it's o.k. that golf is not football

[Louis_Posture]

This is not really a LIV topic, but if the mods want to delete the thread I understand.
People who have played golf can appreciate the game for what it is , and enjoy watching it televised, but this is a relatively tiny market size compared the major spectator sports.
Kids, seniors, women, men all can get into watching NFL and have for decades because it's an aggressive, exciting sport. People love to see the throws and catches , the running and tackling, the back and forth scoring, touchdown celebrations, men wearing helmets etc...
It seems some Tour players and certainly the management of Tour (s) sometimes try to compare pro golf play to pro football or baseball or basketball or soccer etc... And I believe these perspectives are why the Tour (s) have tried to become higher profile , including attempts at identifying-labeling some individuals as "superstars" , and taking initiatives to pay these players more money. To me these efforts seem contrived.
Do you agree with me that golf is a great game , fun to play and watch, but not one that should expect to compete with the larger market major spectator sports franchises of the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and worldwide pro soccer leagues?

 

[Golfers Anonymous]

I disagree on the part of paying players to be superstars was an initiative and would argue it’s the opposite that superstars got paid to bring the followers that follow them already. The PIP although is disliked by the lower ranked players that don’t receive compensation like the more popular ones, but the popular ones bring more eyes, and ad dollars to the product and are fairly compensated for that. Fans watch for Tiger, Rory, Spieth, and the like not Scott Gutschewski (actual tour member).

 

[Hawk]

I think it’s pretty obvious it won’t compete with the major team sports on TV. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t promote the game and its players.

 

[echico]

I can only think of 3 superstars that crossed over to the public eye. Arnold, Jack, and Tiger. After that the other golfers have golf fans and not sports fans. There is nothing wrong with any golf league going out and trying to create more fans. If that is team golf, or elevated events, or indoor sim golf then they are trying. The problem is the TV production doesn't really match what the general public wants to see.

A good look at that is what the UFC did when compared to boxing. The start of the UFC was an absolute joke. Once they got ownership in there that was able to get a solid plan and actually get results the thing took off. What did they do? They made fights that people wanted to see. The in person experience at a fight is the most fun I have had at a sporting event. I have been to a Ryder Cup, CFB National Championship, multiple NFL playoff games, multiple NHL playoff games, multiple NASCAR races, etc. A UFC event is the most fun I have ever had going to a sporting event. Boxing made boxing irrelevant and the UFC added the last shovel of dirt on it. There is space for innovation but as we can see in the multitude of LIV threads here, a lot of golf fans don't want change. If they keep fighting change golf won't grow to compete with anything.

 

[Scott F]

Why shouldn’t it try to compete for spectators, and sponsors? Will it get as big as other pro sports? Probably not, but it’s the job of the PGA to try and grow, maximize income and profit. If they didn’t do their best exploring every avenue to growth of the sport, they’d be negligent. Burger King isn’t McDonalds but they still try to do the best they can marketing their product for maximum profits. Not everything they try will be successful, or popular with everyone.

 

[Superscroll]

Echico maybe try a VT football game if you're ever in Blacksburg on game day. Total blast from tailgating to one of the most iconic entrances in sports to a very fired up crowd on every down.

Re golf on TV I enjoy watching the bigger events if the coverage is well done. I'm probably in the minority here but I'd love to see more 'xxx yards to pin' and 'he's going x iron here' type of stuff. I think it actually gets me close to the peaceful mindset I actually feel on the course.

 

[PuffChippy]

I know far more people who play golf than play football or baseball so in a way one might argue there should be more people watching golf, not less. You're definitely right that football is action packed and exciting, however if it was just a question of exciting vs boring why do so many watch soccer? I played a few years on a traveling soccer team when I was young and absolutely loved it but watching it is warmed over death. Golf absolutely needs more superstars that people care about but if they simply improved the TV coverage I think that would help. Of course LIV tried to do that (and succeeded in parts) but you still see people complain because it's not like the golf they watched back in 1977 so who knows.

 

[Bosco...]

Soccer will never not be the #1 spectator sport. Team franchises are part of the community, it’s an “our town” tribal sorta thing. Grew up outside of D.C. and will always be a Redskins fan. Regardless of how they f’d the name or the fact I haven’t watched them in years. The “team” in golf is essentially the player and they come and go, none bigger than the greats…Arnie, Jack, and Tiger. It becomes watching golf because you like watching golf. If your guy ain’t winning, you’re likely not going to see him. Go in person to watch….sure, yeah. It’s fun if you wanna walk for 4 hours or park yourself and see “your player” walk through.

