Those finishing holes are fantastic.
Lets talk Pops
Those finishing holes are fantastic.
Lets talk Pops
Pops are hard for group match play. We have a group of 12 that play skins that are arguing about it right now. I currently sit at a 10 handicap and with Arccos I have access to every hole I have played this year. I birdie 5.8% of the time which is .9 birdies per round. Our skins always come down to birdies (an occasional par will win).
A guy played with us Sunday that said he was a 22 cap so we gave him 7 strokes on the seven hardest holes. He got 3 net birdies; no one else got strokes and no one else had more than one birdie. I think we are doing it wrong.
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Pops are hard for group match play. We have a group of 12 that play skins that are arguing about it right now. I currently sit at a 10 handicap and with Arccos I have access to every hole I have played this year. I birdie 5.8% of the time which is .9 birdies per round. Our skins always come down to birdies (an occasional par will win).
A guy played with us Sunday that said he was a 22 cap so we gave him 7 strokes on the seven hardest holes. He got 3 net birdies; no one else got strokes and no one else had more than one birdie. I think we are doing it wrong.
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I don’t know the correct way percentage wise per person but in a recent round with folks from the THP Bridgestone Championship, Vortex and I had the same HC (10) and we’d agreed to 9 hole shamble and 9 hole best ball. We gave 4 pops to the 14 (my Pardner djt311) and 12 to the 22 (my roomie, Hoosiermess) A hole or two in I told my partner that we were going to struggle on the front nine with the shamble format but we should be able to make some ground up on the back in the best ball format. That’s exactly what happened. We won 17 and 18 to make the match A/S.
Shamble should probably be played with some percentage for sure, maybe even best ball, but I knew we were in trouble on the front really quickly and just hoped we wouldn’t be too far down to make a run on the back.
It worked out and was one of the more fun matches/rounds I’ve played. No one played particularly great (nor terrible) but it was a pretty equal match all around. If it was 18 holes of shamble we’d have been slaughtered though, lol. Vortex was very consistent in all aspects of the game and Hoosiermess has a solid short game, so much so that if he can straighten out his driver some his cap will drop very quickly. djt311 has a very consistent game as well. I’m all over the place right now, lol. But this is really traditionally the real start to my golf season as I coach baseball until about the 4th of July (making excuses, lol).
Shamble should probably be played with some percentage for sure, maybe even best ball, but I knew we were in trouble on the front really quickly and just hoped we wouldn’t be too far down to make a run on the back.
It worked out and was one of the more fun matches/rounds I’ve played. No one played particularly great (nor terrible) but it was a pretty equal match all around. If it was 18 holes of shamble we’d have been slaughtered though, lol. Vortex was very consistent in all aspects of the game and Hoosiermess has a solid short game, so much so that if he can straighten out his driver some his cap will drop very quickly. djt311 has a very consistent game as well. I’m all over the place right now, lol. But this is really traditionally the real start to my golf season as I coach baseball until about the 4th of July (making excuses, lol).
Oh no I didn’t mean it in a bad way was just saying it makes it extremely tough especially with one being a par 3. Totally get it.
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I usually only play with pops against my dad. I’ll ask for his current cap and take one or two off our difference. Make sure it’s the same # per side. Tomorrow will probably be 3 per side, playing for lunch and drinks after the round!!
I’m hoping I get to play a round with @Canadan one day and get like 14 pops from him.
- Moderator
- #82
I'm a +1.0 after this weekend. You'll get 4 and like it. lmao
All seriousness though, I'd absolutely LOVE to get a round in with you CK
Right there with ya. Gonna have to make it happen man!!! 4 a side then! Deal!
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mikedean441
6X HOF
What this guy said
- Moderator
- #86
I played w/ him awhile back.....you won’t need 14.
that is adorable.
- Moderator
- #88
Don’t be mad.....chef is a good stick.
I meant the 'played with him a while back' haha
Wasn't that like five years ago? You've been dodging me.
I’ve only gotten better.
Our paths will meet again. Till then Chef is all yours! I get Chef in September!
In team competitions I agree that a percentage of shots should be used rather than full handicap depending on the format, but in single events I have no issue if the number of shots given is the full difference between handicaps, although I have played some where it is 80/90%
Well if Canadan is a +1.0 then I am sure I can accidentally add 1 to my handicap (12) and get 14 shots against him
Well if Canadan is a +1.0 then I am sure I can accidentally add 1 to my handicap (12) and get 14 shots against him
SunnyWalker
Well-known member
pops are fine until they get excessive or the course isn't handicapped correctly.
