NEWS The USGA Distance Insights Project

[Golf Ghost]

All of that.

I am 100% in the camp of letting the pros eat these courses alive. Sure, it's going to hurt Jack's feelings that people start to think that the tour is better now and players are better now, than they were in the 60s and 70s. But who cares. Boomer needs to go to pasture. I know that sounds harsh, but everybody needs to stop asking an 80 year old man how to make the game better for 20 and 30 somethings who are playing it right now.

What's funny is that for Jack, majority of his records are save because of the deep fields, chances are no one will win or make cuts at the level that he did. So, I'm really confused on why he's so concern about the "distance". I don't buy it for one second that his concern is only about course design.

 

[isuckatgolf]

What's funny is that for Jack, majority of his records are save because of the deep fields, chances are no one will win or make cuts at the level that he did. So, I'm really confused on why he's so concern about the "distance". I don't buy it for one second that his concern is only about course design.

I think it's more "old man yells at cloud" than anything else.

 

[Canadan]

All of that.

I am 100% in the camp of letting the pros eat these courses alive. Sure, it's going to hurt Jack's feelings that people start to think that the tour is better now and players are better now, than they were in the 60s and 70s. But who cares. Boomer needs to go to pasture. I know that sounds harsh, but everybody needs to stop asking an 80 year old man how to make the game better for 20 and 30 somethings who are playing it right now.

I think you'd have to be nuts to make the claim that golf isn't a higher skill product in 2020 than it was in 1980. The focus on fitness, strength, flexibility, and swing conditioning is SOOOO much higher now.

 

[Canadan]

What's funny is that for Jack, majority of his records are save because of the deep fields, chances are no one will win or make cuts at the level that he did. So, I'm really confused on why he's so concern about the "distance". I don't buy it for one second that his concern is only about course design.

Here's my problem. There are only a select number of golfers on the planet who can drive the ball with extreme accuracy over 300 yards on average with carry. If they have the complete package (which most don't; McIlroy and DJ as prime samples) every round they play, they SHOULD be dominant.

Restricting distance as a skill is downright foolish. It's almost like some of these guys want parity at any cost.

 

[Jeff Spicoli]

The simple solution as it's been said in here is to change the way courses are set up by minimizing roll out, tightening up fairways/landing areas and making the rough more penal. Watching the roll out Webb Simpson was getting on 18 at the Waste Management was insane. 50 yards of roll in the fairway sort of takes the teeth out of a hole. Amateurs aren't overpowering courses, this is purely a PGA tour issue.

If the conditions are changed and the guys are still overpowering the course, get rid of all but the longest par 5s, re-examine other options such as a rollback, or just sit back and enjoy great play.

 

[Golf Ghost]

Here's my problem. There are only a select number of golfers on the planet who can drive the ball with extreme accuracy over 300 yards on average with carry. If they have the complete package (which most don't; McIlroy and DJ as prime samples) every round they play, they SHOULD be dominant.

Restricting distance as a skill is downright foolish. It's almost like some of these guys want parity at any cost.

I agree. Webb won last. According to the USGA, that shouldn't be possible based upon their logic.

 

[Architex]

What's funny is that for Jack, majority of his records are save because of the deep fields, chances are no one will win or make cuts at the level that he did. So, I'm really confused on why he's so concern about the "distance". I don't buy it for one second that his concern is only about course design.

This has been going on before Jack. There was a newspaper article about Bobby Jones saying the same things that Jack is saying now. Jack hit it further than Bobby, Tiger hit it further than Jack, and now the top 20 guys all crush it.


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[LICC]

If they rolled back distance, the long hitters would still have advantages over the shorter hitters.

 

[Golf Ghost]

If they rolled back distance, the long hitters would still have advantages over the shorter hitters.

So the short hitters would be hitting even longer irons into green and supposedly at a disadvantage? So what would that achieve?

 

[Trmpt98]

For amateurs, keep innovating and helping us hit long and straight and make the courses friendly for amateurs. Encourage clubs to enforce what tee box amateurs are playing off based on handicap.

For pros, I would like to see the game made more challenging by changing the courses for pro tournaments. Narrow fairways, thick rough, tough hole locations to benefit players with great short game and shot making ability. No reason to roll back equipment imo.

This is what I would like to see instead of equipment changes. Yet everytime they do this (US Open) people whine and complain that the course was too hard. Most of us amateurs deal with that on a daily basis anyway because we don't get the pristine conditions of the PGA Tour or private clubs that are manicured.

 

[LICC]

Restricting distance as a skill is downright foolish. It's almost like some of these guys want parity at any cost.
[/QUOTE]

So the short hitters would be hitting even longer irons into green and supposedly at a disadvantage? So what would that achieve?

