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Wedge grooves and spin?

SuperStroke
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YetiLooper

YetiLooper

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I'm sure it has been discussed here in depth, maybe it hasn't. As I understand it grooves themselves do not impart spin to a golf ball. Their sole function is to channel moisture and debris away from the ball and clinics interaction. I can understand that theory but I have a question then... if the grooves have no impact then how do we lose spin as grooves wear out? In theory the depth of the grooves should be unaffected by use which shouldn't block their ability to channel junk away. So why do they wear out and lose spin?
 
smarter people than I will chime in with facts. I do think they impart some spin, but not as much as proper technique. so I think the minimal amount they impart probably wears over time. but again, I don't know that for sure and other people with, you know, FACTS will answer the question correctly.


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Yes the grooves do help impart spin on the ball. They give the cover something to "bite" into at impact and as the wedge moves through the ball it allows the ball to ride up the face slightly. If the grooves get filled before impact then there is a reduced amount of friction which will reduce the spin and produce a "Flier".
 
YetiLooper said:
I'm sure it has been discussed here in depth, maybe it hasn't. As I understand it grooves themselves do not impart spin to a golf ball. Their sole function is to channel moisture and debris away from the ball and clinics interaction. I can understand that theory but I have a question then... if the grooves have no impact then how do we lose spin as grooves wear out? In theory the depth of the grooves should be unaffected by use which shouldn't block their ability to channel junk away. So why do they wear out and lose spin?
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As the grooves wear out, they unare able to channel as much debris out of the way. The grooves themselves do nothing to directly impart spin.

Would be my guess.
 
I also believe that the reduced spin isn't as sever as we think, from an RPM standpoint.

I still stand by the idea that the grooves do not actually bite the ball. Surface roughness and grooves do not directly affect the ball.
 
Google;

http://wishongolf.com/wedge-backspin-create-backspin-with-a-micro-groove-wedge/

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=15247.0

http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+...is_of_Spin_How_To_Make_A_Golf_Ball_Dance.html


Everyone can draw their own conclusions. I know when I made the change from square grooves, to the "new" V grooves, I had to adjust or revamp my game a little as I get more rollout today with the V grooves than I did with the square grooves.

I know I for one, would not want any groove-less wedges in my bag.
 
They have LOTS to do with spin. Basic concept with irons and wedges is that you hit downward on the ball compressing it in between the turf and the club, the grooves bite the ball creating the spin.

In 2010, the USGA banned square or U grooves because they worked too well out of the rough making missing the fairway less penal. The old grooves were deeper which enabled the clubs to have more bite and more spin.

This is also why my wedges were made before 2010 and I am in no rush to get new ones :)

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bogeymachine80 said:
They have LOTS to do with spin. Basic concept with irons and wedges is that you hit downward on the ball compressing it in between the turf and the club, the grooves bite the ball creating the spin.

In 2010, the USGA banned square or U grooves because they worked too well out of the rough making missing the fairway less penal. The old grooves were deeper which enabled the clubs to have more bite and more spin.

This is also why my wedges were made before 2010 and I am in no rush to get new ones :)

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Why does my driver spin so much then? There are no grooves. There should be no spin.

Surface area in contact with the ball creates spin. deeper grooves funnel more debris away from the ball and clubface contact.
 
blugold said:
I also believe that the reduced spin isn't as sever as we think, from an RPM standpoint.

I still stand by the idea that the grooves do not actually bite the ball. Surface roughness and grooves do not directly affect the ball.
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Grooves have rounded edges too. Tougher to really bite with rounded edges.
 
blugold said:
Why does my driver spin so much then? There are no grooves. There should be no spin.

Surface area in contact with the ball creates spin. deeper grooves funnel more debris away from the ball and clubface contact.
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Ball speed and AOA. When I hit a cut shot with 7 iron it spins way more than driver. Grooves do impart spin bud.
 
So back to the question... how do they wear out? The edges if the grooves could conceivable show more wear but unless the face is actually wearing thinner then the grooves should remain in tact and capable of channeling debris away.
 
Bobby Purify said:
Ball speed and AOA. When I hit a cut shot with 7 iron it spins way more than driver. Grooves do impart spin bud.
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Sure, but the grooves are perpendicular to the spin you're trying to impart on the ball. How are those grooves effective at all?
 
Bobby Purify said:
Ball speed and AOA. When I hit a cut shot with 7 iron it spins way more than driver. Grooves do impart spin bud.
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No. They don't. They funnel debris. Grooves do not impart spin on the ball. They funnel debris (grass, dirt, moisture) away from the contact point between the ball and clubface. The contact between the ball and surface area imparts spin on the ball.

I am all for debate, but this is a discussion about how things actually work. This is not a debate. I will stand firm on this.
 
captaincaution said:
Sure, but the grooves are perpendicular to the spin you're trying to impart on the ball. How are those grooves effective at all?
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In theory perpendicular would great more friction than in line.

I'm curious of there is a regulation that dictates grooves must be parallel to the leading edge. Tires for example have different patterns to divert water more efficiently than just perpendicular.
 
blugold said:
No. They don't. They funnel debris. Grooves do not impart spin on the ball. They funnel debris (grass, dirt, moisture) away from the contact point between the ball and clubface. The contact between the ball and surface area imparts spin on the ball.

I am all for debate, but this is a discussion about how things actually work. This is not a debate. I will stand firm on this.
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I'm all for debate for the sake of education. What about spin milling? If grooves have no effect then all wedges of the same loft should have the exact same spin rate, right? I suppose COG could affect how the mass impacts the wedge and how the energy is then conveyed.
 
YetiLooper said:
In theory perpendicular would great more friction than in line.

I'm curious of there is a regulation that dictates grooves must be parallel to the leading edge. Tires for example have different patterns to divert water more efficiently than just perpendicular.
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Yeah, so how does one impart cut or draw spin, which is parallel to the grooves?
 
YetiLooper said:
I'm all for debate for the sake of education. What about spin milling? If grooves have no effect then all wedges of the same loft should have the exact same spin rate, right? I suppose COG could affect how the mass impacts the wedge and how the energy is then conveyed.
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Technique, lie, and the ball will play the biggest role in spin.

Interesting enough, ever look at a Hopkins wedge? Just grooves. No laser etching or acid wash or extra roughness. Just grooves cut into metal. And those Hopkins wedges spin just as good as Vokey SM4s, SM5s, and Mack Daddy wedges.
 
YetiLooper said:
I'm all for debate for the sake of education. What about spin milling? If grooves have no effect then all wedges of the same loft should have the exact same spin rate, right? I suppose COG could affect how the mass impacts the wedge and how the energy is then conveyed.
Click to expand...

COG does have quite an effect, due to the gear effect. Look at the MD3 wedges. They raised the cog to get more spin on the ball. In the same way, a ball struck high on the face of the club (any club) has less backspin.
 
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YetiLooper said:
In theory perpendicular would great more friction than in line.

I'm curious of there is a regulation that dictates grooves must be parallel to the leading edge. Tires for example have different patterns to divert water more efficiently than just perpendicular.
Click to expand...
Yes. USGA Rules. appendix II 5(i)
 
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