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Disabled golfer sues for right to drive cart on greens

Get a golf cart within 10 yds of one of my greens and you can expect to be removed from the course very quickly. Between the potential physical damage and possible contamination from outside grasses that can be brought into the greens by the tires, you are looking in the 6 figure range when it comes to replacing or repairing those greens.
 
AG47 said:
Get a golf cart within 10 yds of one of my greens and you can expect to be removed from the course very quickly. Between the potential physical damage and possible contamination from outside grasses that can be brought into the greens by the tires, you are looking in the 6 figure range when it comes to replacing or repairing those greens.
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We aren't talking about a regular golf cart. These are specially designed carts which are intended to be driven everywhere, including the putting greens. The players who are locked into such a cart still have restrictions, because there are places on most courses where a cart simply can't physically go. They also can't hit a very long ball because most of them have to swing entirely with their arms, so they may not stray into such places as often as an able bodied player does.

The key is that these carts are designed to be driven on greens without doing damage. If that course is really honest in stating that the cart damages the green then they must have the softest, wettest greens I've ever heard of. If they made some extreme test like spinning doughnuts on the green to test it, then I call foul on them. I can drag my feet crossing a green even without spikes and tear up the turf without a lot of effort. These ADA carts are designed to be driven on the greens and the guys I've seen using them are just as careful to avoid doing any harm while driving the cart as I am when walking.
 
Have him sue then have him sign a waiver to use the cart on the greens and if it DOES damage the greens, then both he and the cart manufacturer should be held accountable for damages.

If he feels he can still play the game we all love with the aid of such a cart, then so be it, but he should respect the rules and policies of "private" clubs.
 
I'm all for that guy playing golf and I'm very glad there are places that he can. While I've never personally belonged to one, this one is a private club. Good on them they let him play as a guest, but they had their own private rules to adhere to also. Something their paying membership counts on I'm sure. Sadly (to me), this particular situation looks like little more than a premeditated money grab scheme. I hope it has legit intent, doesn't smell like it though.
 
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Daddio said:
I'm all for that guy playing golf and I'm very glad there are places that he can. While I've never personally belonged to one, this one is a private club. Good on them they let him play as a guest, but they had their own private rules to adhere to also. Something their paying membership counts on I'm sure. Sadly (to me), this particular situation looks like little more than a premeditated money grab scheme. I hope it has legit intent, doesn't smell like it though.
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The issue is that although it is a private club, it rents it's facilities to the public, therefore it must comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act as an entity. That is the basis of the lawsuit, however ridiculous the case may be.
 
Fourputt said:
We aren't talking about a regular golf cart. These are specially designed carts which are intended to be driven everywhere, including the putting greens. The players who are locked into such a cart still have restrictions, because there are places on most courses where a cart simply can't physically go. They also can't hit a very long ball because most of them have to swing entirely with their arms, so they may not stray into such places as often as an able bodied player does.

The key is that these carts are designed to be driven on greens without doing damage. If that course is really honest in stating that the cart damages the green then they must have the softest, wettest greens I've ever heard of. If they made some extreme test like spinning doughnuts on the green to test it, then I call foul on them. I can drag my feet crossing a green even without spikes and tear up the turf without a lot of effort. These ADA carts are designed to be driven on the greens and the guys I've seen using them are just as careful to avoid doing any harm while driving the cart as I am when walking.
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Unless it's a hover cart then there is going to be unnecessary damage and extra compaction of soil that leads to serious problems over time. Just pulling a pull-cart across a green causes more damage than walking. It comes down to pounds per square inch where the tires meet the turf.
 
Whatever happened to taking your business elsewhere? And $250,000 for being embarrassed? That's absurd. He's owed a refund of his greens fee at best.
 
AG47 said:
Unless it's a hover cart then there is going to be unnecessary damage and extra compaction of soil that leads to serious problems over time. Just pulling a pull-cart across a green causes more damage than walking. It comes down to pounds per square inch where the tires meet the turf.
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Slightly OT, but in Australia, courses encourage pull carts on the green, which actually benefits their greens.