I'm not for a rollback, but the best benefit I see would be to make the Tour events more interesting. Almost every par-4 nowadays is a wedge in on the approach. Almost every par-5 is reachable in two, and not always needing driver off the tee. Players are hitting right over hazards or features that were designed for strategic decision-making. So many par-3s are 200+ yards now. A rollback would bring more variety and decision-making back to the Tour.

 

[Johan185]

So today the USGA and R&A released the highly anticipated Document entitled DISTANCE INSIGHT. https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/advancing-the-game/distance-insights.html

In it they detail how today's Golfer are hitting the ball to Distances which they believe is detrimental to the Future of Golf. With Data, Charts and Graphs to support their position.

Then, without blinking an Eye, they go into a Wonderful discussion about Golfers Habitually Choosing the wrong tee boxes. That Golfers are Attempting to play further Distances than their average Driving Distance allows. Falling victims to the inability to reach the Fairway, slowing play and being detrimental to the game.

They explain that by not choosing the appropriate Tee box for your playing ability you are increasing the problem of Slow Play.

In other words you are responsible for turning people away from golf because your play causes unnecessary delays, prolonging your round. And this issue affects not only others who have to wait for you to take 3 or 4 strokes to arrive at the area around the green. But you are also decreasing your own enjoyment of golfing. Since you can never enjoy yourself if you never have any chance of making a Birdie, Par or even a Bogey.

In the same document they are actually taking both sides and stating that the Golfing community needs to take action to protect the game of golf. From the Golfing Community.

Well are we hitting the ball too Far? Forcing Golf Courses to grow in Length and Expense? Leading to unsustainable economic and environmental problems?

Or are the Course Too Long, without appropriate Tee box choices for the Golfers?

Are the Golfers hitting the ball poorly and achieving undesirable Distances off the Tee? Habitually picking the wrong tee boxes? And just too stubborn to take lessons and hit the ball further into the Fairway?

They can't honestly have it both ways. Maybe in high school we practiced taking both sides of the debate, in order to improve our communication skills and deductive reasoning proficiency.

But we are not in high school any more. Anyone who honestly holds to opposite points of view simultaneously is either not serious. Or seriously deranged.

While I personally do not believe that the current equipment or golf ball rules, standards, specs or limitations are to blame. Nor do I blame the OEM'S spending billions of dollars building equipment and balls that fully comply with today's regulations. I honestly think that the USGA needs to review their own documents and go back to the drawing board.

Pick one side or the other. But not both.

Today's Athletes are bigger, stronger, faster and better trained than ever before. In all areas of human Sports. It's a Good thing that humans and humans lives are better today than yesterday. They deserve the credit for all their achievements. As every Golfer knows, hitting a golf ball accurately at a small target hundreds of yards away is no simple task.

But to blame the players for being too long on one hand, and not long enough in the same breath is not honest. We are not the detrimental source of the problem of golfings decline seen in recent years.

Maybe the ruling bodies should look in the mirror, at themselves.

 

[Golf Ghost]

Restricting distance as a skill is downright foolish. It's almost like some of these guys want parity at any cost.


I'm not for a rollback, but the best benefit I see would be to make the Tour events more interesting. Almost every par-4 nowadays is a wedge in on the approach. Almost every par-5 is reachable in two, and not always needing driver off the tee. Players are hitting right over hazards or features that were designed for strategic decision-making. So many par-3s are 200+ yards now. A rollback would bring more variety and decision-making back to the Tour.

Fair, though I'd argue that there's a reason the big hitters get the majority of the coverage. The crowd reaction this past Sunday to Finau carrying the bunkers was much greater than that of Webb playing a 3-wood out to the right. Casual fans want to see players bomb it out there, rather they score lower or not.

 

[fuffle master]

I think you'd have to be nuts to make the claim that golf isn't a higher skill product in 2020 than it was in 1980. The focus on fitness, strength, flexibility, and swing conditioning is SOOOO much higher now.

Agree entirely with this statement. Athletes will always get bigger, stronger, faster, as years go from past times. The same will be said in 2060 from today. Those athletes will be better than our current golfers of today. It's just modern science and advances in health and body management.

 

[LICC]

Agree entirely with this statement. Athletes will always get bigger, stronger, faster, as years go from past times. The same will be said in 2060 from today. Those athletes will be better than our current golfers of today. It's just modern science and advances in health and body management.

Golfers are no more skilled today than they were in the 1970s and 80s, etc. Scores are lower and distances greater predominantly because of advances in equipment technology.

 

[JMB3]

Agree entirely with this statement. Athletes will always get bigger, stronger, faster, as years go from past times. The same will be said in 2060 from today. Those athletes will be better than our current golfers of today. It's just modern science and advances in health and body management.

