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Is golf getting overly complicated?

adamw238 said:
I think golf is turning into every other sport when it comes to metrics. 20 years ago no one knew what Wins over Replacement meant, yet now it's one if the most important metrics for measuring a player's value. Golf is no different. Launch angle, spin rates, MOI, smash factor, angle of attack, etc are things that are used to measure a golfer's ability other than score. I think it's amateurs that put a bigger emphasis on it because we want to be as close to a pro's numbers as possible. I'm very guilty of this. I over value smash and spin way to much in an attempt to justify why I should buy a club


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Smash is huge dude. It doesn't really tell me how a club fits me. Just how well I'm swinging that club. It's such an important number. I chase the impossible 1.5. I want it. Just the fact that it will never happen makes me want to get there even more.



Goes back to me original point. It's not that we are getting to much information. We just don't know how to digest the information we are getting.
 
blugold said:
Smash is huge dude. It doesn't really tell me how a club fits me. Just how well I'm swinging that club. It's such an important number. I chase the impossible 1.5. I want it. Just the fact that it will never happen makes me want to get there even more.



Goes back to me original point. It's not that we are getting to much information. We just don't know how to digest the information we are getting.
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No doubt smash is huge for guys like us who care about it, but I did fine before I understood it was my point. Now I obsess over the number.

And you are 100% correct in your last paragraph.


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The pros hit to a distance, and they've been fitted with the correct specs for years. Amateurs try to hit to maximum distance every swing. Even with the correct specs amateurs have poor golf course management skills. Everyone should get the best fit equipment, swing lessons, and course management lessons. Two out of three is only 66% effective. Get a coach and ask guidance on clubs to buy. Otherwise, a salespersons will close a sale as they should to make a living.


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It's only as complicated as you want it. You can still go into the store and buy some sticks because you like the commercial or your favorite golfer is using that brand and walk out and play 18 that day. I think most people who are on a golf forum are looking for a little more out of their equipment and improvements to their game. You can chase heads, shafts and numbers all you want but no says it's something you have to do.
 
I'm not so sure that it's so much golf getting over complicated as it is Madison Avenue getting better at illusionary sales. Illusionary... a made up word, but it fits. They come up with all sorts of slight of hand terms and measurements that give amateur golfers the illusion that change is always better; leaving us forever chasing the best club that will lower our score, Better that we understand it's not always the club, but how we swing it.
 
malemotives said:
I'm not so sure that it's so much golf getting over complicated as it is Madison Avenue getting better at illusionary sales. Illusionary... a made up word, but it fits. They come up with all sorts of slight of hand terms and measurements that give amateur golfers the illusion that change is always better; leaving us forever chasing the best club that will lower our score, Better that we understand it's not always the club, but how we swing it.
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What sort of terms are you thinking of?
 
I think the science of golf has become very number orientated. Golf itself isn't complicated nor is the equipment we use. The simple fact is that the vast majority don't care about fittings or what fits them. They buy based on price and looks. They resell to buy the next thing an OEM said would work.

the days of one bag of clubs for a few years is gone. People buy and use what they feel will work. So I don't think golf has gotten more complicated. That being said, if you try to hold onto the spin rates, launch angles, flex points, lie angles, shaft materials, head materials then yes. The physics behind golf is way over most peoples heads. But when I comes down to brass tacks those numbers don't mean a hill of beans to most golfers.

And let me say, I do believe in fittings. I believe in know what works for you, not why. The why is what gets complicated. The what is easy to carry around in your mental Rolodex. So when a new set is wanted you can walk in and say I was this head at this lie angle with this shaft.
 
blugold said:
Smash is huge dude. It doesn't really tell me how a club fits me. Just how well I'm swinging that club. It's such an important number. I chase the impossible 1.5. I want it. Just the fact that it will never happen makes me want to get there even more.



Goes back to me original point. It's not that we are getting to much information. We just don't know how to digest the information we are getting.
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Smash is only huge if you have a repeatable swing. You don't and most amateurs don't. I don't care if you get perfect smash, if it's not accompanied by a good score then it's meaningless.
 