I just don’t see a family dawning their orange Rickie shirts and inviting the neighbors over to cheer and have beers. I’m not really a “football” guy, my hopefully one day to be son in law played college football and his brother plays for the Chargers. So yeah, we’ll all watch…enjoy stuff together. Maybe gathering for the Masters and doing a whole thing because it’s the Masters, but I don’t see golf ever getting footballish in viewership.

 

[Louis_Posture]

I think it’s pretty obvious it won’t compete with the major team sports on TV. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t promote the game and its players.

I am all for promoting the game and its players, but not in the way the Tour (s) have been doing it recently. In particular, increasing prize money when the consumer market is not there to pay for it is unsustainable. In recent years the PGA Tour has over extended itself financially, which is foolish. And now taking on outside financial partners will exacerbate the problem. None of this nonsense was needed to promote the game.
Also, the concept of elevated or signature events is misguided and counter productive. 'All the best playing against each other' has been trotted out as a goal, but don't believe one that the spectators especially want or need. Throughout golf history it's been interesting and exciting when newcomers or lesser known players emerge to compete for a tournament win.
Smart marketing professionals could have tried creative, cost effective campaigns to promote the Tour and its players. This would have been interesting for the golf fans and likely successful at bringing positive attention to the Tour.

 

[blugold]

Soccer will never not be the #1 spectator sport. Team franchises are part of the community, it’s an “our town” tribal sorta thing. Grew up outside of D.C. and will always be a Redskins fan. Regardless of how they f’d the name or the fact I haven’t watched them in years. The “team” in golf is essentially the player and they come and go, none bigger than the greats…Arnie, Jack, and Tiger. It becomes watching golf because you like watching golf. If your guy ain’t winning, you’re likely not going to see him. Go in person to watch….sure, yeah. It’s fun if you wanna walk for 4 hours or park yourself and see “your player” walk through.

I just don’t see a family dawning their orange Rickie shirts and inviting the neighbors over to cheer and have beers. I’m not really a “football” guy, my hopefully one day to be son in law played college football and his brother plays for the Chargers. So yeah, we’ll all watch…enjoy stuff together. Maybe gathering for the Masters and doing a whole thing because it’s the Masters, but I don’t see golf ever getting footballish in viewership.

Soccer is the #1 spectator sport in the world. The amount of people across the globe that watch soccer is staggering and it's even more staggering considering that the US doesn't really watch. Soccer is globally the most watched sport. The Champions League final draws 4x the viewers as the Super Bowl.

I am all for promoting the game and its players, but not in the way the Tour (s) have been doing it recently. In particular, increasing prize money when the consumer market is not there to pay for it is unsustainable. In recent years the PGA Tour has over extended itself financially, which is foolish. And now taking on outside financial partners will exacerbate the problem. None of this nonsense was needed to promote the game.
Also, the concept of elevated or signature events is misguided and counter productive. 'All the best playing against each other' has been trotted out as a goal, but don't believe one that the spectators especially want or need. Throughout golf history it's been interesting and exciting when newcomers or lesser known players emerge to compete for a tournament win.
Smart marketing professionals could have tried creative, cost effective campaigns to promote the Tour and its players. This would have been interesting for the golf fans and likely successful at bringing positive attention to the Tour.

The things done by the tour, taking in more money and bigger payouts etc. has been a reaction to LIV. Without those steps by the PGA Tour, it's KIA. LIV is upsetting the market in a really powerful way.

 

[Bosco...]

Without those steps by the PGA Tour, it's KIA. LIV is upsetting the market in a really powerful way.

Imagine if LIV was a football league. I wonder what we’d see?

 

[Louis_Posture]

The things done by the tour, taking in more money and bigger payouts etc. has been a reaction to LIV. Without those steps by the PGA Tour, it's KIA. LIV is upsetting the market in a really powerful way.

My perspective, and the point of this thread topic, is that viewing golf has a relatively small consumer market and as such the Tour management should keep the Tour within a fiscally responsible budget. That means reasonable pricing for tournament corporate sponsors, and good sense prize money for its players. This model worked well for the past 60 years and there is no reason it won't continue to do so. Instead of $10 million tournament prize purses the PGA Tour would do just fine with $5 million purses.
Some players leaving the PGA Tour to take money elsewhere should not matter to PGA Tour management. There are hundreds of up and coming sensational players ready and willing to replace the ones who leave the PGA Tour.
Chasing-copying NFL football, soccer , LIV or other external entities is not a good sense path for the PGA Tour and should stop ASAP.

