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Cast vs Forged - The Master Debate

SuperStroke
Gaijin_Golfer said:
Honestly, JB, Ive worked with engines enough and seen enough broken engine parts that were cast and saw the air pockets in the parts to not believe that golf clubs are any different.
Have cast clubs gotten better in recent years? Yes but with a cast product there are certain things such as the air pockets and inconsistencies in the metal that you arent able to avoid. Its just the nature of which process you choose and having certain tradeoffs with that process.
Ive played many sets of cast clubs and theyre not bad clubs, theyre very good actually but the sound at impact is completely different.
Forged and cast clubs are different on a molecular level because of the way their shapes are formed: poured into a mold vs pounded into shape.
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First let me say I think Mizuno stuff is great and they make gorgeous stuff. Buy beyond the sound issue with cast clubs, if these air pockets cause inconsistent ball flight, why would players whose income is determined by their performance play cast clubs? Are they misinformed? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ I'm just putting it out there...
 
Everybody I've let hit my i20's (cast) have oooh'd and aaahh'd over how ridiculously soft they felt at impact.

You know what I love though. The fact that when I'm hitting "buttery" soft mid irons into greens 10 years from now the grooves will still be preserved and the metal will not be worn down to a rusty pulp!


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I don't care what they cutout of it. Tye process does not make the metal feel any different.
 
If the metals used are the same and the head shapes are the same, how could anything make a difference.
 
Let me ask this. If I took a MP-69 and melted it down to its liquid form and poured into a mold, would the club be any different?
 
COLT said:
Everybody I've let hit my i20's (cast) have oooh'd and aaahh'd over how ridiculously soft they felt at impact.

You know what I love though. The fact that when I'm hitting "buttery" soft mid irons into greens 10 days from now the grooves will still be preserved and the metal will not be worn down to a rusty pulp!
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FIFY mate : p
 
blugold said:
Let me ask this. If I took a MP-69 and melted it down to its liquid form and poured into a mold, would the club be any different?
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Yes!! Because to achieve the Mizzy feel you would have to do this atop Mount Fuji. Plus when you heat up the metal you are going to evaporate most of the butter that was originally melted into the forging.


Tapping and crashing with the new updated/downgraded Tapatalk.
 
Super Tuna said:
FIFY mate : p
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True. I am attracted to fairway bunkers. They take their toll quickly.


Tapping and crashing with the new updated/downgraded Tapatalk.
 
blugold said:
If the metals used are the same and the head shapes are the same, how could anything make a difference.
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Differences in crystalline structure will change the material response. Larger crystals will lead to a more pliable metal. Large variations in crystal size in a single block of metal will also change the feel as vibrational energy will not propagate evenly through the material.

Something to keep in mind is the treatment processes after initial forming. Heating allows crystals to grow and the cooling cycle determines surface hardness. Rapid quenching leads to a hard surface while gradual cooling creates a more even material.

Machining causes surface hardening and increases material stress that can affect performance and feel. So let's say that one club is cast and needs little surface treatment while another is forged and needs to have the cavity cut out in the back. Without any other changes, the forged club will likely have a stiffer back face.

Another thing to consider is the difference that results from the two manufacturing processes. With cast metal, very little is done after initial shaping to finish it, hence reduced production times and lower costs. However, there is a much higher probability of uneven distribution of crystalline structure and impurities in the cast metal than in a forged item. Forging literally pounds the soft metal into shape, a bit like kneading dough. This has the effect of restructuring the crystals and at the same time spreading any minor impurities around, reducing their effects by reducing their localized concentrations. In addition, manually working the metal can change its critical point, which affects its flexibility and numerous other factors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system

Just a quick overview of some materials engineering and by no means a complete description of what's happening inside.
 
TrapShot said:
Differences in crystalline structure will change the material response. Larger crystals will lead to a more pliable metal. Large variations in crystal size in a single block of metal will also change the feel as vibrational energy will not propagate evenly through the material.

Something to keep in mind is the treatment processes after initial forming. Heating allows crystals to grow and the cooling cycle determines surface hardness. Rapid quenching leads to a hard surface while gradual cooling creates a more even material.

Machining causes surface hardening and increases material stress that can affect performance and feel. So let's say that one club is cast and needs little surface treatment while another is forged and needs to have the cavity cut out in the back. Without any other changes, the forged club will likely have a stiffer back face.

Another thing to consider is the difference that results from the two manufacturing processes. With cast metal, very little is done after initial shaping to finish it, hence reduced production times and lower costs. However, there is a much higher probability of uneven distribution of crystalline structure and impurities in the cast metal than in a forged item. Forging literally pounds the soft metal into shape, a bit like kneading dough. This has the effect of restructuring the crystals and at the same time spreading any minor impurities around, reducing their effects by reducing their localized concentrations. In addition, manually working the metal can change its critical point, which affects its flexibility and numerous other factors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system

Just a quick overview of some materials engineering and by no means a complete description of what's happening inside.
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I don't know enough about chemistry and physics to argue with any of the above so I will accept it all as fact. Yet when you give a cast and forged club of identical design with the same shaft and same grip to a tour pro - they can't tell the difference.
 
Sure and that's what's really important. There might be subtle differences in the materials, but what does it matter if they feel basically the same and play the same? Most people probably couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged just from feel. Sound might be a different story.
 
