Sliding during the downswing

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ttucliffhanger

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Is that what was causing the shanks?
Yes. After watching videos and all that, I'm thinking it boils down to my takeaway. Eric Corgano made a great point in one of his videos. If you shallow out in your backswing, your body is going to compensate do the opposite on the downswing, and same for if you go steeper on the backswing, you will shallow on the downswing, but I do have a call with @TrueMotionMatt next week about their online academy. Just have to set a time to discuss everything.
 

GolfLivesMatter

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Is "comfortable" a criteria for correct? Especially if we consider the introduction of a new mechanical feeling?
Lee Trevino was told he'd never make it on tour "with that swing" by the so-called experts. There are far too many examples of unique swings that cannot be measured.
 

razaar

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No golden rule according to Mike Adams , Terry Rowles and Ed Tischler who say 1/3 of golfers are each Gliders/Spinners/Launchers.
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"If your wingspan is greater than your height, score a point for gliding. Having long arms means you don’t have to bend over as much at address. And since a taller stance creates a flatter swing, you’re forced to lift your arms on the backswing to create some angle to the ball. The only way to slot the club on the downswing from this upright arm position is to glide toward the target."

"If your forearm is longer than your upper arm, score a point for gliding. A longer forearm tends to elevate the club to a more upright position at the top, requiring glide to lower and slot it coming down."

If your right hand moves under your left, you’re what we call an “under” golfer. Score a point for gliding. You need a big shift toward the target at the beginning of the downswing to slot the club from this “under” position.

If you shift toward your rear leg as you rotate, you’re what we call a “rear-poster.” Score a point for gliding.A glider needs horizontal force on the downswing to move weight from his back foot to his front; otherwise, the shot may be caught thin.

Will await his book and the proof that he has gathered after measuring/testing hundreds of PGA/LPGA tour golfers that substantiate these claims . If the data shows a high degree of correlation between body measurements and their swing techniques , then we might have a blueprint for golf instruction based on the individual's body measurements, strength and flexibility.

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With regards keeping centered, if you look at the double-pendulum model used by Theodore Jorgensen (see image below) he found that gliding the 'fixed pivot' laterally increased clubhead speed by 9%. So maybe certain golfers who are natural 'Gliders' sense that they can create more clubhead speed and shift laterally during their downswing.


View attachment 9008452
My guess is your hobby is researching all this stuff and sharing. I would be more interested in reading what works for you.
 

WILDTHING

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My guess is your hobby is researching all this stuff and sharing. I would be more interested in reading what works for you.
My swing is just like this SC demonstration below where I 'feel' like I'm bobbing up and down like a yo-yo :). I haven't analysed it in any detail although I have a notion of the physics involved because I get greater distances than if I performed just a pure rotary type swing technique . Even if I did analyse and explained it in full detail I doubt it would benefit any other forum members because its unique to me. However , I do feel that external focus cues are a fantastic way to learn and retain motor skills and its something every golfer might find useful (if they stuck at it for several months).

 

ttucliffhanger

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Looking forward to my call with @TrueMotionMatt on Monday about the online academy!
 

razaar

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My swing is just like this SC demonstration below where I 'feel' like I'm bobbing up and down like a yo-yo :). I haven't analysed it in any detail although I have a notion of the physics involved because I get greater distances than if I performed just a pure rotary type swing technique . Even if I did analyse and explained it in full detail I doubt it would benefit any other forum members because its unique to me. However , I do feel that external focus cues are a fantastic way to learn and retain motor skills and its something every golfer might find useful (if they stuck at it for several months).

SC is making a fortune talking BS. He would do well in politics.
The real truth about the up and down pelvic action lies in how the leg ball joint moves within the hip socket as the joint moves from adduction to abduction, external rotation to internal rotation and vice versa.
Adduction - the ball is high in the socket.
Abduction - the ball is low in the socket.
External rotation - the ball is forward in the socket.
Internal rotation - the ball is back in the socket.
Easy to check by placing a hand on the socket and going through the movements.
Then there is the myofascia (muscles and facia) attached to the joints and their spatial relationships to other myofascia joints. Glutes and hamstrings, hip flexors and opposite lat are examples of spatial relationships.
The old teachers (Abe Mitchell and Bobby Jones) were big on anchoring the swing hub with the lower body moving freely below it. One obvious feature of elite golf swings is how the swing hub remains fixed in space throughout the swing.
Kelvin Miyahira's articles "What is a hip turn, Parts 1,2 & 3" cover this in great depth.
 
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McLovin

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GolfLivesMatter

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My swing is just like this SC demonstration below where I 'feel' like I'm bobbing up and down like a yo-yo :). I haven't analysed it in any detail although I have a notion of the physics involved because I get greater distances than if I performed just a pure rotary type swing technique . Even if I did analyse and explained it in full detail I doubt it would benefit any other forum members because its unique to me. However , I do feel that external focus cues are a fantastic way to learn and retain motor skills and its something every golfer might find useful (if they stuck at it for several months).

