ones bring more eyes, and ad dollars to the product and are fairly compensated for that. Fans watch for Tiger, Rory, Spieth, and the like not Scott Gutschewski (actual tour member).

Shots fired what did Scott Gutschewski ever do to you? Real props that you knew who Scott G was

 

[jjjgolf500]

The problem wasn't that PIF offered the money. The problem was so many golfers took the money. We can make fun of the lower end talent they got but to get DJ, Phil, Brooks, and Bryson from the start was huge. If those players felt like they were willing to take the risk of jumping then things were not all sunshine and rainbows in PGAT land.

This is probably where the different viewpoints stem from. I could have the perfect job, but if someone offers me 10x the money to work less with no worries about losing said money, I take it.

 

[echico]

This is probably where the different viewpoints stem from. I could have the perfect job, but if someone offers me 10x the money to work less with no worries about losing said money, I take it.

But there is a reason why they are offering you more money. These guys went through hell. Some of them don't care but they lost friends, lost fans, lost sponsorships. They knew all of that was coming and were willing to leave.

 

[blugold]

100% agree about LIV, and in some ways it sure feels like the PGAT is going to turn into LIV whether LIV survives or not. Considering the growing popularity of joggers, music on the course, bro influencers, and whatever that Good Good tournament thing was, maybe that's not a bad thing if that's golf's future.

I think the parallel to soccer is good too. Soccer is the most watched sport because in most of the world that's about all you have. Here is the US we have lots of great alternatives like the NFL/MLB/NHL/NBA so the demand for a sport like soccer remains minimal even after decades of promotion. Golf is already international though and there's no reason why some kid from Uruguay couldn't be the next Tiger. You find a way to tap into that global market that doesn't have a lot of alternatives and there's plenty of money to be made.

Soccer is huge around the world because all you need is some ground, of any size, and a ball.

Golf will never be as popular as soccer because you need big swathes of manicured land and expensive equipment.

The market for golf is remarkably limited

 

[blugold]

My perspective, and the point of this thread topic, is that viewing golf has a relatively small consumer market and as such the Tour management should keep the Tour within a fiscally responsible budget. That means reasonable pricing for tournament corporate sponsors, and good sense prize money for its players.

If the tour does what you say, they will cease to exist. No sponsors are going to pay a bunch of money for tournaments that feature minor league talent because all of the big names play somewhere else.

What you see as the PGA Tour would die.

 

[Golfers Anonymous]

Shots fired what did Scott Gutschewski ever do to you? Real props that you knew who Scott G was

Nothing, I looked down a long list and didn’t recognize a name.

 

[Superscroll]

Not to derail, but it is nuts….like you can’t help yourself nuts. Registers on the Richter scale apparently. I want to go to a Wisconsin game!!

The best part is after they cut sandman off and 60,000 people sing the chorus one last time. It will make your soul tingle.

 

[Louis_Posture]

If the tour does what you say, they will cease to exist. No sponsors are going to pay a bunch of money for tournaments that feature minor league talent because all of the big names play somewhere else.

What you see as the PGA Tour would die.

I disagree.
My take is that the supposed "big names" of recent years are not especially valuable to the success of the PGA Tour. For example, were 50% of the current PGA Tour players to jump ship they could easily be replaced by current Korn Ferry and up coming collegiate players, who would then shoot the same scores at the same courses that the PGA Tour has used for decades.

 

[PuffChippy]

I disagree.
My take is that the supposed "big names" of recent years are not especially valuable to the success of the PGA Tour. For example, were 50% of the current PGA Tour players to jump ship they could easily be replaced by current Korn Ferry and up coming collegiate players, who would then shoot the same scores at the same courses that the PGA Tour has used for decades.

You may be right but that's pretty much what happened over the past year and I know I watch a lot less PGAT because of it. I want to see DJ and Koepka and Sergio and Bryson play, Barney Schornmeister not so much. I know that creates sort of chicken v egg thing but if they're that great they'll probably eventually get paid to go to LIV where I can watch them anyway, assuming nothing changes which it will.

 

[MrDC]

Golf is very different from the NFL and all other sports, I agree any attempt to capture that mentality will fail, the fanbase is not going to grow into an NFL type allegiance.

But people are fans of the PGAT as a whole just like their favorite NFL team, so in a way everyone roots for the same golf team, and that team is above any individual player, but just like we hope our NFL team gets the best players in the game we want the PGAT to feature the best golfers and that's always been the case, not anymore.