Here's the best part: heftier-wheeled manual carts have been around Aussie links forever and are even considered part of the maintenance plan. At every elite club I pulled into, you're not met by a pretty-boy Disneyland greeter, but instead by a row of free buggies. Very few golfers Down Under carry their bag, and caddies appear almost nonexistent. (Motorized carts are discouraged, though sadly they're appearing at more and more courses.) Most of the standard buggies feature a small sand bucket dangling from the center rod for filling divot holes. And when golfers approach the greens, they're encouraged to push the unit right on across. That simple act--which never feels right to an American no matter how many times you do it--toughens and smooths the greens in the thinking of Australian superintendents. And in a practical sense, it saves an immense amount of pushcart time avoiding the annoying circumvention of what Americans coddle: the putting surface. With less of the chemical dependence that can lead to thatch build-up and the need for frequent aerification, it's no coincidence that Australians sport firmer, faster, smoother and more disease-resistant putting surfaces that are a fraction of the American price to build and maintain.
 
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Philly Golf Guy said:
Slightly OT, but in Australia, courses encourage pull carts on the green, which actually benefits their greens.

Here's the best part: heftier-wheeled manual carts have been around Aussie links forever and are even considered part of the maintenance plan. At every elite club I pulled into, you're not met by a pretty-boy Disneyland greeter, but instead by a row of free buggies. Very few golfers Down Under carry their bag, and caddies appear almost nonexistent. (Motorized carts are discouraged, though sadly they're appearing at more and more courses.) Most of the standard buggies feature a small sand bucket dangling from the center rod for filling divot holes. And when golfers approach the greens, they're encouraged to push the unit right on across. That simple act--which never feels right to an American no matter how many times you do it--toughens and smooths the greens in the thinking of Australian superintendents. And in a practical sense, it saves an immense amount of pushcart time avoiding the annoying circumvention of what Americans coddle: the putting surface. With less of the chemical dependence that can lead to thatch build-up and the need for frequent aerification, it's no coincidence that Australians sport firmer, faster, smoother and more disease-resistant putting surfaces that are a fraction of the American price to build and maintain.
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This is a practice that I have never heard of after 6 years in the golf business with 4 as a Superintendent.
 
AG47 said:
This is a practice that I have never heard of after 6 years in the golf business with 4 as a Superintendent.
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I guess not in Australia? :act-up:
 
AG47 said:
Unless it's a hover cart then there is going to be unnecessary damage and extra compaction of soil that leads to serious problems over time. Just pulling a pull-cart across a green causes more damage than walking. It comes down to pounds per square inch where the tires meet the turf.
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why would you know for certain what your saying is the hard truth? Are you familiar with these carts and know this for certain? What about the mowers, rollers, and aerators , many are as large or larger and heavier than these carts and are on the greens on a regular basis. I'm not saying your so wrong but just that perhaps you are making assumptions here unless you do have experiences with these carts and I also must question them being any different for better or worse than the other equipment I mention. If those machines are designed to be on greens than why couldn't a cart also be designed for it?
 
First of all, I will say I am not a greenskeeper and my knowledge of course equipment is limited to driving a 1972 GMC pickup with a picker attachment at a range I worked at in high school. To compare this ADA cart to a mower is really comparing apples to oranges. Mowers are always in motion and never (or at least shouldn't be) parked on the green. They also move in a straight line across the green with the exception of the final trimming along the outer edge of the green. I have never seen the ADA cart in action, but I expect there is a significant amount of wheel turning in order to get aligned with the ball, especially after a missed 6 footer (and if it were me the missed remaining 3 footer).
 
AG47 said:
Unless it's a hover cart then there is going to be unnecessary damage and extra compaction of soil that leads to serious problems over time. Just pulling a pull-cart across a green causes more damage than walking. It comes down to pounds per square inch where the tires meet the turf.
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So... now they use hover-mowers? Come on - you'd have an argument if we were talking about a large number of players, but one guy in one cart for one round isn't going to compact the greens as much as daily mowing and rolling is. Lets at least stay with reality.
 
Fourputt said:
So... now they use hover-mowers? Come on - you'd have an argument if we were talking about a large number of players, but one guy in one cart for one round isn't going to compact the greens as much as daily mowing and rolling is. Lets at least stay with reality.
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See post above. The parking and turning actually make sense about green damage.



