So which brand (if any) has the new club out to truly challange the succes of Epic?

[rollin]

I appreciate that you said "IMO" instead of just throwing that out there like a blanket. That attitude is lost in many ways nowadays, and makes conversations much easier.

What I think made Epic stand out beyond most others, was the jailbreak tech. This is a truly awesome type of advancement for a driver because it's visible tech (some of it anyways) and it's not like much that we've seen before. I think about the latest from driver and it's always like "yeah, seen that already" in different ways. To make something unique and different gave them a huge advantage.

As for the performance, I think that falls on the individual (and I do think Epic was positive in a huge percentage). What I noticed at my home course at the end of the year was a bit of trepidation from some of those who made the switch. Struggling with a two way miss (same here, honestly), meanwhile knowing that performance-wise it is still at the top of the list in ball speed. With that, I'll support the premise that it 'wow'ed people, but I don't think it is earth shattering compared to competitors. A leg up with jailbreak? Yeah maybe, but neutrality is found in many ways.

I don't underestimate the value of marketing. It sells turds and holds back gems. We've seen it on this site for all kinds of companies and I suspect it won't stop any time soon. What I think other companies need now, is traction. Somehow they need to find a way to catch up with Callaway's relatability with the consumer.

good post, I would only add that "earth shattering" in golf nowadays imo only has to be minimal to qualify. I mean in golf (namely drivers nowadays) the tech is right on the conforming regulations that even a small fraction of real world gain over others is very substantial. no?... Especially when we consider hype.. Its not often and even rare when its noted by enough people that a driver has indeed actually done something to live up to even just a percentage of its hype in the real world.

What I mean is that if we listen to hype (especially with drivers) we'd all be hitting 330 yrds and 75% fairways on a regular basis for the past decade already. So when we consider ball speed and distance and even now forgiveness, the hype has been so far exaggerated for so long that we now take it as "the boy who cried wolf". So when something does actually deliver something significantly measurable in the real world by more than enough people its going to be considered a significant achievement. Thats why I say "new standard".

Its never for everyone and nothing out there ever works for everyone. But ball speed across the face of epic does have a proven track record for very many people. I think its so many that this in itself has contributed a ton to its success aside from any marketing. Too many fitters and players scattered all over seem to have verified and shared this to be the case. So the hype this time around is not just marketing hype but also imo even more was created on its own via real world word of mouth (based on performance) from very many indeed. Ive mentioned earlier that even if we remove the usual skewed, flawed, and outright meaningless reviews (as we would do with any club) there is still just too much positive feedback results to be found and that real world info has made its way around on its own merit.

people may not agree with this and because it hasnt worked for many they will feel its an outright wrong analogy. But I would disagree just by the sheer numbers of positive results that have been shared about real world performance in the amateur world. And that its too many to dismiss as just being yet another hyped up club that worked for some while not for others. So I think the other makers have to catch up to what I feel can be thought of as a new standard. Hence part of why I began the thread.

 

[Nikhil]

The Callaway campaigns are going to be future business school examples of social media marketing.
Like it or not but a social media campaign has to be part and parcel of getting your product out there.
The irony of it all is that Harry Arnett is formerly from TM - talk about missing out on a talent.

My social media (incl Youtube) feeds has exploded with Rogue related material - that has to take some effort.
The "reviewers" are from diverse locales and solid work has been put in to engage new faces this time.

TM is obviously the natural challenger to Callaway's dominance so far.
But to answer the OP's question, IMO product wise Ping has the chops to challenge Callaway with the right mix.
They have a legit golf legacy of genuinely good products that compare well with anyone out there.

 

[DB86]

I haven't looked at the numbers, I was just surprised it was left off. My gut says like the others all 3 are pretty close in that arena too.
I think the major difference between the brands are the amount of voices and engagement.

I like that some companies have done complete 180s in this area, and I have spoken to every top 10 brand about this very topic in the last 14 days. Its pretty wild how different the methods and thinking are, but that is what makes it great. Everybody has different wants.

Good leaders react to change, great leaders anticipate change and adjust accordingly.

I think what we are seeing in the Golf industry is a prime example of this.

 

[rollin]

Im not sure I understand (and im curious) why it cant just be that Callaway made a great club here that gets credit for much of its own success instead of crediting Callaway marketing. What I mean is...a club that has spoken for itself and created a buzz via a whole heck of a lot of positive (as for gains) in real world feed back all on its own. As just one small example just look at our epic review thread on THP. That kind of feedback is wide spread. I mean I get the affects of good marketing but was there some kind of marketing "genius" done so overwhelmingly perfect here and is the only thing that produced the success of the club? I just think they made a great club which has picked up ball speed, forgiveness and distance for so many according the (reported) wide spread feedback. I don't think the other makers necessarily failed at marketing so much worse than Callaway but was just that their clubs (according to the feedback) didn't match or out do what too many have seen/felt the epic do for them. So imo the only way to meet or overcome is for them to produce the club to do it and one which would also on its own merit match or out perform for very many people the same way epic has done. I just don't feel this is all attributed to marketing here , at least not in this case. Reason being is because I believe the club also sold itself via the results people saw and report. If I am another maker I don't think Im asking myself what we did so wrong marketing wise, but instead getting on my R&D team to design the next challenger that will produce the same feedback (or more) that epic did. And then of course still market it the best way possible.

