MLB Hall of Fame and the Steroid Era

[Templet0n]

Body of work while still part of MLB?
I agree on the steroid era, especially since others are in.
Not sure where I stand on Rose, because he literally hit the fabric of competition with gambling on his own games where he very well could influence the outcome.

So he does not get in as a coach.. Which does not seem like he would have anyway. But dang, it is really hard to argue not being in as a player when Big Papi is in? In sports the baseball hall of fame is the ultimate popularity contest.

 

[bigbov]

Its funny how much I have less issue with Rose not being in (despite amazing accomplishments) than I do with PEDs.

Body of work while still part of MLB?
I agree on the steroid era, especially since others are in.
Not sure where I stand on Rose, because he literally hit the fabric of competition with gambling on his own games where he very well could influence the outcome.

The reason I don't have a problem w/ Rose is from what I understand whenever he bet the Reds he bet them to win. If he were proven to throw games or something then my opinion would change entirely.

 

[JB]

I can see, and totally respect where you are coming from - however, I feel like you could make the argument that taking PEDs is also hitting the fabric of competition as well.

It is, to a degree. Breaking any rule is.
Yet gambling and sports has always been something taboo.

 

[Templet0n]

This is a topic I'm oddly passionate about and a hill I will die on forever. At this point I think the MLB hall of fame is a completely broken concept and just needs torn down and restarted.

The writers have been historically bad at electing players. Even in the first ballot, no one was unanimous. I think about that a lot. The writers founded this institution, decided who gets to vote, who is eligible, and guys like Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth were not 100% selections. Which then started the whole "if Babe Ruth didn't get 100% , then no one should" stupidity we've dealt with forever. Then in the 1950s Joe DiMaggio didn't get elected on the first ballot and we had to deal with 'if DiMaggio isn't a first ballot guy, then no one is" mentality. The writers also used to have a saying - "If I have to think about it, the answer is no" for those who are worthy.

Then there was the train wreck that was the 2013 ballot. On what could've been the greatest hall class ever, no one got elected in a sham protest vote. No less than 8 players on that ballot - Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Sosa, Schilling, Biggio, Kenny Lofton, and David Wells had strong arguments to be inducted into the hall. I would consider at least 4 of those names to be slam dunk candidates. We've had to deal with an overstuffed ballot ever since. The writers have essentially invalidated an entire generation of players by refusing to elect anyone (but David Ortiz) even closly related to PED use, held back candidates for years that were even suspected, and even the clean players still get a mark because they played in you know, that era.

The Veterans committee is also a failure. It had generally just been a tool for the already enshrined players to elect their buddies. Go look up the Frankie Frisch All-Stars. Basically every HoFer you've never heard of that was elected in the 1950s through early 70s was the responsibility of this guy. It was essentially the same thing in 2019 when we saw Harold Baines get elected. The committee that elected him contained the GM that drafted him, two GMs that signed/traded for him, two former managers, and at least one teammate. He just had the numbers. Add to the politics, the fact that now the veterans committees are tasked with correcting the oversight of the writers, and they are an ill constructed and overwhelmed body.

I would like to see a much more inclusive Hall, with a tiered structure. And yes, Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame. As this is getting long, I'm going to close with a list of juiced era players I think belong in the hall. And I love talking baseball and will talk about anyone or anything with the game. You can @ at me all day and I'll talk.

C - Jorge Posada
1B: McGwire, Helton, Palmeiro, Giambi, Delgado, Mattingly, Andres Galarraga
2B: Lou Whitaker
3B: Matt Williams (Scott Rolen is not a HoFer)
SS: Garciaparra
LF: Bonds, Manny, Albert Belle
CF: Dale Murphy, Jim Edmonds, Bernie Williams, Kenny Lofton
RF: Sosa, Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, Sheffield
SP: Clemens, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Doc Gooden, Schilling, Saberhagen, Hershiser
CP: Billy Wagner, Quisenberry, John Franco

Jorge Posada juiced?? I think you are wrong there....

 

[TRyan]

Jorge Posada juiced?? I think you are wrong there....

He said juiced era players - That is the distinction I think you missed.

 

[JB]

So he does not get in as a coach.. Which does not seem like he would have anyway. But dang, it is really hard to argue not being in as a player when Big Papi is in? In sports the baseball hall of fame is the ultimate popularity contest.

But its one and the same.
I guess my thought is he knew the rules, and knew the punishment was banning. Step away.
It was before the social media era, we have no idea what he was doing while playing sadly, just that he was caught while managing.