So while I think many fans will keep supporting the PGAT no matter what they know the days of the tour having all the best players is over, which is sad, and even if LIV gets all the best many aren't going to support them no matter what happens, so this is a no win situation for a lot of golf fans.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

This is not really a LIV topic, but if the mods want to delete the thread I understand.
People who have played golf can appreciate the game for what it is , and enjoy watching it televised, but this is a relatively tiny market size compared the major spectator sports.
Kids, seniors, women, men all can get into watching NFL and have for decades because it's an aggressive, exciting sport. People love to see the throws and catches , the running and tackling, the back and forth scoring, touchdown celebrations, men wearing helmets etc...
It seems some Tour players and certainly the management of Tour (s) sometimes try to compare pro golf play to pro football or baseball or basketball or soccer etc... And I believe these perspectives are why the Tour (s) have tried to become higher profile , including attempts at identifying-labeling some individuals as "superstars" , and taking initiatives to pay these players more money. To me these efforts seem contrived.
Do you agree with me that golf is a great game , fun to play and watch, but not one that should expect to compete with the larger market major spectator sports franchises of the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and worldwide pro soccer leagues?

And equally the domestic sports that may dominate , other countries viewing habits
…Other codes of football Rugby and AFL for instance
Rugby , and AFL football , Cricket which is enormous

 

[Bosco...]

Golf is a strange blend of event, venue, and players. I think it’s more like the Kentucky Derby in a way. If you’re going, you’re going (or watching). You can watch horse races almost 24/7, but the first Saturday in May is something special. You’ll see those horses for a few races, then never again. I’m more inclined to think the tournament and the course are the stars of the show. At least for me. A “no-name” tour stop is just that.

 

[blugold]

I disagree.
My take is that the supposed "big names" of recent years are not especially valuable to the success of the PGA Tour. For example, were 50% of the current PGA Tour players to jump ship they could easily be replaced by current Korn Ferry and up coming collegiate players, who would then shoot the same scores at the same courses that the PGA Tour has used for decades.

Maybe, but nobody is tuning to watch scores. People tune in to watch names. People don't go to the events to see scores. They go to see names.

If the names are always changing from unknown to unknown, with the known commodities (and let's be honest here - the tour golfers are commodities) will be the draw. The PGA Tour will be the feeder league to LIV. All the big money goes away and it becomes Korn Ferry 2.0. It's Triple A baseball, best case scenario

 

[Louis_Posture]

Maybe, but nobody is tuning to watch scores. People tune in to watch names. People don't go to the events to see scores. They go to see names.

If the names are always changing from unknown to unknown, with the known commodities (and let's be honest here - the tour golfers are commodities) will be the draw. The PGA Tour will be the feeder league to LIV. All the big money goes away and it becomes Korn Ferry 2.0. It's Triple A baseball, best case scenario

Again I disagree. I've been to dozens of Tour events and the gallery is usually split between those who camp out on particular holes and others who follow particular groups.
Other than when Tiger is on the course I've not seen especially large galleries committed to any particular player. The on course spectators are typically well spread out with the largest following the tournament leader. Television is obligated to show the leader (s) shots.
Regarding tournament sponsorship money, if that decreases because certain big names are no longer playing, the Tour can charge less to corporate sponsors, prize money for the players will decrease, and that's fine. There are hundreds of sensational players ready and willing to play for a $700,000 first place check (instead of a $2 million first prize).
Remember, the PGA Tour business model has been working well for 60 years and is proven to be sustainable.

 

[blugold]

Again I disagree. I've been to dozens of Tour events and the gallery is usually split between those who camp out on particular holes and others who follow particular groups.
Other than when Tiger is on the course I've not seen especially large galleries committed to any particular player. The on course spectators are typically well spread out with the largest following the tournament leader. Television is obligated to show the leader (s) shots.
Regarding tournament sponsorship money, if that decreases because certain big names are no longer playing, the Tour can charge less to corporate sponsors, prize money for the players will decrease, and that's fine. There are hundreds of sensational players ready and willing to play for a $700,000 first place check (instead of a $2 million first prize).
Remember, the PGA Tour business model has been working well for 60 years and is proven to be sustainable.

There has only been competition to the tour in the last two years.

What worked in the 90s, 00s, and 10s is irrelevant.

 

[Superscroll]

Golf is very different from the NFL and all other sports, I agree any attempt to capture that mentality will fail, the fanbase is not going to grow into an NFL type allegiance.

Agree for sure. I think the big difference here is golf viewers watch because they also play. So it's like 'damn I had that same distance and lie just yesterday'. You see a guy in one of those insanely deep bunkers on a links course and think 'oh **** no way I could get out of that'. Football doesn't depend on people actively playing the game to be a viewer.