 

[Jman]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Can't it be a great design AND great marketing?

 

[DB86]

So which brand (if any) has the new club out to truly challange the succes of Epic?

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

 

[Jman]

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

I don't believe so personally.

But, to me marketing has many different masks and incarnations.

 

[ddec]

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

Man it would have be a freaking great club that would hit during a "down" year at this point. Cobra is a prime example, they have had some great clubs in recent years, but they just don't sell.

 

[DB86]

I don't believe so personally.

But, to me marketing has many different masks and incarnations.

I agree. I think they go hand in hand in regards to what we are talking about.

 

[Nikhil]

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

No way given the way we all operate now. Social media helps us reinforce our decisions.
Reviews, Youtube reviews by "everyday golfers", interactions with staff etc.

 

[rollin]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Can't it be a great design AND great marketing?

It doesn't at all have to be just one and can certainly be both. But I think the gist of most opinions in the thread are marketing based and seem to be implying is what sold epic so well and that the others need to do a better job with marketing. Yet I feel in this case, the club has sold itself so well over other makers because of what has been a ton (much more than usual) of positive real world results and feedback that's been shared by so many. I don't think its the marketing of another brand that will over take this but needs to be the club they design which must then result in similar or even greater feedback and results. I think that whole thing played a much greater role in the epics (and callaways) success than the marketing did. I don't think the others were out marketed so much as I think simply they were out designed this time around. That's why I say what I have. And I know many may not agree.

 

[rollin]

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

No way given the way we all operate now. Social media helps us reinforce our decisions.
Reviews, Youtube reviews by "everyday golfers", interactions with staff etc.

Great marketing imo is needed of course. But I do think social media that Nikhil brings up allows a great product to succeed and even flourish in spite of or in addition to how well it was marketed by simply being a product that stood out on its own merit. And I honestly feel callaway in large part did (or reaped the rewards of) just exactly that with epic because its was actually that good for many. Starts with good marketing of course but then product sometimes can run on there own once out there and I think is what happend.
Had it not been marketed quite as well to start of with, would it have sold as well? I guess we wouldn't know for sure but Id say probably not quite as well. So I do get importance of what marketing does. But was the club so far out marketed over others? or did its peformance market itself to that level? I feel the later truly aided the former a bit more than usual this time around.

 

[mikeg_74]

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

No way. You can have the best club, but if you don't have anyone to tell the story, get through the technical speak so the average golfer will understand the club benefits, you won't move the needle in terms of revenue.

One example I think of is Cobra. If the Callaway marketing team had been in charge of the recent driver releases, I fully believe they would have sold more. There is no arguing the R&D/Tech in the latest Cobra drivers, yet they didn't sell like they should have.

 

[JB]

Honest question here...Is it possible in the Golf industry to have a truly great club be successful without great marketing?

Absolutely. Some may disagree, but the perfect example of this is the Cobra One Length irons. They were able to pick up marketshare and their marketing was not nearly as prevalent as some of the larger brands.
Another example would be Snell Golf balls. Marketshare does not measure online sales, but the numbers we have seen thrown around and their growth is undeniable. Their marketing is not all that large in any arena.

But the good news is that they are not mutually exclusive. Good marketing should become easier with great products.

 

[JB]

Another example is Scotty Cameron. People say tour use doesn't matter, but Scotty Cameron does virtually no advertising at all, outside of tour use, and they sell plenty of putters.

 

[PhillyV]

Another example is Scotty Cameron. People say tour use doesn't matter, but Scotty Cameron does virtually no advertising at all, outside of tour use, and they sell plenty of putters.

And to add to that, I think the Circle T aspect adds to it somehow. Most of what Scotty has posted on his instagram is all Circle T stuff

 

[DB86]

Another example is Scotty Cameron. People say tour use doesn't matter, but Scotty Cameron does virtually no advertising at all, outside of tour use, and they sell plenty of putters.

Good point here. I’ve even had non golfers ask me things about Scotty Cameron putters.

 

[oiler3535]

You played the tiger card

Absolutely. He IS the needle. If he wins big while driving great, it’ll make a huge difference.

 

[rollin]

I wonder how Callaways new Rouge driver will do vs the epic and/or if that is actually the club that out does epic not only in sales but in performance.

Honestly I would have thought that callaway would have kept riding the epic success wave for another year or at least another half a year. Was it not still selling that well and leading the way?