An example of excessive is 20 handicapper getting a pop on a 100 yard par 3, making a birdie and carding a net 1....
An example of excessive is 20 handicapper getting a pop on a 100 yard par 3, making a birdie and carding a net 1....
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Pops fall where they fall. Not everyone is going to agree with what should be the lowest handicap holes. 3 par 5's at my home course are within the lowest third course handicap holes. Only one of them seems like it should be ranked that low to me and that one is actually the highest of the 3 at 6.
I've been tracking my matches and strokes given with a couple of friends so far this year.
One friend I give 8 strokes to. We play stroke and match. We have both won the same amount of stroke and match bets.
One friend I have given anywhere from 4 to 8 strokes to. We only play match play. I have won 6 times to his 5. We have also agreed that if a stroke hole lands on a par 3 that stroke is move to the next hardest non par 3 hole.
In my experience the handicap system works, if the handicaps are true handicaps.
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One friend I give 8 strokes to. We play stroke and match. We have both won the same amount of stroke and match bets.
One friend I have given anywhere from 4 to 8 strokes to. We only play match play. I have won 6 times to his 5. We have also agreed that if a stroke hole lands on a par 3 that stroke is move to the next hardest non par 3 hole.
In my experience the handicap system works, if the handicaps are true handicaps.
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see if you move that stroke off the Par 3s and one of them ends up on a Par 4, you still make attainable that Net 1 that people seem to dislike for no real legitimate reason
SunnyWalker
Well-known member
It would be a helluva lot harder to make a net 1 on a par 4 than it would be on a 100 yard par 3. They have to hit a drive, they have to hit a second shot off the ground and that shot would probably be longer than the 100yards that they can hit off of a tee on the par 3. So yeah, I'd take my chances giving up 2 pops on the par 4.
highscoreinky
Hope is not a method.
That's how we do it for my club events.
darthweasel
Well-known member
I play with a lot of people, all levels of ability and I can say with confidence that when the mid to high handicapper lands on the green from 100 out, it is an outlier. And will almost always be followed by a shot on the next tee that will take that 3-putt he just did and make it look skillful as he launches the drive either way out of bounds or a 50' topper, by the time he reaches the green he is laying at least 5 and ends up with a snowman just after the birdie (or more likely bogey) he just had on the par 3. There is a reason they/we are a high handicapper and them landing on the green and 1 or 2-putting is not exactly a daily occurrence...there are legit reasons for people to be anti-pop as we have seen, and many of those are actually likely..this does not seem like one of them that will be run into all that often.
Obviously, you may golf with the outlier...
darthweasel
Well-known member
I see lot of people not liking pops and that is fine, it is very much your right and I have neither the means nor intent to change your mind. I do, however, want to at least throw the opposite viewpoint to most expressed on here. I will throw a TLR on there at the end but I find the other info relevant to that point.
As of today I am sitting on a 17.3, trending to a 16.4; my most recent rounds have been an esc 94 on a 6600 yard slope 132, a "did not finish a couple holes such as the one where I rinsed my drive, my third and fifth shots and was at my esc 195 yards from the green" esc 99 on a 6200 yard slope 126, a 7 over on a 4800 yard slope 98, a 94 on the same 6200 yard, and a 90 on that same course (Red Tail is in my head, I keep going there to work on hole 7 and 11, demon holes that should be scorched from the face of the earth). If I were to play today and someone wanted me to play as a 16.4...lets do it. If they want to see me as a 17.3, that is fine too.
If you look at the rounds on my stat page, there are in general two types; at King City, a soft 9-hole course in a retirement community, I typically am 7-15 shots over par for that course. On real courses, regardless of slope my typical score is between 90 and 95. There are three that fall outside that range...an 85, a 99 and a 102. But if I go out 10 times, pretty much 9 of them, regardless of slope, are going to fall in that range: the 102 was at a slope 126 and the 85 at a slope 127. I shot a 90 at a slope 138. Slope doesn't affect my game all that much, I typically land between 90 and 95 regardless.