There's a guy at my club who does this type of bobbing swing. I always wondered where he might have learned the movement. He has a very non-rotational and steep swing. His club comes up just to the left of his forehead on the follow-through. It's kinda like the difference between a straight-on field goal kicker from the 1960's vs. the modern rotational soccer-style kickers. If it works why not?
 

WILDTHING

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There's a guy at my club who does this type of bobbing swing. I always wondered where he might have learned the movement. He has a very non-rotational and steep swing. His club comes up just to the left of his forehead on the follow-through. It's kinda like the difference between a straight-on field goal kicker from the 1960's vs. the modern rotational soccer-style kickers. If it works why not?
It feels as if I'm bobbing down a lot but when I look at a mirror it's only about 2 -3 inches and yes, it works for me and I don't feel as much strain on my back compared to a pure rotary type swing.


 
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blugold

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Lee Trevino was told he'd never make it on tour "with that swing" by the so-called experts. There are far too many examples of unique swings that cannot be measured.
Yup, but I don't know what that has to do with dealing with uncomfortableness associated with learning new swing mechanics. But it's still a nice story that highlights that the best are often great in spite of their technique.
 

GolfLivesMatter

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Yup, but I don't know what that has to do with dealing with uncomfortableness associated with learning new swing mechanics. But it's still a nice story that highlights that the best are often great in spite of their technique.
If I don't feel uncomfortable then I'm doing the same old swing. That's why IMO people take lessons, see some improvement, then they revert back to their comfort zone which is what they wanted to change in the first place. Often times instructional movements are over-exaggerated because it helps (at least me) to counterbalance the wrong movements.

For example, I want to be stacked over the ball at the top. During practice, I would take the club to the top and believe (feel) I'm stacked. Then when I looked in a mirror I wasn't close to being stacked. Then I went back to my address position and took the club to the top, but this time I exaggerated (in my mind it's an exaggeration) so much that I felt tilted to the left at the top. But upon checking in the mirror I was perfectly stacked over the ball. The issue was I was used to drifting right so my brain was used to one movement and anything contrary felt uncomfortably tilted to the left. Currently, the uncomfortable feeling is any drift to my trail foot, but it's also taken 4 months or so to reverse the feel.
 

ttucliffhanger

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Looking forward to my call with @TrueMotionMatt on Monday about the online academy!
So update on this. After doing some research I have decided to go with doing in person lessons. Going to speak with an instructor tomorrow at the local Jack Nicklaus course I play a lot. I truly feel I can learn so much more and understand it better with have an instructor one on one. Once I start lessons in July I will post a thread for my journey.
 

ttucliffhanger

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Well, just got off the phone with the instructor at the Jack Nicklaus course near me, where a buddy of mine is taking lessons. Lessons are set to start first week of July once my daughters schedule isn't crazy lol. That being said, getting a pretty solid deal and the best part about it is the guy runs a LPGA clinic for ages 7-17 every Saturday and it's $15 for the hour. My daughter is going to be stoked!!!
 

ttucliffhanger

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Well, I ended up getting a free lesson from a close friend of mine who is a pageant dad. My daughter and his daughter had their first national pageant this past weekend and he had is clubs. We had a little bit of down time, so he said, lets go to the range and get you fixed or at least moving forward. Either way, we went over a wrist action move at the top of my swing (basically pointing my watch face at the ground at the top and holding during the downswing) and worked on a steeper takeaway/backswing and when paired, I was striping irons the best I had ever hit them. Straight as an arrow to a little draw and he is playing Ping Blueprints. I didn't want to go to the range initially because I didn't have my clubs, but he wanted to help so I didn't want to turn it down. That being said, I still have a lot of practice to get this engrained and make it muscle memory, but I was very pleased with the results. His irons are way less forgiving and he had heavier shafts so I'm interested to see the results once I use my clubs. It was kind of nuts really because I was hitting blades and hitting them straight. For example, I hit his 9 iron and was hitting it 145 consistently, dropping everything within a 3' circle and not even swinging hard at all. It was very smooth. It was definitely nice to see that kind of distance with a smooth, less exerting swing. I didn't feel like I had to muscle the swing to hit a pure shot that went a good distance. At the end of the session, we started to work on driver and I will say the wrist movement at the top of the swing is harder with a longer club, so I am just going to have to get some range time to work at this. He told me to go to the range with the driver or 3 wood and just do 70-80 yard punch shots with the wrist action movement and a little stronger grip until I start seeing small hooks to the left with the punch shot and then start increasing the distance and amount of swing to a 3/4 and once I see the same results, move to a full swing and it should feel methodic and I should square the club face. Essentially this should train my body to shallow on the downswing and square the club face. I didn't plan on picking up a club for the entire month of June due to schedule, but it's going to workout that I will get to go to the range in about a week and a half for both Friday and Saturday evenings. Gotta pick up the irons this evening after having some tweaks done to them. He did video one of my swings about a quarter of the way through the session and I already saw a huge difference from my OTT swing. It was almost neutral comparted to my old OTT swing if that makes any sense and I know if I keep at this, it will shallow on the downswing. It's not all the way where it needs to be, but it's a big start in the right direction. Just gotta get the top of the bag fixed, which will happen with this move. It's kind of crazy what an hour on the range with someone who knows what they are doing and helping you physically see and move, the results are pretty awesome!
 