Is golf getting overly complicated?

Tadashi70 said:
Smash is only huge if you have a repeatable swing. You don't and most amateurs don't. I don't care if you get perfect smash, if it's not accompanied by a good score then it's meaningless.
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I agree with this so much. You can also have perfect smash and hit low line drives all day. Looking at numbers it looks great, but it's not practical for a golf course and it's not a very usable shot
 
Tadashi70 said:
Smash is only huge if you have a repeatable swing. You don't and most amateurs don't. I don't care if you get perfect smash, if it's not accompanied by a good score then it's meaningless.
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I know that score is the only stat that matters. I don't have a repeatable swing. Doesn't mean that I don't or shouldn't chase an efficient power transfer ratio
 
blugold said:
I know that score is the only stat that matters. I don't have a repeatable swing. Doesn't mean that I don't or shouldn't chase an efficient power transfer ratio
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Why would you chase something that is unattainable with out a repeatable swing. How about stop chasing the unicorn and work on the game. And this goes for everyone.

Smash factor for those that care about such numbers is the 300 yard drive
 
blugold said:
What sort of terms are you thinking of?
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Here's a good example....

"Graphite Design golf shafts, 'pure distance & total accuracy', driver golfshafts increase your game, offered on Nike,"

If I have no concept of how to swing a golf club... how will this shaft improve my distance/accuracy? For that matter, why would I take advertising serious when they try to manipulate me to buying a specific brand just because Tiger Woods or Bubba Watson use them? Good instruction and correct swing is much more valuable than any specific brand club. I have a set of Pings, not because Bubba uses Ping, but because I tried different clubs before buying and the Ping Rapture felt most comfortable. I used that as a starting point (comfort). The rest is about learning. I changed to Mizuno when I went to the JumboMax grip. Again it was about comfort as a starting point. Results came as I learned more. Granted my current 19 handicap is not lights out, but playing less than 2 years, it is better than many at my club who have played for many years and keep changing clubs... especially Drivers and putters, based on these Madison Ave catch phrases (terms). What the heck is "Smash value" or whatever it's called, and how is my knowing that going to take strokes off my rounds?
 
malemotives said:
Here's a good example....

"Graphite Design golf shafts, 'pure distance & total accuracy', driver golfshafts increase your game, offered on Nike,"

If I have no concept of how to swing a golf club... how will this shaft improve my distance/accuracy? For that matter, why would I take advertising serious when they try to manipulate me to buying a specific brand just because Tiger Woods or Bubba Watson use them? Good instruction and correct swing is much more valuable than any specific brand club. I have a set of Pings, not because Bubba uses Ping, but because I tried different clubs before buying and the Ping Rapture felt most comfortable. I used that as a starting point (comfort). The rest is about learning. I changed to Mizuno when I went to the JumboMax grip. Again it was about comfort as a starting point. Results came as I learned more. Granted my current 19 handicap is not lights out, but playing less than 2 years, it is better than many at my club who have played for many years and keep changing clubs... especially Drivers and putters, based on these Madison Ave catch phrases (terms). What the heck is "Smash value" or whatever it's called, and how is my knowing that going to take strokes off my rounds?
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Smash factor is the ratio between ball speed and swing speed. The higher the ration, the more energy has been transferred.

And Freddie. Yes the one perfect smash is meaningless if the other 99 were awful. I agree. And it is easy to get wrapped up in the driver swing and forget about the rest of the game. The owner of course told me two months ago that I need to play more golf and play less golf swing.
 