Yet in competition or in a scramble I am an admittedly dangerous golfer. I do hit my driver measurably longer than the average golfer. I know how to hit every shot...I just don't execute consistently. At Pronghorn I get a lot of pops...and play above my handicap. At Meriwether I get fewer pops...and play below my handicap. And the reason varies from day to day. One day I will be bombing drives 285, average 1.7 putts and the approach game loses me shot after shot after shot...case in point, hole 15 at Red Tail, hit it 279 down the middle, laying 145 out, shanked 9i into the long stuff, hit provisional that came up 50 yards short, never found the provisional. Okay chip, made long putt. A double...and my approach cost me 1-1/2 strokes. And the whole day was like that. I was in position to shoot a high 70s...my driver and putter were money, my chipping was acceptable. And again and again I botched approach shots and shot in the mid 90s.
Next time out my driver got Highlandered on hole 3, and it wasn't because of my subpar 228 average on the day...it was because it was not in play, and I was teeing off with a 7i on par 5s by hole 9 my putting was 2.1 per hole...but my approach game was money. shot the same bleeping score on the same bleeping course.
That is who I am as a golfer. Different parts of my game work on different days. And there are wild swings in my distance. My preferred round of golf is me and a friend or two hitting the ball, hitting some good shots we compliment each other, hitting some bad shots we rib each other mercilessly over, and having a good time. With that said..
They cannot always golf. I do not mind a bit of competition and there are local leagues constantly trying to improve the number of people playing in them. I will go play to support them. When I go, I have zero expectation of winning. I know who I am , I know about where my score will land, and I am good with that. And yet, because it is a competition, I have zero interest in playing someone I know I cannot compete with. I am not trying to play against someone who takes 4 shots to get out of the sand, who slices every second shot and takes a smooth 129.
Nor am I trying to play against the guy who will shoot 70-80. The match is over by hole 2 in either case. If I want to play a competition with a foregone conclusion I will pick up a video game. There is no suspense, no actual competition. And I guaran-smurfing-tee you I will not be playing you for money, ice cream or bragging rights straight up. Not yesterday, not today, not ever.
When there is no relation between abilities, there is no competition. I don't mind playing at a slight disadvantage...I actually find it sharpens my game. Getting 90% of my cap, I don't mind that a bit in stroke play. Much more than that and the outcome is predetermined. Match play maybe a bit more but again...much more than 85% of it, and the outcome tends to be predetermined when I am playing someone much more talented than me.
Prior to injury I played a lot of racquetball. To keep it interesting I would play left handed. Every so often someone would be playing above their head and get ahead of me...once by a score of 12-1. So I switched to my right hand and beat him 15-12. Neither of us was surprised. It was not a real competition, it was running around showing off for me and we all knew it. There was zero doubt about the outcome. And at some point it was fun for neither of us. There was one guy who was competition and I got to where I only played on nights he was there...and vice versa. It is not a lot of fun knowing you can tell people the final score before the game and be right...for either player.
So why do it in golf where there is a system to level it out?
TLR: I don't mind playing a competitive game, but if the opponent(s) have massively different skill levels, I will not do it without pops. It is no longer a competition, it is a predetermined beatdown. I have no desire to be on either end of that. It is not fun humiliating people and it is not fun having no chance.
R on there at the end but I find the other info relevant to that point.As of today I am sitting on a 17.3, trending to a 16.4; my most recent rounds have been an esc 94 on a 6600 yard slope 132, a "did not finish a couple holes such as the one where I rinsed my drive, my third and fifth shots and was at my esc 195 yards from the green" esc 99 on a 6200 yard slope 126, a 7 over on a 4800 yard slope 98, a 94 on the same 6200 yard, and a 90 on that same course (Red Tail is in my head, I keep going there to work on hole 7 and 11, demon holes that should be scorched from the face of the earth). If I were to play today and someone wanted me to play as a 16.4...lets do it. If they want to see me as a 17.3, that is fine too.
If you look at the rounds on my stat page, there are in general two types; at King City, a soft 9-hole course in a retirement community, I typically am 7-15 shots over par for that course. On real courses, regardless of slope my typical score is between 90 and 95. There are three that fall outside that range...an 85, a 99 and a 102. But if I go out 10 times, pretty much 9 of them, regardless of slope, are going to fall in that range: the 102 was at a slope 126 and the 85 at a slope 127. I shot a 90 at a slope 138. Slope doesn't affect my game all that much, I typically land between 90 and 95 regardless.