 

[DataDude]

There is space for innovation but as we can see in the multitude of LIV threads here, a lot of golf fans don't want change

I’m not sure I would say golf fans don’t want change, I would certainly say they don’t seem to want the change they’ve been given. There’s a pretty big difference IMO.

 

[DataDude]

A phenomenal but long interview with a sports economist in golf.com if you’re interested.

Saudis, PGA Tour and what billions REALLY mean, as told by a leading expert

Here is a look at the Saudi Arabia PIF, the PGA Tour, the Strategic Sports Group — and what billions really mean, as told by a leading expert.

golf.com

 

[echico]

I’m not sure I would say golf fans don’t want change, I would certainly say they don’t seem to want the change they’ve been given. There’s a pretty big difference IMO.

I think we also have to admit there is a subset of golfers that won't like anything that LIV brings out no matter what.

 

[DataDude]

I think we also have to admit there is a subset of golfers that won't like anything that LIV brings out no matter what.

Nothing wrong with that. Everyone has preferences and sentiments.

 

[Augie53]

I like watching the PGAT. The Tour is deep with talented golfers and new blood up and coming every year. The Tour does a good job of breeding the next popular pro golfers IMO. I say that because I am watching Scottie Scheffler, current #1 in the world at the WM. Scottie just came on to the scene in 2020, he's a new star that was developed through the PGA/Korn Ferry system.

Scheffler is one of the top players in the world yet he did not win the WM Open. I watched players that may not be as well-known battle it out at the top with names like Scheffler, Speith, Thomas, etc. That gives those players credibility and a way to build a future name for themselves. The Tour develops the next generation of players, guys like Ludvig Aberg, Cameron Young, Will Zalatoris, etc., simply by the way it is set up. Golf is the ultimate meritocracy. Lowest score wins. Theoretically, any one of us could play our way into a Monday qualifier, onto the Tour, into the US Open, etc. A closed loop system of "the best playing against the best" every single tournament does not allow for the creation of new superstars.

A given tournament doesn't have to be full of the "top" names in golf. There just has to be enough known names in the field to give credibility to those they are competing against. I know Nick Taylor is a good golfer for having won a PGA tournament even though he may not be a household name.

Long winded way of saying the system has worked for 60 years and will continue to work in the future. The names that left for LIV fade from the public conscience and are replaced by those on the Tour who take advantage of the stage they are on. They forge their skills in the pressure cooker that is the PGAT and when it comes time for the Majors will be ready to compete for titles. The development system works.

 

[echico]

I like watching the PGAT. The Tour is deep with talented golfers and new blood up and coming every year. The Tour does a good job of breeding the next popular pro golfers IMO. I say that because I am watching Scottie Scheffler, current #1 in the world at the WM. Scottie just came on to the scene in 2020, he's a new star that was developed through the PGA/Korn Ferry system.

Scheffler is one of the top players in the world yet he did not win the WM Open. I watched players that may not be as well-known battle it out at the top with names like Scheffler, Speith, Thomas, etc. That gives those players credibility and a way to build a future name for themselves. The Tour develops the next generation of players, guys like Ludvig Aberg, Cameron Young, Will Zalatoris, etc., simply by the way it is set up. Golf is the ultimate meritocracy. Lowest score wins. Theoretically, any one of us could play our way into a Monday qualifier, onto the Tour, into the US Open, etc. A closed loop system of "the best playing against the best" every single tournament does not allow for the creation of new superstars.

A given tournament doesn't have to be full of the "top" names in golf. There just has to be enough known names in the field to give credibility to those they are competing against. I know Nick Taylor is a good golfer for having won a PGA tournament even though he may not be a household name.

Long winded way of saying the system has worked for 60 years and will continue to work in the future. The names that left for LIV fade from the public conscience and are replaced by those on the Tour who take advantage of the stage they are on. They forge their skills in the pressure cooker that is the PGAT and when it comes time for the Majors will be ready to compete for titles. The development system works.

How will those names fade if they keep winning majors?

 

[Augie53]

How will those names fade if they keep winning majors?

If they keep winning, they won't, I suppose. But majors happen 4 weekends out of 52 in a year. Their presence is pretty scarce only being around 4 out of 52, that is by definition fading out of the public eye. Unless the public is showing up in droves to watch LIV, and there is little evidence of that happening. Also, you only get 4 cracks a year, better make them count.

 

[echico]

Did you read the LIV live threads the last 2 weekends? A lot more people watching in more ways than on CW.