 

[Templet0n]

He said juiced era players - That is the distinction I think you missed.

gotcha.. Early in the morning and it was a long post. lol

 

[AndyL0711]

if there is proof they did it, then NOPE!!!!

if the greatest hitter of all time will never get in, then these cheaters should never get in either

and yes i mean Pete Rose

 

[ttucliffhanger]

let them in!

 

[JB]

Jorge Posada in the hall of fame as what?
A good catcher that won only a handful of silver slugger awards? He was very good, but no chance he deserves to be in the hall of fame.

 

[Templet0n]

But its one and the same.
I guess my thought is he knew the rules, and knew the punishment was banning. Step away.
It was before the social media era, we have no idea what he was doing while playing sadly, just that he was caught while managing.

I agree. I dont like Rose either. But still feel he should be in. I guess sports betting is the "honor among thieves" line.. I get it. It is kind of a weird one to me. But I get it.

 

[Templet0n]

Jorge Posada in the hall of fame as what?
A good catcher that won only a handful of silver slugger awards? He was very good, but no chance he deserves to be in the hall of fame.

As I huge Yankees fan. I love Jorge. He was super clutch and one of the best hitting catchers in the game. He was really good. But! by comparison to other catchers on a whole. I am not sure he belongs..

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I can see, and totally respect where you are coming from - however, I feel like you could make the argument that taking PEDs is also hitting the fabric of competition as well.

That's kind of the problem. Is that the punishment levied against the players of the 1980s through early 2000s does not match up with the reality of the sport. Basically baseball was always dirty. We know there were uses of PEDs going back to the 1800s. And we know Babe Ruth once missed a chunk of a season because he got sick from injecting him self with sheep testicle extract. Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Mike Schmidt all knowingly used and admitted to using amphetamines throughout their careers. (which baseball's PED rules treat all substances the same, so steroids are not treated any differently than stimulants or 'greenies - they're all equally bad and receive the same punishments).

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5314753

Bonding With the Babe

Bashing Barry Bonds has become a national sport, as the flawed slugger nears matching Babe Ruth's record. But hasn't anyone considered the faults of the Babe?

www.thenation.com

Baseball has always been a dirty sport and the writers are nothing more than complicient hypocrites.

 

[TRyan]

This is a topic I'm oddly passionate about and a hill I will die on forever. At this point I think the MLB hall of fame is a completely broken concept and just needs torn down and restarted.

The writers have been historically bad at electing players. Even in the first ballot, no one was unanimous. I think about that a lot. The writers founded this institution, decided who gets to vote, who is eligible, and guys like Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth were not 100% selections. Which then started the whole "if Babe Ruth didn't get 100% , then no one should" stupidity we've dealt with forever. Then in the 1950s Joe DiMaggio didn't get elected on the first ballot and we had to deal with 'if DiMaggio isn't a first ballot guy, then no one is" mentality. The writers also used to have a saying - "If I have to think about it, the answer is no" for those who are worthy.

Then there was the train wreck that was the 2013 ballot. On what could've been the greatest hall class ever, no one got elected in a sham protest vote. No less than 8 players on that ballot - Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Sosa, Schilling, Biggio, Kenny Lofton, and David Wells had strong arguments to be inducted into the hall. I would consider at least 4 of those names to be slam dunk candidates. We've had to deal with an overstuffed ballot ever since. The writers have essentially invalidated an entire generation of players by refusing to elect anyone (but David Ortiz) even closly related to PED use, held back candidates for years that were even suspected, and even the clean players still get a mark because they played in you know, that era.

The Veterans committee is also a failure. It had generally just been a tool for the already enshrined players to elect their buddies. Go look up the Frankie Frisch All-Stars. Basically every HoFer you've never heard of that was elected in the 1950s through early 70s was the responsibility of this guy. It was essentially the same thing in 2019 when we saw Harold Baines get elected. The committee that elected him contained the GM that drafted him, two GMs that signed/traded for him, two former managers, and at least one teammate. He just had the numbers. Add to the politics, the fact that now the veterans committees are tasked with correcting the oversight of the writers, and they are an ill constructed and overwhelmed body.

I would like to see a much more inclusive Hall, with a tiered structure. And yes, Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame. As this is getting long, I'm going to close with a list of juiced era players I think belong in the hall. And I love talking baseball and will talk about anyone or anything with the game. You can @ at me all day and I'll talk.