Yet in competition or in a scramble I am an admittedly dangerous golfer. I do hit my driver measurably longer than the average golfer. I know how to hit every shot...I just don't execute consistently. At Pronghorn I get a lot of pops...and play above my handicap. At Meriwether I get fewer pops...and play below my handicap. And the reason varies from day to day. One day I will be bombing drives 285, average 1.7 putts and the approach game loses me shot after shot after shot...case in point, hole 15 at Red Tail, hit it 279 down the middle, laying 145 out, shanked 9i into the long stuff, hit provisional that came up 50 yards short, never found the provisional. Okay chip, made long putt. A double...and my approach cost me 1-1/2 strokes. And the whole day was like that. I was in position to shoot a high 70s...my driver and putter were money, my chipping was acceptable. And again and again I botched approach shots and shot in the mid 90s.
Next time out my driver got Highlandered on hole 3, and it wasn't because of my subpar 228 average on the day...it was because it was not in play, and I was teeing off with a 7i on par 5s by hole 9 my putting was 2.1 per hole...but my approach game was money. shot the same bleeping score on the same bleeping course.
That is who I am as a golfer. Different parts of my game work on different days. And there are wild swings in my distance. My preferred round of golf is me and a friend or two hitting the ball, hitting some good shots we compliment each other, hitting some bad shots we rib each other mercilessly over, and having a good time. With that said..
They cannot always golf. I do not mind a bit of competition and there are local leagues constantly trying to improve the number of people playing in them. I will go play to support them. When I go, I have zero expectation of winning. I know who I am , I know about where my score will land, and I am good with that. And yet, because it is a competition, I have zero interest in playing someone I know I cannot compete with. I am not trying to play against someone who takes 4 shots to get out of the sand, who slices every second shot and takes a smooth 129.
Nor am I trying to play against the guy who will shoot 70-80. The match is over by hole 2 in either case. If I want to play a competition with a foregone conclusion I will pick up a video game. There is no suspense, no actual competition. And I guaran-smurfing-tee you I will not be playing you for money, ice cream or bragging rights straight up. Not yesterday, not today, not ever.
When there is no relation between abilities, there is no competition. I don't mind playing at a slight disadvantage...I actually find it sharpens my game. Getting 90% of my cap, I don't mind that a bit in stroke play. Much more than that and the outcome is predetermined. Match play maybe a bit more but again...much more than 85% of it, and the outcome tends to be predetermined when I am playing someone much more talented than me.
Prior to injury I played a lot of racquetball. To keep it interesting I would play left handed. Every so often someone would be playing above their head and get ahead of me...once by a score of 12-1. So I switched to my right hand and beat him 15-12. Neither of us was surprised. It was not a real competition, it was running around showing off for me and we all knew it. There was zero doubt about the outcome. And at some point it was fun for neither of us. There was one guy who was competition and I got to where I only played on nights he was there...and vice versa. It is not a lot of fun knowing you can tell people the final score before the game and be right...for either player.
So why do it in golf where there is a system to level it out?
TL
R: I don't mind playing a competitive game, but if the opponent(s) have massively different skill levels, I will not do it without pops. It is no longer a competition, it is a predetermined beatdown. I have no desire to be on either end of that. It is not fun humiliating people and it is not fun having no chance.
SunnyWalker
Well-known member
Not sure about whats going on elsewhere....
I used to belong to a club that had a 100-110 yard par 3. It was by far the easiest hole on the course, no water, a few bunkers. We played in a gaggle with A,B,C, D players. One ball gross, one ball net, combined team score. The high handicappers birdied(and parred) that hole all the time. They made doubles triples and others all the time on the longer par 4's. They needed 2 shots on par 4's a lot more than they a needed a shot on that par 3. Just relating from experience....
Without question I'd prefer playing straight up or gross. I do every time I play in a sense (against the course/myself).
If a competition requires "pops" I will accept it for what it is. I like the (80% match, 100% stroke format). The bigger the skill gap the more likely the matchup will be lopsided. You just have to figure that in.
If a competition requires "pops" I will accept it for what it is. I like the (80% match, 100% stroke format). The bigger the skill gap the more likely the matchup will be lopsided. You just have to figure that in.