 

[MrDC]

Of course, to play golf is very engaging and not boring in any way IMO, but to watch it? very slow and tedious, no action whatsoever, it's a boring game, pro golf will never be super popular in the US like the other pro sports, not happening, even Tiger didn't create an NFL, MLB level of interest.

So that's why this entire fracturing mess is really dumb, they're just setting the players up for a huge disappointment long term, the masses are not coming to see them play golf, there will be no Jon Rahm jerseys at Target, and without the masses all this money is not going to continue, there is no endless well of cash for golf.

 

[echico]

Imagine if LIV was a football league. I wonder what we’d see?

LIV is more USFL from the 80's. The NFL was vulnerable then and they came to an agreement. The rebranded USFL and XFL among others were not successful because the NFL became too big to disrupt.

 

[Louis_Posture]

Of course, to play golf is very engaging and not boring in any way IMO, but to watch it? very slow and tedious, no action whatsoever, it's a boring game, pro golf will never be super popular in the US like the other pro sports, not happening, even Tiger didn't create an NFL, MLB level of interest.

So that's why this entire fracturing mess is really dumb, they're just setting the players up for a huge disappointment long term, the masses are not coming to see them play golf, there will be no Jon Rahm jerseys at Target, and without the masses all this money is not going to continue, there is no endless well of cash for golf.

LIV is more USFL from the 80's. The NFL was vulnerable then and they came to an agreement. The rebranded USFL and XFL among others were not successful because the NFL became too big to disrupt.

Yes. My best guess is that years ago Greg Norman sold the Saudis on the idea that if golf teams are formed they will sell for the multi billion dollar prices commanded by NFL and pro Soccer teams.

 

[MacTourney]

Echico maybe try a VT football game if you're ever in Blacksburg on game day. Total blast from tailgating to one of the most iconic entrances in sports to a very fired up crowd on every down.

Yes sir! On my bucket list, what a place to be for a game opening. "This place is nuts"...

 

[tequila4kapp]

This is not really a LIV topic, but if the mods want to delete the thread I understand.
People who have played golf can appreciate the game for what it is , and enjoy watching it televised, but this is a relatively tiny market size compared the major spectator sports.
Kids, seniors, women, men all can get into watching NFL and have for decades because it's an aggressive, exciting sport. People love to see the throws and catches , the running and tackling, the back and forth scoring, touchdown celebrations, men wearing helmets etc...
It seems some Tour players and certainly the management of Tour (s) sometimes try to compare pro golf play to pro football or baseball or basketball or soccer etc... And I believe these perspectives are why the Tour (s) have tried to become higher profile , including attempts at identifying-labeling some individuals as "superstars" , and taking initiatives to pay these players more money. To me these efforts seem contrived.
Do you agree with me that golf is a great game , fun to play and watch, but not one that should expect to compete with the larger market major spectator sports franchises of the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and worldwide pro soccer leagues?

Funfdamentally, I agree with your assessment of the game. I disagree to an extent about how that translates to the way the game is marketed (ie the business of the game). I would say golf needs to closely follow the NBA model, which treats players are stars. When golf has a Tiger, Phil, Jack, Arnie, etc it can appeal to the casual fan. Golf has been blessed to have a person like that almost continuously up thought Jack. There was a decade gap between Jack and Tiger where there were great players (Faldo) that weren’t big enough to have that same appeal. I think we are in another period like that now.

 

[PuffChippy]

Soccer is the #1 spectator sport in the world. The amount of people across the globe that watch soccer is staggering and it's even more staggering considering that the US doesn't really watch. Soccer is globally the most watched sport. The Champions League final draws 4x the viewers as the Super Bowl.

The things done by the tour, taking in more money and bigger payouts etc. has been a reaction to LIV. Without those steps by the PGA Tour, it's KIA. LIV is upsetting the market in a really powerful way.

100% agree about LIV, and in some ways it sure feels like the PGAT is going to turn into LIV whether LIV survives or not. Considering the growing popularity of joggers, music on the course, bro influencers, and whatever that Good Good tournament thing was, maybe that's not a bad thing if that's golf's future.

I think the parallel to soccer is good too. Soccer is the most watched sport because in most of the world that's about all you have. Here is the US we have lots of great alternatives like the NFL/MLB/NHL/NBA so the demand for a sport like soccer remains minimal even after decades of promotion. Golf is already international though and there's no reason why some kid from Uruguay couldn't be the next Tiger. You find a way to tap into that global market that doesn't have a lot of alternatives and there's plenty of money to be made.

