Should Courses Enact a HC Check on Tees
DonJuan
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This. I'm not the slowest player by any means (and I'm philosophically opposed to fast play). There is a balance I suppose between tee time intervals and course profitability. There was a course that had 15 minute intervals and it was perfect. I'd finish in around 3.5 hours in a twosome. With 8-10 minute intervals I always feel rushed and play worse (even though there is a group in front of me and I can't really go anywhere anyway).
Here are some imperfect half-baked suggestions.
1. Make foursomes pay a little extra and space their intervals differently. (Yes I realize that not all foursomes are slow).
2. Have high handicap days. I play slower sometimes because it takes me more shots.
3. Have timers on carts and charge extra for being "late". Not sure how this would work logistically though.
4. Have Marshalls that are really strict on slow play. Eventually, the culture would change (or slow players would play elsewhere).
5. People stop playing speed golf and realize that it's recreation.
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courses should only put up signs sugesting capablle distances as tee designations, not HC. That idea is a huge turn off for many people. And as many would agree is nt preventing the pace problam anyway. Imo the whole notion stems from an elitist group of better players of which many may actualy be a pace problem themselves.
I do think tees should have some connection to ability (HC) but only some within reason but most all of it has to be based on capable distance. I would love to place all the people who insist that this is a huge pace issue to then be placed on a course with no one else except filled with just them and see just how long the round takes them and even do so from a more forward tee. I really beeive they would all be very surprised. Who would they blame then?
I do think tees should have some connection to ability (HC) but only some within reason but most all of it has to be based on capable distance. I would love to place all the people who insist that this is a huge pace issue to then be placed on a course with no one else except filled with just them and see just how long the round takes them and even do so from a more forward tee. I really beeive they would all be very surprised. Who would they blame then?
dduarte85
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I suppose your geographic location matters. As someone who plays in New England i have found that many courses have carry requirements, hazards directly off tee, etc. Thats why I was connecting tees to HC, a little based on distance but more on difficulty of the requirements. If someone is a 8 handicap the chances of them duffing a drive 20 yards on the ground is much less than a 20 playing back there. Again, generally speaking... I understand there are exceptions.
This 100%. It’s usually not the guys playing the wrong tees. I think there’s a lot of pace of play issues but it typically isn’t on the tee box.
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DG_1234
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I think the tee box pace of play issues are story telling, standing around with no one swinging, filling out scorecards etc...I notice this happens often and it absolutely hurts pace of play.
As for which tee box to play, if a longer hitter is on forward tee boxes and he insists on playing driver all day, often times he hits through the doglegs, misses the widest landing ares of a tee shot etc...Longer hitters playing forward tee boxes, if the player does not have the sense to play less than driver off most par 4 and par 5 tee boxes, is not a good combination.
oiler3535
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I’ve read somewhere about getting money back if beat course par. Never heard any results but it intrigues me.
However, I can’t disagree with number 5 enough. Playing fast if that’s what you want is awesome. I personally play better when I don’t have to endlessly wait, and walking my course record is 2:07 for a round without rushing. So long as not hitting into people or passively aggressively standing in your stance while they are playing, fast is better than slow. Saying that, if the group ahead isn’t keeping up with those ahead of them and not letting faster groups play through, they should be kicked off the course, thrown in a stockage for 3 days and have an ankle bracelet put on them that shocks them into a coma if they step foot on a course again. And no, being off your tee box before the group behind gets there isn’t keeping ahead of them. Sorry, rant over.
i'm going to give an example of why i don't like this idea. now, i realize anecdote does not make for a conclusive argument, but i do think many can relate to this example.
there's a guy i have played with a few times who is pretty new to the game, less than a couple years iirc. he has been bitten by the bug, and is working really hard. once he gains a little more consistency, he'll be low single digits in no time. when he connects with driver, he is LONG. and he hits his irons beautifully. but when things go wrong, they can go very wrong and blow up holes can kill an otherwise solid stretch of holes. if he walked onto a course with what i think his current cap is, they would not let him play the tees he SHOULD be playing, and driver would be taken out of his hands on most holes. f- that.
now, you can say, "don't like it? go play another course." and that's well and good, but if op is suggesting to implement that everywhere, i don't like that idea at all.
there's a guy i have played with a few times who is pretty new to the game, less than a couple years iirc. he has been bitten by the bug, and is working really hard. once he gains a little more consistency, he'll be low single digits in no time. when he connects with driver, he is LONG. and he hits his irons beautifully. but when things go wrong, they can go very wrong and blow up holes can kill an otherwise solid stretch of holes. if he walked onto a course with what i think his current cap is, they would not let him play the tees he SHOULD be playing, and driver would be taken out of his hands on most holes. f- that.
now, you can say, "don't like it? go play another course." and that's well and good, but if op is suggesting to implement that everywhere, i don't like that idea at all.