The problem with fittings is our swings change over time . .or might even change during the season . I'm strictly a warm weather golfer , when snow hits and cold .. I'm basically done . This year was a rare exception , I was working on swing changes . What is to say my swing will change over the winter . Will those custom fit clubs be good for me ? I had Callaway razors bent to offset my pull tendency last year.. Bent flat . And now I'm pulling again . Custom is great for guys that can literally play everyday of the year . For is Midwest season guys , I'm not sure . But open to opinion
 
Mystery Meat said:
The problem with fittings is our swings change over time . .or might even change during the season . I'm strictly a warm weather golfer , when snow hits and cold .. I'm basically done . This year was a rare exception , I was working on swing changes . What is to say my swing will change over the winter . Will those custom fit clubs be good for me ? I had Callaway razors bent to offset my pull tendency last year.. Bent flat . And now I'm pulling again . Custom is great for guys that can literally play everyday of the year . For is Midwest season guys , I'm not sure . But open to opinion
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I'm a midwest golfer too, but have the luxury of indoor hitting space near me. Swings do evolve over time, but for the most part they have the same main characteristics of the original. I find that if something changes in my swing, it doesn't matter what clubs I have in my hand. Perfect example, Sunday morning shot 111 with my brand new Apex Pro irons.....had nothing to do with the clubs though. I was swinging like an a-hole. Afternoon came around and I slowed things down, shot 80. Nothing changed with my clubs and nothing changed drastically with my swing as far as basic mechanics. The first round I was out of sync and trying to hit a great shot every time. Second 18 I just slowed things down and went to work. The point is that if you have a tendency to push, pull, slice or hook a ball there is no club or adjustment that is going to fix that. I've seen people with the most draw biased driver still hit pull slices. Heck, I saw one guy on the range Monday tell another guy that the reason he was hitting high slices was because he didn't have a driver set to draw and he teed the ball up to high. I looked at how the guy had his ball teed up and it was fine and his driver was more than adequate. He had an over the top swing and was casting at the ball.

I think having a swing that you can repeat over time is more important than any numbers or technology that is at our disposal.
 
Yes ... very complicated and makes me to over think what stick to use.

Use Fw 5 or iron #5 or iron #4 ??.... lucky I already give my hybrid #5 to my golf friend, and I leave semi hybrid #4 n 5 , Fw 3 at home.

G or A or S or 54 or 58 ?? ..... aarrghh
 
I'd have to say both yes, and no. It depends on who you are, and how well you can comprehend those numbers - and translate them to your game.

The trackman can give numbers which, if you understand how they work together, point out obvious tendancies and flaws that you may want to work on. It also gives solid evidence as to how ball shaping takes place. I believe somewhere back in this thread, someone mentions that the trackman basically eliminated the old idea of "sidespin," and replaces it with axis, or tilt - whatever....

Anyways, it's certainly not for everybody, but has helped me understand the essential relationship between swingpath and face angles, etc, and how to achieve different kinds of shots - my alignment and ability to correct shots has dramatically improved as well.

If you wanna geek out for 10 minutes - Mark Crossfield runs through some stuff related to this thread - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svz16O92sPs
 
Has golf become more complicated?

Yes, because like every part of our lives today, golf is also a victim to information overload. Google a good recipe for fried chicken and you get a free instruction on how to hit the ball straight LOL.

No in the sense that golf is still a game where we need to tap a little ball into the hole.

I'll use the analogy of our phones today. Does it have information and features that we don't use and we didn't even know were there? Yes. Do we use our phones differently? Perhaps a little bit, but to our advantage. I don't think we can go back to a phone that doesn't have a camera, tell us the time, has GPS, and has Internet.

Has all this complexity made the phone harder to use? No. For most of us, the modern phone allows us to make calls and communicate with each other faster and simpler.

I like the information growing in golf. All this info is starting to demystify golf, because for more than a century now we can't agree on the proper golf swing LOL.

I willfully embrace being a golf gearhead out of fun, the search for a few more yards is always tempting. Do I seriously believe I can get these extra yards from switching gear? I'm only half sure. Still, I'm having fun in the search, in trying things out. Whether I find it or not is less important.

And I bet other people have also felt spending time and money on gear being all worthwhile when they encounter a club that gets better by every game and can almost do no wrong.

Golf can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be, whatever adds to the fun and makes us play faster and better. I'm glad the information is there in case I want it.
 
I've been gradually uncomplicating my game. As I see it, golf at its most basic is really no different than it was 300 years ago. Hit the ball, find the ball, hit the ball again, until it falls in the hole.