C - Jorge Posada
1B: McGwire, Helton, Palmeiro, Giambi, Delgado, Mattingly, Andres Galarraga
2B: Lou Whitaker
3B: Matt Williams (Scott Rolen is not a HoFer)
SS: Garciaparra
LF: Bonds, Manny, Albert Belle
CF: Dale Murphy, Jim Edmonds, Bernie Williams, Kenny Lofton
RF: Sosa, Canseco, Juan Gonzalez, Sheffield
SP: Clemens, Kevin Brown, David Cone, Doc Gooden, Schilling, Saberhagen, Hershiser
CP: Billy Wagner, Quisenberry, John Franco

Matt Williams over Rolen? Based on what?

OPS+ - Rolen's was better
OPS - Rolen
RBIS - Rolen
OBP - Rolen
WAR - Rolen by a MILE
Defensive WAR - Rolen
SLG - Rolen

 

[JB]

As I huge Yankees fan. I love Jorge. He was super clutch and one of the best hitting catchers in the game. He was really good. But! by comparison to other catchers on a whole. I am not sure he belongs..

Under 300 HR
Career average under .275
Only in 5 all star games.
He won, and was on great teams.

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

To think there was a “steroid era” and it ended and players today are clean is hysterical. PEDs are rampant in sports, and always will be regardless of how you classify them.

Let them all in. Everyone uses advantages in one way or another.

Think about that - just this year with Bryce Harper returning from his rotator cuff injury. We know exactly how long it takes the human body to recover from this surgery. Yet here he is, back on the field months earlier than he should be. And no one questions how this is possible? It's possible through drugs.

 

[Templet0n]

Under 300 HR
Career average under .275
Only in 5 all star games.
He won, and was on great teams.

I agree. He was pretty clutch (hard to put stats to that) and was a good switch hitter when that was more of a thing and batted with no gloves... Got to love that.. lol. But, I think he falls short.

 

[JB]

I agree. He was pretty clutch (hard to put stats to that) and was a good switch hitter when that was more of a thing and batted with no gloves... Got to love that.. lol. But, I think he falls short.

If he was the best of the era, I think the argument could be made. But with Pudge and Piazza of similar time, it would be really hard.

 

[TRyan]

Catcher is a tricky position. There are so few of them in the HOF relative to other positions

 

[JB]

Matt Williams over Rolen? Based on what?

OPS+ - Rolen's was better
OPS - Rolen
RBIS - Rolen
OBP - Rolen
WAR - Rolen by a MILE
Defensive WAR - Rolen
SLG - Rolen

While I agree, you could make the case that for the decade of the 90s, 90-99, Matt Williams was insane. More than half of those years he had over 30 HRs. By comparison I think Rolen did that once, maybe twice in his entire career. With that said, I think most would agree Rolen is very deserving of everything he has gotten including election into the hall of fame.

 

[Templet0n]

If he was the best of the era, I think the argument could be made. But with Pudge and Piazza of similar time, it would be really hard.

Yep. those were the names that came to my mind as well. This conversation is bringing back so many baseball memories.. lol.

 

[TRyan]

While I agree, you could make the case that for the decade of the 90s, 90-99, Matt Williams was insane. More than half of those years he had over 30 HRs. By comparison I think Rolen did that once, maybe twice in his entire career. With that said, I think most would agree Rolen is very deserving of everything he has gotten including election into the hall of fame.

I don't disagree - Matt Williams was insanely talented. I was moreso just pointing out that if someone thinks Rolen is NOT a HOFer - Then Williams shouldn't be either.

 

[AndyL0711]

Think about that - just this year with Bryce Harper returning from his rotator cuff injury. We know exactly how long it takes the human body to recover from this surgery. Yet here he is, back on the field months earlier than he should be. And no one questions how this is possible? It's possible through drugs.

but not PED's

 

[Parrot]

I know he isn't a PED linked player but I saw Mattingly's named mentioned. He had a very good to great 6 year run with a couple of pretty decent seasons a few years later. Is that enough over a 14 year career? I like Mattingly as a player but I don't think it is.

 

[TRyan]

I know he isn't a PED linked player but I saw Mattingly's named mentioned. He had a very good to great 6 year run with a couple of pretty decent seasons a few years later. Is that enough over a 14 year career? I like Mattingly as a player but I don't think it is.

He had an ELITE peak - Was the best 1st baseman in baseball for that stretch - but I am not sure the longevity was there for him.