DonJuan
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That was somewhat tongue in cheek. Honestly, I don't care if people want to play 2 hour rounds, as long as they realize that's not normal. It's when the speed golfer wants me to speed up so he can finish in two hours that is a problem. I could play solo rounds at that speed without rushing. But if I'm with a buddy, then I want to enjoy the little bit of time we get away from work and family responsibilities.
I really dont think this would help anything. I also don't think handicap is necessarily tied to how far you can hit it. I've seen people playing forward tees take just as long, if not longer, than people playing further back.
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taht is exactly one the reasons Its rediculous. if I moved up from tees (not the tips) where I am now to the next set forward because of cap I could leave my driver in the car. I dont use it on allholes as it is. To think id be forced to take it out of my bag gets me angry. Its basically telling people who are long enough that they are not allowed to use it just because they may be erant with it at times. or may actually not be errant with it but suffer else where in thier game.
Unfortunately this type of thing seems to be going on more and more and its just wrong and is being done for the wrong reason.
My driver use to be a club I actually counted on and was pretty darn efficient with it. Oh of course i had my bad days and better days but overall I was prety consistant with it. Since my swing rebuild the past twp seasons i developed real issues with it and its been a battle being mostly miss and its been hurting my game the most. But im working hard at it. When i do hit it well I hinestly out drive most weekend worriors i might be playing with. Even with my driver issues i still dont use it on all holes because i do know what my distance with it is when hit well enough. I mean I dont use a 240 to 260 drive (and sometimes longer) when Im on a 375 yrd dog which plays about 340 and turns hard at the 200 mark. Im not going to use it just beause Im struggling with it and havnt been hitting it the 250-ish that I know i can. I still have to lay up so that i dont risk gojg through the leg into the woods. Force me to move more forward and ill have many holes like this and can leave not only my driver in the car but also my 3w and probably 5 as well.
You just cannot take the golf course away from soeone beacuse of HC. That logic is saying no one should even step foot ona course till they can master a par 3 course first and then an executive coourse secondly. And oonly then they should play the most forward tee till they master them. And then when they are finally "allowed" to move back a set they are too old to do so.
You know what funny? there are plenty courses that dont even touch the 7000 yrd mark and are mid or even low 6,000's at best and people often are playing a set in from the tips at those courses which may be near 6000 and still plenty of those have the same pace problems as the 7000 yarders. One such proivate place by me (private but open to the public) is a shorter course and yet known to be one the slowest pace courses near me. I ve heard this from very many peopls who play it due to inability to get out elsehwere. I play the course once per year in a charity outting. (nice course fwiw) And every year i here that its a really loooooong round whenever the regualr golf days are open there.
Actually one of my 5 munis is maxed out about mid 6's (550 shorter) than the others and of the 5 courses being the shortest one by a siginifcant enough margine the pace is exactly the same as it is at the others. And like at the other courses most people play a set in from tips which makes the average yardage where most all play from art 6100.
I mean of moving forward was any key at all to solving pace the two courses above would be the fastes pace courses around me. Yet the muni I mentioned is exactly the same time as the other munis and the other course is known as one the slowest where 5 hr rounds are a norm vs our average 420 to 430 rounds at our much longer munis.
So just where is any of this proof that forcong tees forward has solved pace issues anywhere which so very many people sill feel is the biggest reason for it. Too many peple look at groups directly in fron of them and even if its not slow they still remark negatively anytime they see someone play a poor tee game and one the first things out of thier mouths is to imply......"they shouldnt be playing those tees and its a pace killer".
Unfortunately this type of thing seems to be going on more and more and its just wrong and is being done for the wrong reason.
My driver use to be a club I actually counted on and was pretty darn efficient with it. Oh of course i had my bad days and better days but overall I was prety consistant with it. Since my swing rebuild the past twp seasons i developed real issues with it and its been a battle being mostly miss and its been hurting my game the most. But im working hard at it. When i do hit it well I hinestly out drive most weekend worriors i might be playing with. Even with my driver issues i still dont use it on all holes because i do know what my distance with it is when hit well enough. I mean I dont use a 240 to 260 drive (and sometimes longer) when Im on a 375 yrd dog which plays about 340 and turns hard at the 200 mark. Im not going to use it just beause Im struggling with it and havnt been hitting it the 250-ish that I know i can. I still have to lay up so that i dont risk gojg through the leg into the woods. Force me to move more forward and ill have many holes like this and can leave not only my driver in the car but also my 3w and probably 5 as well.
You just cannot take the golf course away from soeone beacuse of HC. That logic is saying no one should even step foot ona course till they can master a par 3 course first and then an executive coourse secondly. And oonly then they should play the most forward tee till they master them. And then when they are finally "allowed" to move back a set they are too old to do so.
You know what funny? there are plenty courses that dont even touch the 7000 yrd mark and are mid or even low 6,000's at best and people often are playing a set in from the tips at those courses which may be near 6000 and still plenty of those have the same pace problems as the 7000 yarders. One such proivate place by me (private but open to the public) is a shorter course and yet known to be one the slowest pace courses near me. I ve heard this from very many peopls who play it due to inability to get out elsehwere. I play the course once per year in a charity outting. (nice course fwiw) And every year i here that its a really loooooong round whenever the regualr golf days are open there.