To that end, I only have 2 wedges, and one is a pure sand wedge (54°), the other is my utility wedge (51°) that's used for everything else around the green. No 56°, no 60° - the PW and GW from my set are mostly full shot clubs, more like a 10 iron and 11 iron. I have 3 woods - driver, 5W and 7W. No hybrids. I could probably drop a couple of irons and never really miss them.

I use my electronic helper (Garmin Approach G6 GPS) only sparingly any more, usually just on courses that are unfamiliar to me. It feels good taking my game back to a simpler time.
 
I think golf is only as complicating as the golfer makes it. Grab club, aim center green, hit ball.
 
ArmyGolf said:
I think golf is only as complicating as the golfer makes it. Grab club, aim center green, hit ball.
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True. I don't know why, but the golf swing as a physical performance has been over complicated so much that it messes up us. It's not that different from a hockey player taking a shot or a soccer player kicking the ball, and they have people trying to run in to them. Sure, golf is maybe the hardest game in the world, but it's still only a matter of a club head, speed, angle and the ball.
 
When I first started playing, "fitting" was unheard of.
You went into the pro shop to buy a new set of clubs. If you thought you had a slower swing you bought regular shafts, if you knew you swung a little faster than most others, you bought stiff. That was it.
You bought a set of irons, usually 3-SW, (the 3 iron normally came out of the set and spent it's time sitting in the back of a cupboard somewhere), and a matching set of woods, a Driver and 3 & 5. No choice of "fancy" wedges, with their different "bounce" and "grinds".
And then you got on with it.
It is very confusing nowadays. I'd hate to be just starting out.
And the weird thing is that despite all the advances in golf club design, the better balls, the better shoes and clothing etc. the average club golfers handicap has remained pretty static over all these years.
 
Without a doubt, just look at the number of hackers on here constantly over thinking and complicating the game. It's crazy!
 
As someone who has returned to the sport after a 15 years break, I am flabbergasted with the amount of sheer information there is now. Someone just getting into it would think this sport is rocket science!!! Fundamentally, you take a stick and hit a ball. If you can hit the ball well, you'll do better. Does it matter which stick you use and which ball you have? Once you reach a certain level, I'm sure the answer is YES! For me right now, it doesn't. Not even a little bit.

Case in point. I went to the range with my POS Dick's Sporting Goods Top Flight $190 for a full set and stand bag set and was hitting away. I wasn't doing badly, but certainly wasn't crushing the ball every shot. Next to me is a guy trying out different drivers, and not hitting one shot well. This way, that way, topping the ball, hitting the ball straight up in the air, etc. These were all the top of the line Drivers and a pro was watching him hit. "Nah, that ones not working with your swing", "Try this other one, it'll work better with your fade", etc. And here I was with a Driver that wasn't really even a name brand, getting the ball to loft a bit and hitting it pretty straight maybe 60% of the time. Slicing it here and there, but really trying a nice slow, steady consistent swing.

You need to have the fundamentals down was my take home message. I'm certainly not good enough to know how to adjust my spin or whether a pro fitting will help me now. Maybe in awhile I'll change my mind. Maybe not.

The best test for this would be to ask your course Pro to use a variety of clubs and see if he or she performs the same. The Pro at our local driving range hits my clubs just as well as he hits his. He told me so himself and then showed me. Good stuff.
 
I have to laugh when I see a newbie to the game go for a full fitting on a set of clubs.
I can understand buying a set of clubs that are the right length for you, but when you are first starting, and have a swing like a mad axe murderer that changes from day to day, let alone from shot to shot, how can a full fitting benefit you?
I was fitted for some Mizuno irons once. I had to hit a 6 iron off of a mat.
I hate hitting off of mats. This is the one reason alone that I do not go to the driving range.
I do not hit the ball properly off of mats, fear of a repetition of tennis elbow sees me running scared.
So how can a fitter tell what clubs are best for me unless I am hitting solid "natural" shots off of grass???
 
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