Putting the rouge out now (even though a new year) imo sort of risky considering epic still strong. It might also diminish the success of the epic in that they now claim they enhanced the jail break tech even more leading to even more ball speed and even more forgiveness. Im sure there will be a ton of comparisons between the epic and the rouge and if that feedback verse the epic is as overwhelming as the epic was when versing other clubs they of course will have another great wave to ride. But if the feedback shows little to nothing real against the epic then imo the release could be a mistake at this time.

Reason being imo is because if the rouge doesn't outperform epic it does two things. It firstly puts the epic in an older category right off the bat while it was otherwise still a top seller and honestly probably still would have been for another half year at least. This also would bring back the ...."well its just mostly meaningless hype now" once again in the minds of consumers. Which is something as Ive been implying many people felt was not at all the case with epic.

So imo this is risky. I would have let epic continue to ride on as being "the driver to beat" (so to say). Unless I knew for 100% certain the rouge is without a doubt that much better and great enough to cause the same craze over epic as epic did to others. If its not every bit of all that then it imo not only diminishes the ambiance of epic but also ends being just another hyped up club with no real world gains vs th last model or other brand models and that imo would be worse than if they just continued to let epic ride high through 2018 for as long as it could.

Interesting to see if rouge will sit on the epic thrown and help callaway even more than epic or backfire and bring them back down to normalcy once again. And fwiw with the curiosity concerning this I could probably bring this same post over the rouge thread too.

 

[mikeg_74]

So which brand (if any) has the new club out to truly challange the succes of Epic?

I’m sure Callaway did their homework and market analysis before Rogue was introduced. One thing people can’t forget is that this isn’t replacing the Epic line so it’s not trying to “beat” Epic. IMO they are offering another option for those that didn’t get all the benefits Epic provides (More MOI)

 

[DB86]

So which brand (if any) has the new club out to truly challange the succes of Epic?

Maybe I am speaking only for myself here, but I think it’s important to note that about 90% of this thread has been towards Callaway. That says something in itself in regard to their products and marketing IMO.

 

[rollin]

Maybe I am speaking only for myself here, but I think it’s important to note that about 90% of this thread has been towards Callaway. That says something in itself in regard to their products and marketing IMO.

Yea but f yout hink about it, the thread was created with a callaway product in mind and which wuld out do them. So naturally Callaway would be the gist of the discussion. But yes, this is a result of the success theve had

 

[rollin]

I’m sure Callaway did their homework and market analysis before Rogue was introduced. One thing people can’t forget is that this isn’t replacing the Epic line so it’s not trying to “beat” Epic. IMO they are offering another option for those that didn’t get all the benefits Epic provides (More MOI)

well,....yes and no.
I feel that is said because they still know that epic still is and will still sell. I mean generally they didn't make a totally different product but actually claim they improved on the tech in epic. Imprved on the jail break tech, improved the face for greater ball speed and dispersion positives. So the implied marketing that it isn't a replacement but only an alterative imo is really just an illusion. Which is what marketing is suppose to create.

If rouge is no better than epic they can still keep face by suggesting is was never meat to replace it but only offer a different option. If roug is better than epic then they win at everything. But when you take the tech of a club and imply you now have improved on that same tech with the new club, that imo is really a replacement and not an alternative regardless what the marketing says.

 

[mikeg_74]

well,....yes and no.
I feel that is said because they still know that epic still is and will still sell. I mean generally they didn't make a totally different product but actually claim they improved on the tech in epic. Imprved on the jail break tech, improved the face for greater ball speed and dispersion positives. So the implied marketing that it isn't a replacement but only an alterative imo is really just an illusion. Which is what marketing is suppose to create.

If rouge is no better than epic they can still keep face by suggesting is was never meat to replace it but only offer a different option. If roug is better than epic then they win at everything. But when you take the tech of a club and imply you now have improved on that same tech with the new club, that imo is really a replacement and not an alternative regardless what the marketing says.

There really is no "yes and no". Look at the R&D and technical specs of Rogue and you will see this is a different driver than Epic. They took Epic and improved on the forgiveness and increased MOI. That is a "totally different product".

IMO there is no implied marketing, this is marketing on a new product that isn't released to replace Epic.

 

[rallo]

well,....yes and no.
I feel that is said because they still know that epic still is and will still sell. I mean generally they didn't make a totally different product but actually claim they improved on the tech in epic. Imprved on the jail break tech, improved the face for greater ball speed and dispersion positives. So the implied marketing that it isn't a replacement but only an alterative imo is really just an illusion. Which is what marketing is suppose to create.

If rouge is no better than epic they can still keep face by suggesting is was never meat to replace it but only offer a different option. If roug is better than epic then they win at everything. But when you take the tech of a club and imply you now have improved on that same tech with the new club, that imo is really a replacement and not an alternative regardless what the marketing says.

I agree with MikeG, I think the fact that they are offering a "Draw" driver that doesn't sacrifice MOI (Epic sliding weight did when set to draw) is evidence that they were looking at ways to improve on the tech in place rather than to replace it from a completely different approach. I realize it is all in how you look at it, but it seems as if they are trying to improve the wheel rather than reinvent it.