Actually one of my 5 munis is maxed out about mid 6's (550 shorter) than the others and of the 5 courses being the shortest one by a siginifcant enough margine the pace is exactly the same as it is at the others. And like at the other courses most people play a set in from tips which makes the average yardage where most all play from art 6100.
I mean of moving forward was any key at all to solving pace the two courses above would be the fastes pace courses around me. Yet the muni I mentioned is exactly the same time as the other munis and the other course is known as one the slowest where 5 hr rounds are a norm vs our average 420 to 430 rounds at our much longer munis.
So just where is any of this proof that forcong tees forward has solved pace issues anywhere which so very many people sill feel is the biggest reason for it. Too many peple look at groups directly in fron of them and even if its not slow they still remark negatively anytime they see someone play a poor tee game and one the first things out of thier mouths is to imply......"they shouldnt be playing those tees and its a pace killer".
rollin
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thank you. And ive also seen plenty playing tips who are long enough to do so also cause the slowest rounds of golf.
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I agree, but driver distance is not directly proportionate to handicap. Just because someone is short off the tee doesn't mean they don't have a low handicap and just because they have a low handicap doesn't mean they aren't long enough off the tee to keep up on a longer course.
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one thing for certain is that total yardage can often be deceiving. Its not at al always telling. I mean all it takes is a couple/few oddball holes to throw off total yardage. Then could also be an extra or minus a par3 or par5. Then there is doglegs, elevations, prevailing einds, etc,etc,...a long course can actually play alot shorter and a shorter course can play darn long for any those reasons.
Two courses similar in yardage I am familiar with. One has almost all doglegs while the other mostly straight holes. The one with the legs plays a lot shorter as those corners can take huge chunks of yardage from a hole. esoecially when the tee game is working well enough.
Two courses similar in yardage I am familiar with. One has almost all doglegs while the other mostly straight holes. The one with the legs plays a lot shorter as those corners can take huge chunks of yardage from a hole. esoecially when the tee game is working well enough.
White lightning
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So do they have to activate a short game scoring rating. If you can't chip or put you have to pick up and move on to speed play. Man it would suck if you can bomb it 320 off the tips and follow it with 240 off the fairway to get cut off with a crappy short game and be asked to pick up and move on because your chip and three put is holding up the 70 yr olds who can actually play the game of golf. Man what a kick in the man balls!!!
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MattStub
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I do agree with this sentiment. As a higher HC, I would probably steer clear of a lot of courses forcing this many carries. My home course has 4 holes with difficult carries, 3 of which come into play on approach shots. And honestly these holes are where I pick up most of my blow ups, so if there were a bunch off the tee it would be concerning to play back in that situation (if i typically played the tips)
I will say it took a handful of rounds of me having to say I wasn't going to play the tips when the rest of my group wanted to play before they realized we didn't all have to play the same tee just because we were playing together. They are all much more consistent golfers than I am, so it just didn't make sense. I also don't think any of them should waste their time back there, but to each their own.
dduarte85
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Land is a serious commodity here so most courses aren't modern in the sense where tee box position changes holes. In most cases, at least for me, its usually a one club difference. Also too, scorecards are notoriously off around here. Even in the THP event we played this weekend at Cyprian Keys, the scorecard read a 500 yard difference between white and blue and yet all day the whites were almost neck and neck the whole day so if you actually measured the difference it was significantly closer. It's rare to see the blue (or black) tees at the actual tips of tee boxes.
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Funny, isn't it?
dduarte85
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I still believe its all relative to your courses and your area... if I travel and play golf then the tee boxes are significantly different and spread but that's because there's more land in Texas than Massachusetts.
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So only 1% of golfers struggle at the short game. I'm a high handicap player and usually give most of my strokes up close to the greens. I was just looking at slow play from a different angle. Generally I think a lot of the time lost on the course happens on or around the greens. Just my opinion. I never play from the tips knowing that at my level I'm at that level currently. The difference between at person. Who shoots in the 90's than one in the 70's is around 1.3 strokes per hole. Yes the booming drive and approach shot is impressive, and I strive to achive that but most strokes are lost with a poor chip or chips leading up to the dreaded 3 put.
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oiler3535
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I agree entirely. Play how you want to have fun. But don’t hold up faster groups (yes, even singles count here, it’s right in the rules). I do have concerns about slow play, but back to the OP I don’t think playing the wrong tee box is the main issue. I would say that’s not playing ready golf, and most particularly taking too long putting. I’ve timed many many groups who take almost 10 minutes once all 4 on the green.
I think the point was that high handicap golfers who routinely cover 560 yards in two shots are extremely rare... I think it makes more sense to base this discussion on what works for the majority of people playing a course on a given day. That said, even a 90s shooter who drives it 320 would benefit from moving up - the short game wouldn't look so bad if you're consistently chipping for eagle.