TrapShot said:
Differences in crystalline structure will change the material response. Larger crystals will lead to a more pliable metal. Large variations in crystal size in a single block of metal will also change the feel as vibrational energy will not propagate evenly through the material.

Something to keep in mind is the treatment processes after initial forming. Heating allows crystals to grow and the cooling cycle determines surface hardness. Rapid quenching leads to a hard surface while gradual cooling creates a more even material.

Machining causes surface hardening and increases material stress that can affect performance and feel. So let's say that one club is cast and needs little surface treatment while another is forged and needs to have the cavity cut out in the back. Without any other changes, the forged club will likely have a stiffer back face.

Another thing to consider is the difference that results from the two manufacturing processes. With cast metal, very little is done after initial shaping to finish it, hence reduced production times and lower costs. However, there is a much higher probability of uneven distribution of crystalline structure and impurities in the cast metal than in a forged item. Forging literally pounds the soft metal into shape, a bit like kneading dough. This has the effect of restructuring the crystals and at the same time spreading any minor impurities around, reducing their effects by reducing their localized concentrations. In addition, manually working the metal can change its critical point, which affects its flexibility and numerous other factors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system

Just a quick overview of some materials engineering and by no means a complete description of what's happening inside.
Click to expand...

These are all things that would matter if we were hitting a ball that was as or nearly as hard as the metal. However, a golf ball is so soft there is no way for it to have an effect on the integrity of the club. And we're not talking integrity of the club here because in the end the forging would still lose out (see bag chatter). We are talking FEEL. Feel and flight. And those properties are not affecting the flight or feel.


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Yeah I still don't believe that any of that actually leads to any precievable difference in the clubs. It is a placebo effect. Because we have been told that there is a difference we think we feel a difference. If the metals are the same and the heads are the same, I bet the irons feel the same.

I wish we could stamp "forged" on a cast club and listen to the butter lovers talk about how soft and forgey the club feels.
 
TrapShot said:
Sure and that's what's really important. There might be subtle differences in the materials, but what does it matter if they feel basically the same and play the same? Most people probably couldn't tell the difference between cast and forged just from feel. Sound might be a different story.
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I also disagree with this. If the metals and headshape were the same, I bet the clubs would sound the same.
 
I was just on the phone with golftown about having a set of Nike VR Pro Cavities bent for lie angle and they said they couldn't because they're not forged.... durrrrrr
 
I think the fact that OEMs want no part of a blind test says it all. Forged is a word that means "higher profit margins" to them. If they truly believed and knew that forged were "better" clubs they would want it to be proven.
 
RatFink said:
I was just on the phone with golftown about having a set of Nike VR Pro Cavities bent for lie angle and they said they couldn't because they're not forged.... durrrrrr
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I hear you. Ignorance about golf equipment where I live is unreal. There is hardly a time that I walk into Golftown and don't hear the employees telling a customer or myself something that completely wrong. Last time I was there we were talking about the feel of the i20's and apparently Ping uses, 'a very soft metal', to make these! I just smiled and nodded...what's the point?
 
I do feel a difference. I think most forged clubs I have owned in the past are indeed softer or have a more muted feel than some cast clubs.

What is better, is all personal preference, but I do think there is a sound/feel difference. There is certainly more to an iron that just the feedback given.
 
I can't really tell the difference - I played my PING S56's yesterday and hit them very well after having played my Callaway Musclebacks all season. I love them both
 
Oh this topic, just when you think the horse is dead....BAM!

This debate has always made me laugh, maybe I'm just jealous my irons weren't forged high upon a mountain by samurai? Hehe

Different stroke for different folks, I know.


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Quite an interesting topic that's quite insightful!

Having played CG7's, AP2 710's, CG7 Tours as my iron sets as well as hitting Ping Anser's, I20's, MP52's and a few more, I can tell a big difference from the feel of the cast/forged clubs listed about. I think it's all down to how people perceive what they are feeling. We all feel different about different things.

I actually really like the hit of my CG7 Tours but over all, have to say the feel of the AP2's is outstanding. (Awaits the bashing!)
 
Back in September I played golf with a smart guy from Oklahoma. He equates feel as "sound is feel".

Again, if the headshape and metals were the same between a cast and forged club, I bet they would sound and feel the same.
 
blugold said:
Back in September I played golf with a smart guy from Oklahoma. He equates feel as "sound is feel".

Again, if the headshape and metals were the same between a cast and forged club, I bet they would sound and feel the same.
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That guy sounds INSANE.

Hehehe

**EDIT**

This is what I get for using my wifes laptop. I didn't even know she had an account. I could be in trouble. - Jman
 
MandaJoMiles said:
That guy sounds INSANE.

Hehehe

**EDIT**

This is what I get for using my wifes laptop. I didn't even know she had an account. I could be in trouble. - Jman
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Just reinforcing that this was me. Nice that I had to make my wife's first post. Ha!


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MandaJoMiles said:
That guy sounds INSANE.

Hehehe

**EDIT**

This is what I get for using my wifes laptop. I didn't even know she had an account. I could be in trouble. - Jman
Click to expand...

Jman said:
Just reinforcing that this was me. Nice that I had to make my wife's first post. Ha!


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Hahahaha.
 
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