 

[MrDC]

The rebranded USFL and XFL failed because it was a solution for no problem, there was and is nothing really wrong with the NFL, and it's the same with golf.

 

[Cruskater]

One thing I love about the LIV broadcast is the ability to see more shots rather than players hitting 3 foot putts. I would love to know the % of shots on CBS, NBC, and Golf Channel that are putts. Yes show me the putt on 18 to win or the 35 footer that sneaks its way into the cup.

I don't think the Tour needs to do anything to compete with other major sports, but I do like the idea of finishing early or Saturday finishes in order to avoid competing with the AFC and NFC Championships and the Super Bowl. Good golf is good golf, but unknown names and players from the DP, KFT, etc. playing in PGA Tour events draw less eyeballs. What would the NFL be like if there never were super stars or players bounced from team to team without ever building a loyal following. Imagine the Chiefs without Mahomes, the Pats without Brady, the Niners without Montana, or the Ravens without Lewis, etc.

My own NCAA team, Holy Cross, could serve as a good example. As a faithful student with friends on the team, I went to every home game I could during my 4 years with the exception of when I had a hockey road trip. We had a stellar QB but no other "stars." The team lacked "stars" or impact players often in the years since my graduation. Six years ago, the school hired a dynamic coach who was a great recruiter and brought in some good prospects. Several of them turned out to be incredible players, and coupled with a social media revolution, made them stars and put the school on the FCS map. Back to golf, there are always going to be great golfers coming through the pipeline, but if they had the personality of a Cantlay and the social media game of a retired Champions Tour player, they likely won't garner the same following. Rickie, Jordan, JT, and Lexi are probably the best examples of players who built an unreal following and retained followers throughout the ups and downs of their careers.

Point is, I don't think many people would watch a Tour full of no name players even if it was good golf week in and week out.

 

[echico]

The rebranded USFL and XFL failed because it was a solution for no problem, there was and is nothing really wrong with the NFL, and it's the same with golf.

The current USFL and XFL failed because they couldn't get good players. The 80's USFL was purging some talent so the NFL wasn't as good of a product as it is today (sound familiar). There is a lot wrong with the PGAT and that is why LIV was able to pounce. The players are/were not happy with their piece of the pie. The NIL stuff is not allowing players control what they can use in social media. The way they treat caddies and families was sub standard. The players felt they were being forced to play way more than they wanted to recover from injuries and what not. If there was no problem with the PGAT they would not of changed their tune so quick on purses and elevated events, etc.

Overall golf is better when all the top players are playing against each other. I also don't think we need a different tour stop each week. We are a long way away from getting the perfect mix.

 

[Bosco...]

Yes sir! On my bucket list, what a place to be for a game opening. "This place is nuts"...

Not to derail, but it is nuts….like you can’t help yourself nuts. Registers on the Richter scale apparently. I want to go to a Wisconsin game!!

 

[Bosco...]

Back on track:

Are the majors just “not enough” for golf? I’m pretty much going to watch golf something on the weekend anyway. Elevated events haven’t changed a thing for viewers in my opinion.

 

[El Rayo X]

I can only think of 3 superstars that crossed over to the public eye. Arnold, Jack, and Tiger. After that the other golfers have golf fans and not sports fans. There is nothing wrong with any golf league going out and trying to create more fans. If that is team golf, or elevated events, or indoor sim golf then they are trying. The problem is the TV production doesn't really match what the general public wants to see.

A good look at that is what the UFC did when compared to boxing. The start of the UFC was an absolute joke. Once they got ownership in there that was able to get a solid plan and actually get results the thing took off. What did they do? They made fights that people wanted to see. The in person experience at a fight is the most fun I have had at a sporting event. I have been to a Ryder Cup, CFB National Championship, multiple NFL playoff games, multiple NHL playoff games, multiple NASCAR races, etc. A UFC event is the most fun I have ever had going to a sporting event. Boxing made boxing irrelevant and the UFC added the last shovel of dirt on it. There is space for innovation but as we can see in the multitude of LIV threads here, a lot of golf fans don't want change. If they keep fighting change golf won't grow to compete with anything.

I'd add Norman to that mix of crossover's. He was very well known and recognized outside of golf in his time.

 

[jjjgolf500]

If there was no problem with the PGAT they would not of changed their tune so quick on purses and elevated events, etc.

I don't get this one. The problem was PIF offended players 10x more money that the PGAT couldn't afford. The PGAT HAD to change.

Most other sports leagues are fine right now, but If PIF wanted to they could do the same thing and make them look like they had major issues. Like Jay said, you can't compete against unlimited $$.