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OK, this may sound dumb, but do you wear your watch on your right wrist or left? I wear mine on my left, and was thinking about it pointing to the ground, and was completely baffled on how this was possible. Now I think about it more, I'm pretty sure I figured it out. LOL.
 

ttucliffhanger

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OK, this may sound dumb, but do you wear your watch on your right wrist or left? I wear mine on my left, and was thinking about it pointing to the ground, and was completely baffled on how this was possible. Now I think about it more, I'm pretty sure I figured it out. LOL.
I wear it on my left wrist. This is a little over emphasis as well. I don't think you can physically hold it pointed to the ground the entire time, but to make your wrist feel like you are doing it and when you reach impact the watch face will be pointed at your target. Without doing this movement, my watch face is pointed to the right and the club face was open.
 

ttucliffhanger

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OK, this may sound dumb, but do you wear your watch on your right wrist or left? I wear mine on my left, and was thinking about it pointing to the ground, and was completely baffled on how this was possible. Now I think about it more, I'm pretty sure I figured it out. LOL.
I should elaborate on it as well. After hitting about 10 shots doing this movement with my wrists...when I didn't do it or let my wrists fall back to the way they were too soon, I could tell immediately on the downswing.
 

Hamfist

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I wear it on my left wrist. This is a little over emphasis as well. I don't think you can physically hold it pointed to the ground the entire time, but to make your wrist feel like you are doing it and when you reach impact the watch face will be pointed at your target. Without doing this movement, my watch face is pointed to the right and the club face was open.
Interesting. I'll have to mime this at home tonight.
 

ttucliffhanger

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Interesting. I'll have to mime this at home tonight.
It's going to feel extremely weird when you do it at first and it still feels weird now, but it feels even weirder not doing it now. To picture it, think of how DJ's wrists look at the top of his swing.
 

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I don't think what you are describing can be properly called "sliding". A proper golf swing needs to have you slide your hip toward the target before rotating. Shoving your hips at the ball is called, I believe, early extension. This is standing up before reaching impact. A move that should only happen after the ball is well away, and you're turning to watch it's flight. It's caused by an inability to keep a proper golf posture through impact, particularly spine angle.
 

Buckeyegolfnut

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I don't know how your eyes work!
 

Colt

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GHIN: ????
Not true, there is not a slide towards the target in a powerful and accurate golf swing. The tail bone (sacrum) should go AWAY from Target, which means you don't slide. Look at DJ, Bubba, early 2000's Tiger, Arnie, Hogan, Snead, Early Jack...no slide.

It's one of the biggest misconceptions that lots of uneducated instructors, some of them now very famous, perpetuated for too long and people still talk about. They are trying to "simplify" the golf swing, which only confuses people more.

While sliding is one way to hit a golf ball, it's just plain wrong if you want to hit with power and accuracy. A slide causes you to stop rotating, and flip your hands at the ball to "release" the club.
Early Hogan definitely had a slide. Late Hogan started stacking on his left foot in his backswing. Effectively building his downswing slide into his backswing.
The others. You’re right.
I don’t slide. It’s bad for my swing. But Hogan definitely had a slide at one point.
 

ttucliffhanger

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razaar

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I don't know how your eyes work!
The eyes can decieve us when looking at a golf swing. A rotational swing during transition from backswing to downswing has both hips abducting and externally rotating. If these movements are asymmetrical it can give the spectator the impression that the left hip Is doing something different.
 

Colt

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Hogan didn’t stack as in stack and tilt. As @razaar mentioned in a rotational swing both legs get external and the left hip stays within the left ankle and he keeps rotating. It’s clear as day
View attachment 9012551
Looking back at what I said, I don’t see any mention of a stack and tilt swing. What I mentioned was him stacking up on his left side in his backswing in his later years. This one small detail of his backswing doesn’t make it a stack and tilt and I never claimed such. He just put himself on his left side in his backswing to get his hips rotated quicker in the downswing. It took away the need to slide when he transferred his weight before rotation like he did when he was younger. You can slide and stay within your stance. The two concepts aren’t mutually exclusive.
 

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