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Fourputt said:
So... now they use hover-mowers? Come on - you'd have an argument if we were talking about a large number of players, but one guy in one cart for one round isn't going to compact the greens as much as daily mowing and rolling is. Lets at least stay with reality.
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Yes we have researched the carts and seen them tested. They are over 100lbs heavier than a standard cart and have turf treaded tires on the rear with Agri like treads on the front tires. One slight turn and the turf is is damaged.

Comparing slick mower tires to treaded cart tires is like comparing night and day. And even slick tires will damage the grass if the operator turns in the wrong manner on the green.

Mowers and rollers are designed to have less surface pressure on the turf than a persons foot. For example, the average human foot generates plus or minus 8psi when standing, our greens roller generates 2 psi when rolling across the surface. Greens mowers have wider tires and are inflated to much lower pressures therefore there is more surface contact and better weight distribution across the surface( in the range of 4psi)

The ADA carts could use these same tires but then other parts of the course would be inaccessible due to the lack of traction that they provide on slopes and wet surfaces. It's really a win/lose situation.

PS. Yes there are "hover" mowers used in the golf industry. They are actually called fly mowers and are used on steep terrain and around bunkers. They don't actually hover but are designed without wheels so that they "glide" across the ground and are easily manipulated.
 
Honestly if it was me, I just wouldn't sign up for a membership nor play a round as a guest again. Next alcoholics will be suing for the right to drink and drive.
 
I don't get the mower argument.

When a green is cut, the ENTIRE green is cut. The mower runs across every inch of said green, leaving a consistent level behind. How is that comparable to a single track line from a cart?
 
Here's a post from the USGA about the ADA regulations and carts, with some data and quotes from superintendents, for what it's worth:

http://usga.org/course_care/green_section_record/2007/mar_apr/Golf-Course-Maintenance-and-the-ADA/

Also interesting that some of the other courses in the area have been quoted as saying they have no issue with these - one of them is Granite Links, which is a high-end daily fee course, so they're absolutely covered by the ADA. My thoughts on this is that the situation here is a bit tricky in that Woodland is a private course 99.99% of the time. I guess I'm with PGG here in that his legal team is doing him a disservice (at least on the PR side) by asking for monetary damages.
 
Seems similar to the lawyers that travel around a state with several disabled "clients" who enter small businesses, restaurants, stores and find some obscure issue that violates some ADA statute. The lawyers approach the business, demand money for the alleged violation or they say they will report them for ADA violations and sue.... This is common in many areas of Florida. In fact they just came through Volusia County about 2 months ago..
Not the same venues, but similar MO... Money grabbing.... Disabled people need special needs sometimes, but extortion should not be a way to get businesses to comply.... Just my opinion, but this is America and they are pursuing the American Dream: Find a deep pocket and try to empty it through litigation. Again, just my opinion..
 
I spent about an hr today researching the ADA and either I'm missing something or the lawyer hasnt been doing his job. It pertains to public facilities and commercial buildings. With the course being a private course it is considered neither of those.
 
AG47 said:
I spent about an hr today researching the ADA and either I'm missing something or the lawyer hasnt been doing his job. It pertains to public facilities and commercial buildings. With the course being a private course it is considered neither of those.
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The article states that since the club opens up to the public for a number of events and tournaments, it is subject to the ADA despite it primarily being a private club.
 
Philly Golf Guy said:
The article states that since the club opens up to the public for a number of events and tournaments, it is subject to the ADA despite it primarily being a private club.
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I'm sure some judge has made this true, but the argument doesn't pass muster with me. It wasn't functioning as a public place at the time.
 
Wake said:
I'm sure some judge has made this true, but the argument doesn't pass muster with me. It wasn't functioning as a public place at the time.
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It's likely similar to application of the Commerce clause; in that if the club is deriving the benefits of opening to the public at any time, it needs to abide by the regulations of a public place, regardless of whether the incident took place when it was open to the public. The theory being that if it's open to the public at any time, it needs to accommodate anyone just like a completely public facility.
 
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I understand that he wants to play and can if he is aided with his cart.

But there has to be a point where people have to realize they can't do everything they want at anyplace they want to. They also need to respect/accept the choices and reasoning others have made.


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