Same here. I watched Crossfield's vlog when he interviewed Jamie Sadlowski, who we all know has outrageous power ("135 MPH swing just off the plane"), and he said 90% of his power comes from his body and the time he puts in at the gym, working on strength/mobility/flexibility/etc.

 

[jvbart]

This is what I would like to see instead of equipment changes. Yet everytime they do this (US Open) people whine and complain that the course was too hard. Most of us amateurs deal with that on a daily basis anyway because we don't get the pristine conditions of the PGA Tour or private clubs that are manicured.

Exactly, I wouldn't mind seeing someone win a major at even par. I think a harder course probably separates the best players from the rest of the pack.

 

[JMB3]

The architecture/setup/conditions seemed to tame--at least make less effective--the bomb and gouge guys at Le Golf National last Ryder Cup.

 

[CBaker]

Another thing that I was just thinking about. In regards to driving distance. We are at a point now where a centered shot will still only transfer about 1.5 times of swing speed into ball speed. I see people mention (on social media), that if this trend continues, these courses will be obsolete. But, with the current limits in place, it's not like Cam Champ will be hitting the ball 400 yards eventually. We are seeing the average distance rise slightly as more and more people are hitting the gym and taking their athletic prowess into the game of golf. You have guys that wouldn't have ever chosen golf before entering the game. These guys are athletes now. They train hard. They play under the same equipment restrictions that have been in place for some time now.

So, are we just going to have a gut reaction now because more professional golfers are now "athletes" than ever before?

They literally are afraid of people becoming too athletic for golf.

[A]ny further significant increases in hitting distances at the highest level are undesirable. Whether these increases in distance emanate from advancing equipment technology, greater athleticism of players, improved player coaching, golf course conditioning or a combination of these or other factors, they will have the impact of seriously reducing the challenge of the game

They did back away from it luckily....but that was literally a talking point to them. "The top .00001% are too good and are now getting too athletic, we can't allow it." I can't imagine the age group of this discussion being under the average of about 85.

 

[BigDill]

They literally are afraid of people becoming too athletic for golf.

[A]ny further significant increases in hitting distances at the highest level are undesirable. Whether these increases in distance emanate from advancing equipment technology, greater athleticism of players, improved player coaching, golf course conditioning or a combination of these or other factors, they will have the impact of seriously reducing the challenge of the game

They did back away from it luckily....but that was literally a talking point to them. "The top .00001% are too good and are now getting too athletic, we can't allow it." I can't imagine the age group of this discussion being under the average of about 85.

Which is why I am all in favor of the "John Daly Rule" which would require each PGA player to use a cart for each round stocked with two diet cokes and a pack of Marlboro Reds, all of which must be consumed before the completion of each round and the signing of the scorecard.

 

[CBaker]

Which is why I am all in favor of the "John Daly Rule" which would require each PGA player to use a cart for each round stocked with two diet cokes and a pack of Marlboro Reds, all of which must be consumed before the completion of each round and the signing of the scorecard.

Lets go a step further. You must consume shots after every couple holes. Just make 'em all drunk and try to play.

 

[LICC]

Same here. I watched Crossfield's vlog when he interviewed Jamie Sadlowski, who we all know has outrageous power ("135 MPH swing just off the plane"), and he said 90% of his power comes from his body and the time he puts in at the gym, working on strength/mobility/flexibility/etc.

That sounds like some excessive hyperbole there. If Sadlowski stopped strength training, he would still hit it a ton and his distance probably would be pretty close to what it is now.

 

[radiman]

That sounds like some excessive hyperbole there. If Sadlowski stopped strength training, he would still hit it a ton and his distance probably would be pretty close to what it is now.

But, he grew up training for hockey and then golf, and more specifically, training to hit the ball a mile. He has a foundation of athleticism that many golfers from years ago don't have. I feel like the game in the Tiger Era has attracted a new type of player that wouldn't have chosen golf in the past.

 

[JMB3]

That sounds like some excessive hyperbole there. If Sadlowski stopped strength training, he would still hit it a ton and his distance probably would be pretty close to what it is now.

Sure, it's hyperbole. But he trained his butt off to be able to swing a driver 135+ MPH. You don't add speed by just sitting around. And should tour players being able to swing faster be reason to roll back equipment??

 

[LICC]

But, he grew up training for hockey and then golf, and more specifically, training to hit the ball a mile. He has a foundation of athleticism that many golfers from years ago don't have. I feel like the game in the Tiger Era has attracted a new type of player that wouldn't have chosen golf in the past.

Like who? Who on the Tour wouldn't be playing golf in a prior era because they were attracted to a different sport? And comparing the Long Drive competitors is not exactly an apples to apples comparison to the Tour. The LD competitions are a circus atmosphere and they also have trouble hitting a 50-yard wide field.